Dow chemical refusing to supply Propylene Glycol to e-cigarette industry

[DrMA]

I think I guessed right. The 'new spin': cigalikes over clearos....

(from the legislation news forum)


http ://www.journalnow.com/business/business_news/local/big-tobacco-makers-want-fda-to-ban-vapor-e-cigs/article_77b131f5-540d-5f02-927c-733bac751529.html

Yep. All of our worst fears wrapped up in a neat package, including all the usual FUD from the ANTZ and BT.

Next up: ban brownies, unless pre-made and sealed in tamper-proof packaging. Otherwise people may put unspeakable things into home-made brownies and children may get a hold of one and progress to being ANTZ, or worse.

 

[Kent C]

Yep. All of our worst fears wrapped up in a neat package, including all the usual FUD from the ANTZ and BT.

Next up: ban brownies, unless pre-made and sealed in tamper-proof packaging. Otherwise people may put unspeakable things into home-made brownies and children may get a hold of one and progress to being ANTZ, or worse.

When you have RJR (in their comment to FDA) and Dow (who supplies them with PG/VG for their cigs) and now this report - it's a good chance the 'new word' has gone out. Expect more attacks on clearos, rebuildables, cotton, kanthal, sub-ohm, etc. the new 'poison'

 

[Kent C]

http ://www.dallasnews.com/lifestyles/health-and-fitness/20140908-e-cigarettes-and-vaping-how-safe.ece

4 hours ago

in bold in the piece...
"Some powerful e-cigarettes, commonly known as tank systems, do heat nicotine liquid hot enough to produce cancer-causing carcinogens in their vapor, researchers from Georgetown University found."

I like the comment on the 'gateway effect' mentioned:

"cause a switch to smoking an actual cigarette..."
Sorry, that is like claiming that drinking a fine wine can cause a switch to drinking sterno.. Possible? Well, anything is possible.. Probable? Not really.
Eat a piece of candy or a cookie.. nice flavor, right? Now lick a used ashtray.. Yeah, its that different..

 

[DrMA]

So, is this the birth of a new meme? "Tanks will kill your children" oh, the irony! First we shot ourselves in the foot with the "cigarette" terminology. Now the word "tank" is being used against us.

 

[Kent C]

So, is this the birth of a new meme? "Tanks will kill your children" oh, the irony! First we shot ourselves in the foot with the "cigarette" terminology. Now the word "tank" is being used against us.

Looks like 'tanks', 'tubes' clearos, iow, anything not a cigalike and with the added point - that since tanks can be refilled - 'who knows' what will be put in them!?!, whereas with cigalikes, the cartos are not intended to be refilled (at least from RJR) - ie. better to regulate them and the nicotine, etc. let alone keep the price of them up without other choices.

All of this conforms quite well with the deeming and how Zeller and others have described the 'components'.

a nod to dragonpuff for the quoting above....

 

[Mowgli]

Does anyone have the list of carcinogens that BT's tamperproof coffin nails contain?

We know what they'll put in cigalikes: see aforementioned list

 

[Kent C]

Does anyone have the list of carcinogens that BT's tamperproof coffin nails contain?

We know what they'll put in cigalikes: see aforementioned list

List of cigarette smoke carcinogens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.... but there are some 'tumor promoters' and 'co-carcinogens' (not carcinogenic in and of themselves) in there... read this;

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...er-like-normal-cigarettes-3.html#post13782313

post#24

 

[Jimi D.]

https://www.facebook.com/EcigHangsen/info It says here Hangsen uses DOW.

 

[readeuler]

"Some powerful e-cigarettes, commonly known as tank systems, do heat nicotine liquid hot enough to produce cancer-causing carcinogens in their vapor, researchers from Georgetown University found."

Now I know the search feature is busted, since when I search the forum for "tank system" I only find posts like this. I know all the cool kids are using tank-systems and talking about them; I just know it!

 

[Kent C]

Now I know the search feature is busted, since when I search the forum for "tank system" I only find posts like this. I know all the cool kids are using tank-systems and talking about them; I just know it!

Lol.. RJR referred to them as 'Open systems'. You won't find that either

 

[DrMA]

Lol.. RJR referred to them as 'Open systems'. You won't find that either

Same fight as in "open source" gradually replacing proprietary software. The consumer public are beginning to realize price is no guarantee of quality and that crowd creativity trumps big business R&D.

