Well, gosh. We don't need a second-source, Phenom. It's right there on their on website in the second link you posted. I can't imagine a much more "reliable source" in that instance. Photography and all. 
E-Cigarettes Deliver Little or No Nicotine, Study Finds
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"Phillip Morris, granted, i don't think that necessarily means the study was "sabotaged" but dang, it don't look good.
It certainly would call into question exactly how "independent" the research was. Same ol' story, really. But identifying bias is important.
First off, the the move against e-cigs is coming in a large part from big pharma, because it is cutting into their smoking cessation drugs and patches.
Secondly, if you mix your own and you put x amount of nicotine in the mixture, it vaporizes, you inhale then where does it go? I have no credible basis upon which to argue the absorbabilty of the nicotine in e-cig vapor other than I smoked for 45 yrs 2 1/2 packs a day and since I started vaping (24 mg, now self mixed) 60 days ago I have not had or desired to have an analog cigarette. I could care less about the science or the wherefores and otherwises or who shot John.
Just one more example of an elite nanny that needs to get a life and leave us alone.
Secondly, if you mix your own and you put x amount of nicotine in the mixture, it vaporizes, you inhale then where does it go? I have no credible basis upon which to argue the absorbabilty of the nicotine in e-cig vapor other than I smoked for 45 yrs 2 1/2 packs a day and since I started vaping (24 mg, now self mixed) 60 days ago I have not had or desired to have an analog cigarette. I could care less about the science or the wherefores and otherwises or who shot John.
Just one more example of an elite nanny that needs to get a life and leave us alone.
I appreciate your position - and your personal results.
"Bioavailability" is, quite literally, the difference between "what you're inhaling" and "where it goes". Even if that doesn't interest or effect you - it is an important question - if for no other reason than making that device you don't have the desire to understand the innerworkings of better, more effective, safer, etc.
I believe information "longs to be free", and I commend Eissenberg his efforts. I just think that today, they're misplaced or misunderstood - and in that; potentially damaging.
"Bioavailability" is, quite literally, the difference between "what you're inhaling" and "where it goes". Even if that doesn't interest or effect you - it is an important question - if for no other reason than making that device you don't have the desire to understand the innerworkings of better, more effective, safer, etc.
I believe information "longs to be free", and I commend Eissenberg his efforts. I just think that today, they're misplaced or misunderstood - and in that; potentially damaging.
Adrenalynn? what about heartbeat? He mentions that at some point in his study; he found no change.
Just anecdotal - but on the evening of the second day vaping (I'd stopped cigarettes immediately, to my surprise) I found that I was using the thing much more effectively and was pretty much chain vaping. I started to feel somewhat uncomfortable - headachy, jittery, queasy, just "off". I assumed without thinking about it much that I was suffering a mild withdrawal, and set to really pulling a lot of vapor in. I felt much worse and wondered if I had a bad cart with not enough nicotine and continued.
It wasn't until I noticed that my heart was racing that I realized that I recognized the symptoms from two previous events - once when I'd accidentally applied two nicotine patches during a quit attempt, and another time when I smoked without remembering to remove the patch. So that's all very subjectiv e, but I immediately took my pulse.
It's usually slow, around 70 - 80. It was racing along at over 130. I was anxious enough to get onto IM with a doctor friend, and he said "definitely nicotine withdrawal, stop vaping immediately for a few hours."
I did, and the symptoms dissipated gradually, although I had difficulty sleeping.
That's not explainable as placebo, ya? Especially as I wasn't anticipating it at all. (I'm aware of how powerful placebo effect is, but I'm really not buying it here.)
Just anecdotal - but on the evening of the second day vaping (I'd stopped cigarettes immediately, to my surprise) I found that I was using the thing much more effectively and was pretty much chain vaping. I started to feel somewhat uncomfortable - headachy, jittery, queasy, just "off". I assumed without thinking about it much that I was suffering a mild withdrawal, and set to really pulling a lot of vapor in. I felt much worse and wondered if I had a bad cart with not enough nicotine and continued.
It wasn't until I noticed that my heart was racing that I realized that I recognized the symptoms from two previous events - once when I'd accidentally applied two nicotine patches during a quit attempt, and another time when I smoked without remembering to remove the patch. So that's all very subjectiv e, but I immediately took my pulse.
It's usually slow, around 70 - 80. It was racing along at over 130. I was anxious enough to get onto IM with a doctor friend, and he said "definitely nicotine withdrawal, stop vaping immediately for a few hours."
I did, and the symptoms dissipated gradually, although I had difficulty sleeping.
That's not explainable as placebo, ya? Especially as I wasn't anticipating it at all. (I'm aware of how powerful placebo effect is, but I'm really not buying it here.)
I'm not a physician - I don't have a medical opinion. Just as a general observation "nicotine withdrawal" would be from doing without. I assume you mean nicotine overdose - ie. too much nicotine.
Many people describe symptoms of mild overdose here. "Fortunately", nicotine is pretty self-regulating unless you do something incredibly stupid (drinking high-nic juice, injecting it, so other stupid form of attempted delivery), or have a _very_ unfortunate accident.
By self-regulating I mean that if we take in too much we start feeling symptoms that make us stop doing whatever we were doing to get there. Elevated heart rate is a precursor for some. Nausea, headache, elevated heartrate or blood-pressure - definite examples. Nicotine is quickly metabolized and passed, so within hours, more or less, any negative effects subside (from an otherwise healthy subject)
Of course, those are also some of the most easily synthesized effects. The brain can exhibit those at will. That said, I believe that yes - excessive vaping probably caused your overdose of nicotine and lead to those symptoms. Difficulty sleeping can be a symptom of over or under dosing, but is typical.
