E-Cigarettes, Miracle or Menace? BBC Horizon...

[Oliver]

Watch this, share this. Absolutely brilliant from Dr. Michael Mosley last night on BBC science show "Horizon".



Quotes from the show (thanks to @evan le'garde in the thread for pulling them out!):

"I think they have a great potential to save millions of lives over the next twenty , thirty years."

"They could turn out to be one of the greatest, perhaps "the" gretest even, Public health innovations of our generation !."

"When i set out to vape for a month i was worried i'd get hooked on nicotine. But i haven't begun to crave it at all !."

"Research in animals suggest that nicotine is more addictive when it's delivered in combination with other chemicals found in regular cigarettes. So it may be that vaping is less addictive than smoking".

"We are seeing an increase in experimentation, err, with electronic cigarettes among young people, say eleven to eighteen, erm, what we are not seeing is regular use among young people who are never smokers".

"That might be because actually when young people use these products they might be appealing but they are not as addictive as a tobacco cigarette, i think they're quite different !".

"So when it comes to helping smokers quit, e cigarettes, like nicotine replacement therapy, are far more effective than going cold turkey".

"Most people on the e cigarettes were not keen to keep using them for ever and ever".

"Their goal was essentially to give it up entirely. They didn't see it as a sort of bridge or an alternative or one way to just keep on inhaling nicotine. Their plan was eradication".

"It seems to me that whether e cigarettes are good news or not really depends on how they're used".

"The evidence suggests that vaping is far safer than smoking. And is also an effective way to help you quit".

"Vaping does seem to cause some harm to our bodies. But in the short term the risks appear to be low".

"The one thing that science can't yet answer is "what are the long term effects. On this there is no consensus."

"Books and PHD's and movies will be made about how was it possible that people from within public health are vigorously opposed to something which provides such a huge public health benefit".

"Clearly if you're not a smoker then taking up vaping is a stupid thing to do !".

"But if i was a smoker, then despite the uncertainties and potential downsides, i would certainly give it a go."

"Worldwide there are currently around a billion smokers. And about half of them will be killed by their habit. If e cigarettes can win a significant share of the trillion dollar tobacco market this could transform the worlds health".

 

[Oliver]

Regarding the "experiment" - obviously this is interesting stuff, but it is of course a small sample, and there's always the Hawthorn effect to contend with.

But even in this small sample, the main thing that I hope comes over to non-vaping watchers is the sheer difficulty that the cold turkey group had versus NRT and Nicotine.

Smokers don't get a lot of sympathy these days, and I hope this encourages the more empathic observer to realise just how important e-cigs are.

 

[VapingBad]

Nice to see @VapingBad on the TV.

Now, with that aside mentioned, I thought it was a great program.

Let's hope it does some good. (It ought to...)

We did film for nearly 5 hours which has ended up on the cutting room floor, but it's such a huge subject that's fair enough. I really wish they had used the bit where he ask what it would take for us to stop vaping and everyone said they were not going to. This was me with a bunch of other London vapers that I don't think are one here.

 

[Robino1]

Life is a risk.

I chose to live my life in a way that makes me happy.

Damn those who want to regulate how I live my life when it does not IMPACT anyone, other than myself, negatively.

 

[Robino1]

Would like to know how long they consider long term is.

I think we have people that have been vaping for almost 10 years. There still aren't any diseases or illnesses that can be attributed to vaping, that we know of.

If they kill the industry now, they will never be able to ascertain any data.

Smokers know the risks yet still continue to smoke. Vapers know that there 'could' be risk but we choose this 95% safer alternative.

The video was uplifting in the hope department but I saw things where some bias was still under the surface. Especially with the guy that was measuring vapor in a closed chamber.

Realistically, how small was that room? Did he encourage large volumes of vapor? His statement with regards to glycerin with a 'we just don't know'. I felt like he really wanted to find something......anything that he could point to and say 'this is bad for bystanders'. I'm sorry but that was the impression I got.

Overall it was a fair piece of reporting. I could also see where nanny staters could twist some things.

I have mixed feelings on this piece.

 

[evan le'garde]

Quotes :

"I think they have a great potential to save millions of lives over the next twenty , thirty years."

