E-Cigarette Forum Discussion Thread

[MustangSallie]

Duck season...no wabbit season...

I wouldn't mind taking out the moles and whatever else are digging all the holes on my lawn.

 

[MadmanMacguyver]

Moles...or ground squirrels...possible badgers?

a few pics of the holes and any tracks between and I could probably tell...

Mole season anyone?...

 

[kristin]

Props, Miss Kristin!

But this is the part I've been pondering lately:


As I read more there, I've wondered if I've been oversimplifying the terrain of that common ground, projecting too much of my own worldview on it.

There's a distinction between making an actual permanent change to a different behavior and simply refraining from a behavior, there's a difference between depriving ourselves of a thing and indulging in something we like better.

Here, the shared goals we have are very cut-and-dried - reduce or cease the consumption of tobacco cigarettes and use e-cigarettes instead.

Our reasons for wanting to do that tend to be mundane and practical - things like a desire to live longer, avoid diseases, save money, or in my case, wanting to be more physically comfortable.

Whatever beliefs and primordial needs we may have as individuals exist independently of, and are even transcended by what we share, namely those very one-dimensional, temporal goals.

We support and encourage each other in every aspect of achieving them, from the basic ascent up the learning curve to the most minute details of the instruments we'll use to do it.

For the Quitistas, smoking, or ceasing to smoke, takes on a role that's almost symbolic of a larger, more spiritual process, or at least spiritual-adjacent.

I don't mean they don't want to stop smoking, I mean they want to stop smoking in a materially different way, for a whole other layer of reasons.

I'm not sure if it's possible to separate their smoking cessation process from their beliefs or divorce it from those primordial needs.

They don't want to "upgrade" to a behavior or a device that is more pleasurable, they only want to renounce the pleasure of the original one and NOT replace it! That refraining, that renunciation and deprivation, are for them, crucial elements that must exist in order for their process to be in accord with their needs and beliefs.


Merciful sum-up: Any dialogue is good dialogue. Whole entire countries and cultures have been carrying on a variation of that same discussion for centuries on end, with results all over the map. There is common ground. Kristin's post has the potential to be a Turning Point. cigarbabe and Kristin are both awesome.

I've often said that people smoke for different reasons, so people will want to quit for different reasons. It's a myth in the anti-tobacco world that smokers only smoke because they are addicted to nicotine. We weren't addicted to nicotine when we wanted to start smoking, so obviously it was something else that appealed to us.

Americans are infamous for wanting to deny and deprive ourselves of basic pleasures in life. Just look at our attitudes towards sex. Look at what happened in prohibition. Look at the fight against illegal drugs (Just say no???) Pleasure of any kind is sin and to give in to any joy is weakness. Needing or wanting relief from the doldrums, pain or boredom is weakness. Dependency is weakness. Suffering is admirable and strength.

Yet there is an unreasonable double standard. Legal drugs that do the exact same thing as street drugs are ok. Caffeine, which does the exact same thing as smokeless nicotine is ok. People make crap up about what is good or bad and the rest of the lemmings follow. The battle for improving public health by quitting smoking turned into the battle against ALL tobacco and now the battle against nicotine use. It's no longer about health but about not being dependent. The folks on QSMB have made it about beating addiction/dependency rather than about the health effects of smoking. They completely miss the point that the issue of dependency only came up because of the health effects of the SMOKE. The means to an end (quitting nicotine dependence to quit smoking) became the end game (quitting nicotine dependence period, regardless if you are smoking.)

So yes, their whole reasoning for quitting smoking is fundementally different from ours. We want to quit smoking for health reasons, but they want to quit smoking so they are no longer dependant on anything.

The fundamental flaw is the assumption that ALL smokers who visit their site and other quit smoking sites want to quit for the very same reason. The truth is that most people enjoy smoking for other reasons and don't really WANT to quit, they just don't want the health risks. With anything else, a pleasurable, lower risk substitute is acceptable. People don't have a problem with diet soda that is better for you and still tastes as good as sugary soda (having your cake and eating it too.) They don't have a problem if people enjoy the taste of low-fat, sugar-free ice cream in lieu of the fatty, high calorie stuff. Yet, people who enjoy nicotine aren't allowed to enjoy it in a safer manner because we are (gasp!) still dependent. (No more dependent than most people are on their daily coffee drinks, but no matter. Sorry, that ignorant double standard always gets to me.) Of course, mildly depressed people who are dependent upon medications to function are not chided for needing a pick-me-up. (See, it's ok if it's a pharmaceutical stimulant that does the same thing as nicotine.) I guess if you are rich and can afford the drugs from big pharma rather than less well off and buying nicotine, drugs or alcohol it somehow make you better??