Early on with the convenience of vaping, I found myself exhibiting my early indicators - nausea and malaise. Symptoms I'd also experienced more than a few times by smoking too much.
Correctly used, I believe we'll find it's patently false that "e-cigarettes deliver little or no nicotine" - at least in the case of the devices and juices being delivered to us by V4L (and barring 0mg/ml or Low nicotine juice, of course...)
Many people describe symptoms of mild overdose here. "Fortunately", nicotine is pretty self-regulating unless you do something incredibly stupid (drinking high-nic juice, injecting it, so other stupid form of attempted delivery), or have a _very_ unfortunate accident.
By self-regulating I mean that if we take in too much we start feeling symptoms that make us stop doing whatever we were doing to get there. Elevated heart rate is a precursor for some. Nausea, headache, elevated heartrate or blood-pressure - definite examples. Nicotine is quickly metabolized and passed, so within hours, more or less, any negative effects subside (from an otherwise healthy subject)
Of course, those are also some of the most easily synthesized effects. The brain can exhibit those at will. That said, I believe that yes - excessive vaping probably caused your overdose of nicotine and lead to those symptoms. Difficulty sleeping can be a symptom of over or under dosing, but is typical.
Early on with the convenience of vaping, I found myself exhibiting my early indicators - nausea and malaise. Symptoms I'd also experienced more than a few times by smoking too much.
Correctly used, I believe we'll find it's patently false that "e-cigarettes deliver little or no nicotine" - at least in the case of the devices and juices being delivered to us by V4L (and barring 0mg/ml or Low nicotine juice, of course...)
I am dead certain that this article is false.
I conducted an experiment after exactly 1 week of vaping: I had a single cigarette from a friend. I smoked the whole thing. I waited for the nicotine rush, the one you get when you havent smoked in more than about 18 hours and you finally get a cig.
There was no nic rush, because I had been smoking my VK and my body already had enough nic to make me happy!
There was, however, terrible flavor, coughing, and a carbon monoxide head buzz. These factors were enough to convince me to keep on my course as a former smoker.
I conducted an experiment after exactly 1 week of vaping: I had a single cigarette from a friend. I smoked the whole thing. I waited for the nicotine rush, the one you get when you havent smoked in more than about 18 hours and you finally get a cig.
There was no nic rush, because I had been smoking my VK and my body already had enough nic to make me happy!
There was, however, terrible flavor, coughing, and a carbon monoxide head buzz. These factors were enough to convince me to keep on my course as a former smoker.
I did that to. But not for the same reason. I have never gotten a nicotine buzz from my Vapor king, and that was making me crave cigarettes. So I smoked one, and nothing. I didn't get a nicotine buzz. It's probably because I vape way more then I smoked.
I can easily purchase an AK-47 assault rifle, hand grenades, alcohol, and tobacco, but it is entirely possible that some day I'll have to use a black market to purchase e-juice. This country can be so bass ackwards, what a joke. It's all about $$$$$..
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Adrenalynn, just to clarify: I had initially thought that I was suffering from too little nicotine, which is why I upped inhalations. (There are some overlapping symptoms between nico withdrawal/overdose.)
It wasn't until I checked heartbeat that I realized that I had in fact mildly overdosed.
I was really responding to the highly dubious claim that ecigs deliver no nicotine, as you are - I've been closely following that thread in the other forum as well. Although clearly no nicotine was delivered in his study, for reasons now overstated.
It wasn't until I checked heartbeat that I realized that I had in fact mildly overdosed.
I was really responding to the highly dubious claim that ecigs deliver no nicotine, as you are - I've been closely following that thread in the other forum as well. Although clearly no nicotine was delivered in his study, for reasons now overstated.
u got that right, plus the new additive Fire ......ant that the companies starting putting in about 6 or 7 months ago, gads that ruined the taste for me. Have they done a study on that yet, probably not.
I really feel no difference between 36 mg and 24 mg, I have a friend that we trade juices between each other he uses 36 and I use 24. I think this is great news if eni doesnt deliver nic or the other chems that an analog does and it works for us the FDA should go away and we all will be much healthier.
haytoni... no, he's a legit researcher, and very open and civil, and is to be appreciated for joining the sometimes somewhat crazed discussion over there. he measured blood levels and stuff. he just didn't show his subjects how to vape. they "puffed".
i mean, "puff" on an (auto) ecig if you've never seem one before, as if it were a cigarette... and make it a really crappy brand. not a lot happens.
naive, mostly, imho.
i mean, "puff" on an (auto) ecig if you've never seem one before, as if it were a cigarette... and make it a really crappy brand. not a lot happens.
naive, mostly, imho.
Yeah, we all know it delivers. The research and public info on these is so all over the place - some pretty good, some biased, some naive or misinformed, and some, from high places, simply patently corrupt and wicked. Sigh.
These studies are a catch-22. If they show that nicotine is delivered at a significant rate, the FDA gets to wave it over their heads and say, "See, we told you. It is the same as a prescription inhaler, a drug delivery system, and we need to regulate it." If the studies come out like this one, no significant delivery, they get to wave it and say, "See, these devices are being sold fraudulently and we need to regulate them!"
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