"They could turn out to be one of the greatest, perhaps "the" gretest even, Public health innovations of our generation !."

"When i set out to vape for a month i was worried i'd get hooked on nicotine. But i haven't begun to crave it at all !."

"Research in animals suggest that nicotine is more addictive when it's delivered in combination with other chemicals found in regular cigarettes. So it may be that vaping is less addictive than smoking".

"We are seeing an increase in experimentation, err, with electronic cigarettes among young people, say eleven to eighteen, erm, what we are not seeing is regular use among young people who are never smokers".

"That might be because actually when young people use these products they might be appealing but they are not as addictive as a tobacco cigarette, i think they're quite different !".

"So when it comes to helping smokers quit, e cigarettes, like nicotine replacement therapy, are far more effective than going cold turkey".

"Most people on the e cigarettes were not keen to keep using them for ever and ever".

"Their goal was essentially to give it up entirely. They didn't see it as a sort of bridge or an alternative or one way to just keep on inhaling nicotine. Their plan was eradication".

"It seems to me that whether e cigarettes are good news or not really depends on how they're used".

"The evidence suggests that vaping is far safer than smoking. And is also an effective way to help you quit".

"Vaping does seem to cause some harm to our bodies. But in the short term the risks appear to be low".

"The one thing that science can't yet answer is "what are the long term effects ?". On this there is no consensus."

"Books and PHD's and movies will be made about how was it possible that people from within public health are vigorously opposed to something which provides such a huge public health benefit".

"Clearly if you're not a smoker then taking up vaping is a stupid thing to do !".

"But if i was a smoker, then despite the uncertainties and potential downsides, i would certainly give it a go."

"Worldwide there are currently around a billion smokers. And about half of them will be killed by their habit. If e cigarettes can win a significant share of the trillion dollar tobacco market this could transform the worlds health".

 

[Robino1]

Where eating a slice of cake once a week with a few drops of flavor may bring no harm (at least from the flavor/glycerin/glycol component), inhaling multiple heated milliliters per day of it into your lungs is not necessarily the same thing.

Playing devils advocate here myself for a moment: Bakers that make these cakes all day, every day, ARE inhaling these flavorings and they have not had any adverse reactions yet.

I'm just saying they are banning things on the misguided assumption that something could maybe, possibly be, despite evidence to the contrary, be harmful and we are going to not make it available to those that ARE using something that HAS been shown to be harmful to some of the population.

And we have been told that even though we are healthier we don't count because we are anecdotal. Even though there are millions of us that have had improved health...we don't count.

We are invisible.

I vape, I vote. I will no longer stand by and be invisible.

 

[AzPlumber]

I would like to see long term follow up info on the continued success in both the NRT and E-Cig group.

 

[salemgold]

They show a lot of different testing in this video on vapor. Very interesting that menthol was more harmful to living cells than a Pina Colada flavored ejuice. So, all of these vapers that have been so worried about diacetyl may indeed find out that is not where their concern should be. That is what I have been saying is a good possibility all along.

 

[choochoogranny]

The testing was only for a month. How long do people use the NRT's to stay quit? If they quit those too, do they use those instead of cigs a few yrs. down the line when the "urge" gets to be too much?

Since I never planned on quitting cigs, I was "broadsided" by their ease and effectiveness without trying. So, vaping became a subsitiute for me rather than a "quit method." I do not plan on quitting vaping too. It may happen. It may not. If I do quit vaping, I won't toss my gear 'cause I've watched people dear to me take up smoking again after 5-10 yrs. of quitting.

 

[Dudeus Nordicus]

Quotes :

"Research in animals suggest that nicotine is more addictive when it's delivered in combination with other chemicals found in regular cigarettes. So it may be that vaping is less addictive than smoking".

Naturally extracted nicotine from tobacco (NET) is likewise likely to be slightly more addictive than pure nicotine, or caffeine to that matter. Instead of going for my vape gear, the first for me in the morning involves a dash for the coffee jar!

It just happens that besides sharing nicotine's mild addiction causing potential, caffeine is also considered to have moderate neuroprotective and nootropic effects while being highly toxic in concentrated form.

