"e-Cigarette Safety" / Science-Based Medicine

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Vocalek

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Science-based Medicine is a web site that bills itself as "exploring issues and controversies in the relationship between science and medicine.

This story is a discussion of the history of "safer cigarette" claims, the recent BMJ article, and a call for scientific evidence to inform public policy.

"There are two claims for e-cigarettes that need to be investigated: do they help people quit smoking, and what is their overall health risk. Neither question has been adequately answered with scientific research."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3541

There are already 79 comments. Suggest reading through those comments before jumping in, despite the fact that some will make you grit your teeth and reach for your keyboard in frustration.
 

cliff5550

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Although we do seem to take a good thrashing at first, I would say "our side" seems very well represented and supported by many strong well-phrased and thought out arguments and explanations.
And yes, my first inclination was to pounce on the keyboard.
Thanks for the find and the posting Vocalek.
 

htchhikr

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Oct 27, 2009
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Yeah, that is a great comment thread.

It seems as soon as the vaping opponants get called Anti-Smoking Nazi's they run for cover. Perhaps it's because they realize taking PVs away from Millions of Nicotine addicts is the same as putting them back into the GAS CHAMBER of tobacco smoke until it kills them. That didnt work out too well for the Nazi Party in the end.
 

harmony gardens

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Yeah, that is a great comment thread.

It seems as soon as the Vaping opponants get called Anti-Smoking Nazi's they run for cover. Perhaps it's because they realize taking PVs away from Millions of Nicotine addicts is the same as putting them back into the GAS CHAMBER of tobacco smoke until it kills them. That didnt work out too well for the Nazi Party in the end.

Introspection is good medicine. I agree that anti smoking groups have indeed used Nazi-like tactics in thier zeal to marginalize smokers and smoking culture.

If vaping holds the promise of being a safer alternative, what, other than thier own internalized distain for smokers, could make them argue so myopically against something that could be a perfect compromise?
 

PlanetScribbles

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This is a science blog

That was my favourite quote. This coming from the same person that spoke these immortal words ...

They look completely dorky. It ought to be illegal unless you wear your pants above your navel and have at least 4″ of your (white) socks showing

How do you spell the word 'stereotype'? What a complete nimrod.

I suppose they ‘may’ contain strontium 90 or extract of eye of newt. But we base policy on what is, not what may be

Like when it is stated, almost as a matter of fact, that e-cigs are not proven safe so are therefore -by definition- unsafe? Real scientific logic there lmao
 

CaptJay

Vaping Master
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Jan 3, 2010
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A Brit, abroad, (USA)
I wish the people that want to ban us and make us into social lepers *again!* would come read these forums and see all these stories.
People smoking for 40 years giving up without a struggle, nic cravings going down (or away), lung health (to name but one) issues improving.
Anecdotal evidence may not be 'scientific' but its real. Real people with real stories about breaking a habit (smoking cigaretttes) much more easily than ever before.
Real people breaking their nic addictions more easily than ever before.
Why can't they just come read about all this and stop being so negative about something so positive?
:(
 

beingbekah

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Jan 1, 2010
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I'm beginning to think it's all just about feeling superior. They can't look down on us for smelling like an ashtray and periodically hacking up a chunk of lung tissue, so I guess now they have to attack us elsewhere.

I'm an addict, so what? Is that really any reason to look down on me, if what I'm doing cannot possibly cause anyone harm but myself? 90% or more of people are addicted to something, be it caffeine, chocolate, sugar, nicotine, crack, or whatever. Hell, we could argue that we're all addicted to oxygen, food, and water.
 

danielwd

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Oct 5, 2009
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I'm beginning to think it's all just about feeling superior. They can't look down on us for smelling like an ashtray and periodically hacking up a chunk of lung tissue, so I guess now they have to attack us elsewhere.

I'm an addict, so what? Is that really any reason to look down on me, if what I'm doing cannot possibly cause anyone harm but myself? 90% or more of people are addicted to something, be it caffeine, chocolate, sugar, nicotine, crack, or whatever. Hell, we could argue that we're all addicted to oxygen, food, and water.

I've gotten to the point now, with coffee, that if I dont get a cup asap at my work place, then I might as well pack up and go home.