I made one last post in that thread regarding the conflict. The one thing Stephanie is missing is that the goal of her fellow members who are causing problems is to chase us off and get our forum over there shut down. So, even if we didn't say "boo" about them over here and stayed in our little assigned corner over there, the negative behavior from the other side isn't going to stop until we are gone from QSMB. She's putting the cart before the horse. Even if we all quit acting out, THEY won't. So I told her - we can't control the behavior of others, we can only control what WE do.

I say we try an experiment. Let's not say anything negative here for a while and post in just our e-cig area on QSMB. Let's prove who is really causing the problems on QSMB!

 

[kristin]

Another great post on the Q board Kristin. You're very good at staying focused and getting your point across.

Thanks Sallie. I actually tend to be very verbose, so maybe I'm getting better, lol!

And thank you to everyone else for your kind kudos about my posts earlier!

 

[MustangSallie]

Hmmm... I never considered badgers, I guess that's possible. My husband swears he saw a chipmunk pop into one the other day. I didn't know chipmunks dug holes in the ground, I thought they just made use of woodpiles and other existing "structures" to live in.

 

[MadmanMacguyver]

thats a ground squirrel then...

if you have a "game" camera set it with a view of the hole... I see a pic I can tell you for sure...otherwise its just educated speculation...I would even have to look to see if you guys have ground squirrels there although I don't see why not...

Hi Kristen....how are you this morning...

 

[MustangSallie]

I've often said that people smoke for different reasons, so people will want to quit for different reasons. It's a myth in the anti-tobacco world that smokers only smoke because they are addicted to nicotine. We weren't addicted to nicotine when we wanted to start smoking, so obviously it was something else that appealed to us.

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I say we try an experiment. Let's not say anything negative here for a while and post in just our e-cig area on QSMB. Let's prove who is really causing the problems on QSMB!

I think it's also a myth believed on the Q board, which is one of the reasons we're having such a difficult time over there.

As to your proposal, I'll go along. I don't believe it will help so I think it will be a short lived experiment, but I will give it my best shot. I think part of the problem here is ANY mention of the Q board will be looked at in a negative light, and since this thread was created to discuss the Q board I also think the mere existence of this thread is a trigger. At least for some. I believe the only way those same few will be happy is if this thread is closed. Of course I'd have to go along with the majority, since it's no fun talking to yourself, but I enjoy posting here and would be sorry to see the thread go inactive or get closed down.

 

[MadmanMacguyver]

don't mind me popping in and out I'm mailman stalking...or in this case mailwoman...

 

[MustangSallie]

thats a ground squirrel then...

if you have a "game" camera set it with a view of the hole... I see a pic I can tell you for sure...otherwise its just educated speculation...I would even have to look to see if you guys have ground squirrels there although I don't see why not...

Okay then, I declare the official opening of ground squirrel season.

And yes, we have a game camera, but my husband probably has to remember which tree on our 20 acres of mostly wooded property he strapped it to last.

EDIT: just checked, we do have one species of ground squirrel in Maine

 

[kristin]

They come into a forum specifically related to quitting with e-cigs and shoot it down and insult people who use them. We have always supported doing what works for the individual (whether that be NRTs, cold turkey, Wellbutrin or even Chantix) and using e-cigarettes if nothing else works for you. We have never shot someone else's method down if it WORKS for them. We tell them it works for us to keep us from smoking and they still shoot it down. Have we EVER told you that you were stupid for using the method you used for achieving your quit? Have we ever insulted you for wanting to be nicotine free the way they insult us for still using nicotine, even though we are smoke free?

That is VERY different. So, yes, you are missing something.

If we wanted to, we could turn the tables on them and say that they were in more danger of relapsing to smoking again than we are. That we don't need support to keep our quit from cigarettes, because our nicotine replacement method keeps us from smoking, while they struggle every day to keep the quit from cigarettes.