 

[Nate760]

"Some powerful e-cigarettes, commonly known as tank systems, do heat nicotine liquid hot enough to produce cancer-causing carcinogens in their vapor, researchers from Georgetown University found*."

* as long as you dry burn the coil at least 400 degrees in excess of normal operating temperature

 

[dragonpuff]

http ://www.dallasnews.com/lifestyles/health-and-fitness/20140908-e-cigarettes-and-vaping-how-safe.ece

4 hours ago

in bold in the piece...
"Some powerful e-cigarettes, commonly known as tank systems, do heat nicotine liquid hot enough to produce cancer-causing carcinogens in their vapor, researchers from Georgetown University found."

I like the comment on the 'gateway effect' mentioned:

"cause a switch to smoking an actual cigarette..."
Sorry, that is like claiming that drinking a fine wine can cause a switch to drinking sterno.. Possible? Well, anything is possible.. Probable? Not really.
Eat a piece of candy or a cookie.. nice flavor, right? Now lick a used ashtray.. Yeah, its that different..

I thought it was odd that all the negative and fear-mongering parts of the article were in bold as if to say, don't pay too much mind to the semi-positive information in the first part of the article, because this is all you really need to know (emphasis added).

And the last two sentences of the article: "Just be aware that nicotine is a potentially addictive substance. It can be easy to convert to smoking cigarettes.” (Oh yeah? In what universe?) There's a little trick in writing - the first and last sentences of each paragraph, and especially of the article, are often the parts that will stick in the minds of the reader (as well as anything made to stand out, like a picture caption). The last statement, especially, will linger. So if you were writing an article, that is where you want to put your sticking point - in your closing sentence. They may as well have just made a neon sign that says vaping is a gateway to smoking!

Looks like 'tanks', 'tubes' clearos, iow, anything not a cigalike and with the added point - that since tanks can be refilled - 'who knows' what will be put in them!?!, whereas with cigalikes, the cartos are not intended to be refilled (at least from RJR) - ie. better to regulate them and the nicotine, etc. let alone keep the price of them up without other choices.

All of this conforms quite well with the deeming and how Zeller and others have described the 'components'.

a nod to dragonpuff for the quoting above....

Why thank you I'm glad it led to such an eye-opening discussion. Thank you for decoding the message within it

 

[Kent C]

I thought it was odd that all the negative and fear-mongering parts of the article were in bold as if to say, don't pay too much mind to the semi-positive information in the first part of the article, because this is all you really need to know (emphasis added).

And the last two sentences of the article: "Just be aware that nicotine is a potentially addictive substance. It can be easy to convert to smoking cigarettes.” (Oh yeah? In what universe?) There's a little trick in writing - the first and last sentences of each paragraph, and especially of the article, are often the parts that will stick in the minds of the reader (as well as anything made to stand out, like a picture caption). The last statement, especially, will linger. So if you were writing an article, that is where you want to put your sticking point - in your closing sentence. They may as well have just made a neon sign that says vaping is a gateway to smoking!



Why thank you I'm glad it led to such an eye-opening discussion. Thank you for decoding the message within it

Welcome It seemed a bit odd to me too, then I put the 'filter' of the carto or cartridge of cigalikes and this made more sense IF that is what they're pushing:

A cartridge that aids in attracting and absorbing water molecules from air such as propylene glycol and nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical in any form/dose and in excessive amounts can be lethal.

A tube through which the smoker inhales like cigarette smoke and the nicotine (and other substances) is absorbed into the lungs.

Therefore the lethal nicotine is safer when so filtered?? At any rate it looks like an assault on the 'open system/tank system/gen 2 and 3 systems' to me, along with the 'higher wattages' which 'cause' metal to be inhaled ... with all else that is said. Should be interesting to see if that particular attack continues.

 

[dragonpuff]

Welcome It seemed a bit odd to me too, then I put the 'filter' of the carto or cartridge of cigalikes and this made more sense IF that is what they're pushing:

A cartridge that aids in attracting and absorbing water molecules from air such as propylene glycol and nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical in any form/dose and in excessive amounts can be lethal.

A tube through which the smoker inhales like cigarette smoke and the nicotine (and other substances) is absorbed into the lungs.

Therefore the lethal nicotine is safer when so filtered?? At any rate it looks like an assault on the 'open system/tank system/gen 2 and 3 systems' to me, along with the 'higher wattages' which 'cause' metal to be inhaled ... with all else that is said. Should be interesting to see if that particular attack continues.