Why am I not judged for that. People just look at this and laugh.

I have a feeling that smoking e-cigs are less harmful than coffee from the studies I read. Not to mention the fact that I pile in 3 huge spoons of sugar and a mound of creamer.
 

kristin

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Well, I read all of the comments! People are lunatics, I swear. Here is my response:

Interesting arguments. I especially like the "save the children" one.

Facts:

1. In nearly 5 years on the world market, there have been no reports of illness or injury due to electronic cigarettes.

2. Ecig users have by and large reported improved health and breathing after switching to ecigs from tobacco smoking.

3. In a survey of 718 ecig users, 84.68% were over the age of 25 and 56.82% were over the age of 35. Consumers of these devices are NOT children nor even college age kids.

4. At least three studies (including one by the FDA) on the vapor have been done and show that the liquid does not contain the most harmful toxins of tobacco smoke - tar, ammonia, arsenic, etc - and contains such a low level of carginogens (or nitrosamines), they are at the same levels as FDA nicotine gum or patches.

5. Fruit and other non-tobacco flavored liquids are also enjoyed by the ADULTS who use the ecig and are largely attributed with the user continuing to use the ecig instead of going back to tobacco. Nearly 46% of ecig users polled (who are largely over the age of 35, mind you, not children) use a non-tobacco or non-menthol flavor. They also report that the flavored liquids made the taste of tobacco smoke repulsive to them, which makes it unlikely that they'll want to switch back to tobacco or that the non-existant, non-previous-smoker ecig users would enjoy the rank taste of tobacco smoke after only ever using candy or fruit-flavored vapor.

6. In a survey of 1,479 ecig users, 82.01% report that they stopped using tobacco cigarettes in favor of the ecig, substantially reducing their exposure to toxic smoke.

7. If ecigs are classified as a tobacco alternative instead of a drug delivery device, they will automatically be illegal to sell to minors in every state in the U.S., so no fear of selling to minors - not that they show any sign of wanting them. As someone said, they look geeky. What kid wants to look geeky? My 16 and 19 year old sons think it's great that I made the switch, but they wouldn't touch one with a 10-foot pole. (They don't smoke, either.)

8. In a survey of 344 ecig users, only .087% reported that they were non-smokers before using ecigs. This strongly indicates that SMOKERS are the consumers for this device and it is NOT attracting new consumers to be addicts, only converting the highest risk group.

9. Nicotine is a low health risk addiction without the toxins in the smoke. What is wrong with an addiction if it's not hurting anyone else and has a small (if any) impact on the health of the actual user?

10. If you ban ecigs, make them too expensive or dilute them to be as effective as FDA-approved NRTs (which have a 7% success rate after 12 months. Chantix has a 44% while being used, but it drops to less than 11% after treatment is ended) people will not simply quit nicotine. They will return to smoking tobacco.

So, what is worse? Letting the real consumers of this device (grown adult smokers) reduce the risks of their addiction to nicotine by allowing them to obtain it from a reasonably safer alternative to tobacco or forcing them to go back to smoking.

Just as a side note to the "save the children" advocates: Kids will always start smoking. Even with flavored tobacco, the largest selling flavor was always menthol for kids, so flavor bans were pointless. If they are going to smoke anyway, wouldn't it make more sense for there to be a safer alternative available for them? And even if it is, do you really think they would use it? By virtue of it being less dangerous for them, doesn't that usually turm a kid off to it in the first place? Chances are a kid will go for a menthol Kool before they go for a peach ecig. Any sane person who was ever a teenager could tell you that.

The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association has a plethora of info on reduced harm for smokers: CASAA | The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-Free Alternatives Association

Please think logically about this. This device doesn't appeal and never will appeal to kids and other non-smokers, unless tobacco cigarettes were banned. And we all know this won't happen.

So, the only people directly affected by this product will by and large be people who were already addicted to nicotine, already smoking and exposing themselves to thousands of dangerous toxins and couldn't possibly be put in harm's way by a little nicotine, propylene glycol and food flavoring.

And think of all the children who will be saved from that exposure when their smoking parents switch to ecigs, too.