What?? Caffeine and nicotine have very similar effects??

Here's an idea: let's ban coffee makers and outright criminalize the possession of espresso machines.

Consumption of caffeine should be naturally be banned in public places.

Coffee should only be available through Big Pharma's licenced outlets, in tiny packages and complete with warning labels and images of caffeine-crazed zombies. Each single variant of coffee should naturally go through a multi-million €€€/$$$/£££ safety testing before entering the controlled marketplace.

You get the drift...

The more corrupt the institution, the more determined they are to make vaping unavailable (Hello USA, India, tobacco-growing South-America, "People's republics" of all ilks etc.). While I support most aspects of the European Union, there are some areas of horrible overreach and the Tobacco Products Directive (TPD) is one of the worst examples. Of course the Tobacco and Pharma lobbies have had local legislatures infiltrated and bribed for decades already so this is just them singing in unison from the old songbook. We need to name and shame the industry stooges (who voted for TPD) at the local level everywhere.

Interestingly, while I don't much care for the anachronistic English system involving the priviledged Lords, I just came across another "tube clip" involving a recent session of their's where well-informed pro-vaping "lords" rip into the proposed "tobacco directive"...

The first 10 minutes or so are enough to get the gist of the session.

Even the gov't stooge at the end of the session seemed genuinely apologetic about the directive. MPs and MEPs across Europe could learn a trick or two from those old geezers!

Anyway, Mosley's documentary is about as good publicity as we could hope for, despite leaving a few areas grey, and I hope it gets broadcast by local channels all over Europe and beyond.


Here's a final thought: The entire planet is struggling with dual epidemics of obesity and dementia. Moderate nicotine use is shown to control appetite/cravings while increasing body metabolism (= weight loss) and offering some protection against dementia and Alzheimers.

What should any decent government do?

 

[Robino1]

Perhaps that was when he started prototyping it. I could see it taking a couple of years to get to a "Market" version. More so when you consider that it wasn't just "tweaking" a previous version.

I was rather surprised how much the PC board resembled the guts of a box mod you might see today (minus the slide switch).

His vapor production kind of reminded me of the first time I tried vaping in 2010 (it was a Volcano e-cig). It didn't have the lung hit I needed (not that I knew that was what I was missing at the time), and after a month, I gave it away to a co-worker. He gave it to his sister who smoked and she was able to quit with the Volcano's use. So that was a "WIN" in my book.

Two and a half years later, a young man sat down nest to me at a bowling alley after league, and pulled out a simple VV/VW tube with a tank and set it on the table. I told him about my experience with the previous e-cig and how it didn't work for me. He carried spare drip tips, and put a clean one on, and encouraged me to take a puff. I tried it, and for the first time in 32 years of smoking, found SOMETHING that could mimic the smoking "sensation" I evidently craved that chew, patches, gums, and pills couldn't satisfy. Seven days later, on December 28, 2013, I put my very last pack of analog cigarettes down (still half full), and have never picked a pack up again.

Sorry `bout that. I didn't mean to make this a testimonial.

You should copy this and post it to the CASAA testimonials page. Strong story

E-cigarette User Testimonials

While there.... Become a CASAA Member

Free to sign up and we need more voices. We are getting louder and soon we will be able to drown out the naysayers.

Thanks for the link. I found the program to be pretty objective, without any strong biases. The conclusion that vaping probably has some minor negative effects seems fair, and the point is made many times that e-cigs are far less harmful than smoking, and should be used as cessation devices, (the obvious truth that the FDA will soon make verboten to mention ).

The only bit I didn't like was Omar Whatshisface interjecting his opinion that it was a "problem" for people to use e-cigs in situations/places where smoking is not allowed, and not specifically to quit smoking. That's a distinctly ANTZ attitude. It's none of his business, (or yours, or mine), why any adult might choose to use an e-cig, and that should always be irrelevant to laws, regulations, and policies.

Yeah, I said earlier that there were a few things that didn't quite set well with me. The above in bold is another.....