Yeah I think you might be on to something there especially with the recent call from Reynolds to ban tank systems. And here I was just figuring that they had no idea what they were talking about and didn't care enough to look into it

 

[Kent C]

Yeah I think you might be on to something there especially with the recent call from Reynolds to ban tank systems. And here I was just figuring that they had no idea what they were talking about and didn't care enough to look into it

I kinda wish you were right

 

[shgilman]

Okay people,
I got a response from DOW Chemical regarding why they have refrained from selling PG to the e cig industry. The following is a partial of the email:


A list of non-supported or non-recommended applications for these Dow products has been developed, primarily based on:
• Regulations that may restrict product use.
• Concern for potential inappropriate exposure or contact with the product.
• Dow policy on specific applications, such as use in tobacco or medical devices.
• The potential for hazardous circumstances to arise.
Based on the above concerns and policies, Dow will not sample these products in specific applications, will not knowingly sell these products for use in specific applications, will make efforts to transition customers to appropriate products if possible, and will exit existing sales if necessary to support this position.
The following applications are not supported or recommended by Dow:
• Propylene glycols are not recommended for use in the generation of artificial smoke / theatrical fogs, as exposures exceeding established exposure guidelines could occur.
o This includes applications such as artificial/e-cigarettes.

 

[Nate760]

A list of non-supported or non-recommended applications for these Dow products has been developed, primarily based on:
• Regulations that may restrict product use.
• Concern for potential inappropriate exposure or contact with the product.
• Dow policy on specific applications, such as use in tobacco or medical devices.
• The potential for hazardous circumstances to arise.
Based on the above concerns and policies, Dow will not sample these products in specific applications, will not knowingly sell these products for use in specific applications, will make efforts to transition customers to appropriate products if possible, and will exit existing sales if necessary to support this position.
The following applications are not supported or recommended by Dow:
• Propylene glycols are not recommended for use in the generation of artificial smoke / theatrical fogs, as exposures exceeding established exposure guidelines could occur.
o This includes applications such as artificial/e-cigarettes.

There's so much nonsense here I scarcely know where to begin in attacking it.

1. Doesn't the above list embrace pretty much every single thing for which PG is commonly used?

2. This would seem to be a rare case where a manufacturer considers its own product to be manifestly more harmful than the government's public health authorities do, as there exist multiple decades of clinical data on PG exposure, and FDA/CDC/et al. have never been impelled to identify any cause for concern in terms of human health.

3. Let me see if I have this straight: it's okay to pump PG through the ventilation system of every hospital in the industrialized world, but if you use it for the purpose of making theatrical fog, then it magically becomes a health risk?

4. I have a hard time believing they typed any of this with a straight face, and I'm additionally shocked that it was actually disseminated to a member of the public. It's pretty rare for a company to raise health concerns about a product that has been shown, quite conclusively in fact, to pose no particular risk to the health of anyone.

 

[OldSeer]

It's amazing that Propylene Glycol was one of the main weapon used to CLEAN UP the massive major oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico
The reason being is it broke up and cleaned away millions of gallons crude oil... and would not hurt the fish.

That wasn't an INDUSTIAL Propylene THEY used it...because all the life in that contaminated Gulf would have died.

Now they're saying Pharmacu propylene is dangerous ... whew... all the cooked foodstuffs and meals that
we eat wiith PG is it... and now here it has always been contaminated/// now hearing it's dangerous.
What do we do... ??? Tell the folks at all the grocery stores... that they are poisoning us?

 

[shgilman]

I'm NOT quite sure I want to start a pissing contest with DOW.
1. It's a battle I won't win.
2. I believe that there are plenty of other suppliers out there.
I am open to suggestions, but its pretty clear that they do not want anything to do with the industry. I guess I could publish some Op Eds showing how two-faced they are, but to what end
I believe that our efforts should target the support of CASAA and the other groups representing the device and liquid industries. Another reason why I am so passionate about our members joining and supporting CASAA. Joining is easy, free and quick. Donating is simple as I have discovered.
Keep your eye on the media and news forum. I am posting links and partials to some of the studies I come across. I have spoken of Julie at CASAA and I am embarking on a task to catalogue as many clinical studies I can find including the abstract and the source and combining them into a library.
Stay tuned