Telling a smoker not to use ecigs, because they may contain "some" toxins; is like telling an obese person - who is trying to eat healthier - to go ahead and eat Ben & Jerry's, because frozen yogurt still contains "some" fat.
 

harmony gardens

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Apr 9, 2009
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I wish the people that want to ban us and make us into social lepers *again!* would come read these forums and see all these stories.
People smoking for 40 years giving up without a struggle, nic cravings going down (or away), lung health (to name but one) issues improving.
Anecdotal evidence may not be 'scientific' but its real. Real people with real stories about breaking a habit (smoking cigaretttes) much more easily than ever before.
Real people breaking their nic addictions more easily than ever before.
Why can't they just come read about all this and stop being so negative about something so positive?
:(

Well wished, CaptJay. This is the underlying effect of the Nazi-like marginalization. They have so totally dehumanized smokers and smoking culture, that they don't even believe them capable of making any sound choices.

I wish they could realize the human side of this. Everyone I know can see the difference in me since I started vaping, and I feel the difference. We have a whole forum full of people who feel they have found something that's changing thier lives. Hello,,, does anybody care???

Nice one again Kristin!
 

Kattdaddy

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Science-based Medicine is a web site that bills itself as "exploring issues and controversies in the relationship between science and medicine.

This story is a discussion of the history of "safer cigarette" claims, the recent BMJ article, and a call for scientific evidence to inform public policy.

"There are two claims for e-cigarettes that need to be investigated: do they help people quit smoking, and what is their overall health risk. Neither question has been adequately answered with scientific research."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3541

There are already 79 comments. Suggest reading through those comments before jumping in, despite the fact that some will make you grit your teeth and reach for your keyboard in frustration.

Well, I read all of the comments! People are lunatics, I swear. Here is my response:


You guys seem to always be the most involved and well read. I have traversed through all of that sluree of indifference through-out the sited OT referenced debate. I have researched for the past few months on anything e-cig and have collected quite a bit of interest. My reports are presenting a very big positive for the purpose and weight of the PV to take on the analog as we know it. My second study proved evident that the success rate of e-cigarettes is well over 80% @ 83.45% out of 12,148 ex-smokers now transitioned to vaping who participated in this study. My studies also show that a little over 13% of those participants continued to completely turn away from nicotine and discontinue smoking and vaping.

For the most part, my control group did resume smoking but they were comprised of a simultaneous study by a co-research partner that sponsored 726 smokers in a quit program under three sections: a portion using the patch, a portion using the patch and zyban, and a portion using nicotine gum. They were all held to a fourteen week program and my study ran for four months ( the first two weeks was spent allowing candidates to get used to the product- products were fully supplied up front and only flavorless nicotine Juice was allowed..... at least that was provided free of charge. ) So far, a little over 2000 participants that used the e-cig still smoke but have continued vaping with a reduction in the use of tobacco ( still positive, but anticipated to have at least a 12% overturn of individuals that give in and stop vaping. ) Out of the control group, we had 80 individuals that successfully quit during treatment, a reported 6 individuals that regressed back to smoking to join the 626 in the group that did not positively accept the treament after the second week. ( problems with appetite, skin swelling and irritation, nightmares, panic attacks, irregular palpatations, and various other complications to include excessive stress were markers for the failure rate of these NRTs. )

So, I would appreciate any documentation that you guys could PM to me... Statistics, Relative support information, Just anything that you wouldn't mind building up my library with that can help supply the ammo in my report. Provable criteria and even information of interest to our little community - a lot of which I have but just in case I have missed something.. I just thought that any link to some of this information would be nice of the things that you just have readily saved. I am relatively a new member to the forum but have supported these issues for quite a while longer.

I would like to thank you for your time and your efforts have been much appreciated.

Sincerely,
Tom Martin
 
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kristin

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Aug 16, 2009
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So, I would appreciate any documentation that you guys could PM to me... Statistics, Relative support information, Just anything that you wouldn't mind building up my library with that can help supply the ammo in my report. Provable criteria and even information of interest to our little community - a lot of which I have but just in case I have missed something.. I just thought that any link to some of this information would be nice of the things that you just have readily saved. I am relatively a new member to the forum but have supported these issues for quite a while longer.

I would like to thank you for your time and your efforts have been much appreciated.