But that "nonie-nonie-boo-boo" attitude would be just as cruel as telling someone who proudly no longer smokes cigarettes that they haven't really quit smoking (completely ridiculous) and calling them junkies because they still use the e-cigarettes.

Nearly 40% of nicotine gum users never quit using the gum. Would they be so cruel as to tell those people that they are "still smoking" and berate them for still being "nicotine junkies" or would they just be happy for them that they are still not smoking?

It's a huge double standard against e-cigarette users.

You talk about imposing their success-what do you call it when basically you're doing the same thing by imposing your ideas on quitting with the e cig?? am I missing something??

 

[kristin]

Well, as I pointed out to Steph - the only times this thread even gets in a tizzy about QSMB is when someone over there starts it. Otherwise, we seem to have plenty to talk about, lol!

I don't mean not talking about it at all, just posting here in the same way we would post there (like no "hag" comments, lol!)

If nothing else it will show Steph that we aren't the one's causing the problem.

I think it's also a myth believed on the Q board, which is one of the reasons we're having such a difficult time over there.

As to your proposal, I'll go along. I don't believe it will help so I think it will be a short lived experiment, but I will give it my best shot. I think part of the problem here is ANY mention of the Q board will be looked at in a negative light, and since this thread was created to discuss the Q board I also think the mere existence of this thread is a trigger. At least for some. I believe the only way those same few will be happy is if this thread is closed. Of course I'd have to go along with the majority, since it's no fun talking to yourself, but I enjoy posting here and would be sorry to see the thread go inactive or get closed down.

 

[kristin]

\Hi Kristen....how are you this morning...

Hi MM - doing good but I'm supposed to be working on my grocery list and I got horribly sidetracked!! LOL!

 

[The Big Chief]

I dont think it'll change anything..all we say over here is in response to them over there. And its rare we can even post anywhere BUT the e cig forum over there without some yay-who talking smack. Brad, steph, katie have all proven their persons. None of which I would ever associate with in real life, much less lend a hand. Theyve proven to just be bad people. I dont think theres a cure for for being a bad human being all around.

 

[MustangSallie]

I'm not convinced that Stephanie is a bad person, I think she's just conflicted about e-cigs and sensitive to how others view her and talk about her.

 

[Randyrtx]

I can't post over there so this is my only outlet. But I can go along with the experiment. I've already been refraining from posting what I'd really like to say over the last few days.

What I find the most offensive is to be called junkies and drug pushers, and that we haven't really quit. It's absurd and rediculous. The few over there have taken a personal belief and quote it as science.

And even more offensive is that Fred does nothing to prevent the insults and disruptive posts.

ETA: I agree that Stephanie deep down seems to be a good person, but tends to have a strong double standard when it comes to what she says about others, vs. what is said about herself. If she is going to make insulting remarks about us, she shouldn't complain when we respond in kind.

 

[MadmanMacguyver]

well that has to be a record short mailman stalking...1 1/2 days...

or 2 hrs being I figured it would be here today...

 

[kristin]

Well, even though I have her on ignore, I had to see what she said in response and it confirmed my comments. She doesn't care what we say over here, it is all about a fundamental difference in beliefs about what constitutes "quitting" and she is not going to ever stop trolling our forum over there and calling us names as long as we continue to tell people that we believe e-cigarettes are a great way to quit smoking.

Are you reading this Steph?? No matter how nice we are over there or over here, she won't stop. The buck stops squarely with Katie and her gang. SHE is going to continue to be disruptive and cause problems on YOUR beloved forum and there is nothing we can do about it. So, what do you want to do now, Steph?

 

[kristin]

Me either. I think she is a decent person who cannot see how Katie, et al are the ones really causing the problems. But Katie pretty much just confirmed that no matter how nice we e-cig users are, she will still abuse and insult us. Maybe that will open Steph's eyes a bit.

I'm not convinced that Stephanie is a bad person, I think she's just conflicted about e-cigs and sensitive to how others view her and talk about her.

 

[kristin]

And even more offensive is that Fred does nothing to prevent the insults and disruptive posts.

I agree. It makes me feel like the little kid who's sibling won't stop provoking and when I finally let loose on him, I'M the one who gets punished!

 

[phonedude]

Close this thread? I don't think shutting down this whole forum would make them happy. They didn't want us there. They didn't want any mention of e-cigarettes there.

They lost.

They're bitter.

Life is full of little disappointments.