 

[sonicbomb]

The positive messages are mounting. A smoker and casual anti-vaper friend of mine texted me and told me to watch this

 

[Katmar]

Very well rounded approach. Thanks for sharing, SJ. I'll take 95-99% safer than smoking ANY day.

 

[TrueNorthist]

I watched it yesterday and was pleased Dr Mosley and even most of the experts who rendered judgements were fair and reasoned throughout the broadcast. The one thing that gives me most hope for the future of vaping, is that all involved are calling for more reputable study, which as we saw in this show will reveal what we already know: Vaping saves lives and has repeatedly been shown to pose virtually no serious risk of harm to anyone. I was a little disappointed however, that they did not show the results of exposing lung tissue to plain old room air, as well as vapour and cig smoke. My guess is that room air causes similar mortality to such tissue as does e-cig vapour, or at least nearly as much. What always seems to escape notice is that even the air deep inside a lush forest causes insult to lung tissues. Virtually everything we eat, breath and otherwise absorb causes some degree of cellular damage.

Thanks for the heads up Smokey Joe.

 

[choochoogranny]

The thing I found most intriguing was the people who used e-cigs in the test group were given basic ego set ups (possible 2nd gen devices) but Dr Mosley used a nautilus and an evic mini(?) which are both more advanced devices.

How much easier would the vapers have found it if they had been given more up to date equipment?

Very good video and appreciate that it was made and distributed. Will share!

However, like Big Me I find a discrepancy in vaping devices used between the good doctor and the testing participants disconcerning. I also wonder if there was attention paid between mouth to lung and direct to lung inhales. Here is one place where "never smokers" as researchers have no idea, don't know what to ask, and can skew figures.

I myself am mostly "mouth and out" ex-smoker and present vaper. Could be a very good reason why my 53 years of smoking didn't damage me as much as someone inhaling into lungs. Only into my late 60's did I start to experience coughing when sleeping .......and laughing! Now nearly 3 yrs. later have no problems with either......and laugh as much as I can!

 

[IDJoel]

I tried further searching for the lab results on more e liquid flavorings by this same laboratory in the UK without much success-(Matcha Gurevich e cigarette flavor testing)

EDIT- Probably because I have no idea how to correctly spell his name!

Maciej Goniewicz, PhD, PharmD
Assistant Professor of Oncology
Department of Health Behavior
Roswell Park Cancer Institute
Buffalo, NY 14263

I found his name doing a search for: toxicology research of e-liquid on human cells
His was first link (though not to the specific juice testing; I'm not sure that is published yet).
If you youtube search his name you can find a couple of older videos (2-3 years old) of him. You'll know immediately this is the same person by both voice and appearance.

Also, I would offer a quiet caution about his specific juice tests; unless you are using his exact flavor AND brand the results are not universal. If you have experience mixing your own juice you will know there is a vast selection of ingredients available to anyone making e-liquid.
Mfg "A" makes a pina colada with 7 ingredients and Mfg. "B" makes their pina colada with 13 entirely different ingredients. They will taste similar but that does not mean that the level of risk is automatically the same.
I am not saying that it is useless, just don't try to directly apply it to all flavors with the same name.

 

[juicynoos]

My interest peaked after watching the Horizon program so delving deeper into testing of flavorings on the human cells is natural curiosity. @IDJoel , thanks for posting your find. I turned up some other research performed by independent labs hired by e liquid manufacturers but when driving behind a bus going up hill awhile later, I was engulfed in a mushroom cloud of black diesel and got back my perspective!
I am happy with Vaping and proud of myself and this community for stopping smoking-they can test all they want, my mind is made up.

E-cig industry test fails to detect harmful levels of diacetyl, university testing shows

 

[Layzee Vaper]

My favourite line was:- Cigarettes are so uniquely dangerous that every cigarette smoked reduces somebodies lifespan by 11 minuets. Even if everybody in the population took up e-cigarettes we would still be better off.

 

[Ben85]

Recorded this last night and watched it today. For those that don't know, the BBC here, and in particular the Horizon programme, is quite respected and would have more poke than some of the other "entertainment" focussed channels.

The timing with this is very good and I am still clinging onto some hope that someone with power will see what is presented here and make an informed decision about the scale of the regulations.