Sincerely,
Tom Martin

You can find every relevant study and lab report on the casaa.org web site! :) (The numbers I reported on that post were survey polls of EFC members, which can still be found on this site.)
 

bobbysox10

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Jan 17, 2010
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Kristin said it all. I think this whole big dilemma has to do with money. If these e-cigs really take off, the government is going to be hurting bad. Can you imagine if the kr808d-1, joye 510 and many other were all available at your local gas station, tobacco store, walgreens, cvs etc.. this whole thing would ignite. I think before that happens the word needs to get out more first. My sole worry is tax. When these things become more mainstream the government will tax them to death. Its a known fact.
 

420GypsyGirl

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Jan 4, 2010
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Near a beach in a desert.
This is what I posted on their blog.

@windriven
Your name is definitely right on target you big blow hard. LOL!

As for some of the rest of you that are so quick to condemning a very safe alternative to smoking - three new test are due to be released soon. One from Virginia Tech that will show that electronic cigarettes are in fact 4000 times safer than a cigarette. The test shows that they only found 6 chemicals in the vapor of 2 brands of test e-cigarettes none having any carcinogens. The vapor(not smoke) was found to be 56% to 60% propolyn glycol, the rest was water, nicotine and trace amounts of a flavoring compound used in all kinds of foods and beverages. BTW propolyn glycol has been studied since the 1940's and has been shown time and time again that it is safe and that is why both the EPA and FDA give it a GRAS rating.

If you are worried about nicotine, be careful what you eat. It is found in many vegetables and fruits - like potatoes and tomatoes. The amount of nicotine in exhaled electronic cigarette vapor is on par with that that you find in such natural products.

As for proof that e-cigarettes are good devices to help keep people from smoking harmful regular cigarettes. Two test - again one done by the University of Virginia Tech(which will soon be published in medical journals) did show that all the participants that participated in this test(which had test subjects using patches, gums, inhalers and chantix - alongside electronic cigarettes) that the e-cigarette had a 87% success rate of people to either completely stop smoking regular cigarettes or to cut back substantial during the trial test period(which lasted from Feb to Oct of 2009) and some even stopped the intake of nicotine all together. Other stop smoking methods had 7%, 5%, 2% and 1% stop smoking success.
This test also concluded that a marked improvement in health across the board for those that did stop smoking regular cigarettes and switching to electronic cigarettes was shown via constant monitoring of test subjects via blood, and urine samples and lung capacity over the period of the test. People who had shown signs of high blood pressure due to the smoking of regular cigarettes showed remarkable decrease in their blood pressures over the period of the test.

Toxicity levels normally found in a person that smokes regular cigarettes from blood and urine samples dropped off substantially. Some remained due to possible contaminants found in the very air we all breath (auto exhaust to vapors from cooking - general pollutants from various other sources) but overall the toxicity levels dropped from the levels seen in a normal smoker compared to the test subjects that were using the electronic cigarette.

Hopefully these reports and test results will be published in the coming months to help shed some serious light on this wonderful device that is helping thousands or has helped thousands stop smoking. Which I think all of us can agree on is a very important issue. CDC reports that 400k people each year die because of the effects of smoking regular cigarettes. Think of the number of people whose lives will be prolonged and healthier due to this wonderful device. Also, think of the amount of money that will be saved due to the medical cost of treating people that smoke regular cigarettes - millions of dollars per year.

As a former smoker myself of over 17 years I can attest to the effectiveness that these devices do work. I have stopped smoking completely(smoked a pack a day). I had my last regular cigarette in July of 2009. I have almost stopped vaping as well. My own health has greatly improved. I no longer have high blood pressure. I now jog 2 miles a day! That was not possible when I smoked at all due to fact that my lungs were full of gunk. My taste and smell have also returned to normal.

So as I said, do not be so quick to condemn electronic cigarettes...they might very well truly be a miracle device that will help stop millions from smoking harmful, regular cigarettes in the very near future.

:) You all have a nice day now.

BTW as soon as those reports and studies come out I'll make sure to put a link up to them. I had a rather lengthy talk with one of the scientist from a lab in Minnesota and she was amazed at the results she found. :) I cannot wait for her to publish those results!
 
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