E-Cigarettes Under Fire--WebMD Article

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Hangar

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You are simply speculating, based on no medical training or expertise, and apparently little research of your own, that vapor composed of PG, nicotine and flavors could cause throat cancer,

I seriously suggest you read and educate yourself some more on these topics.

I never said it causes throat cancer...i was asking WHAT IF IT DOES? I dont see why you would want to manipulate my point and take it completely out of context like that...or maybe thats because you dont want anyone to notice YOU might be the one "speculating" when you say how sure you are that ecigs should be classified as a valid harm reduction device/therapy...because such a speculation as THAT would NOT be based on legit scientific study..simply because there ARENT any such studies...and please dont point me to the laughable New Zealand study...ive seen it and its moot quite frankly, for obvious reasons.

...oh and about that nic inhaler?...if youre referring to the one available in the U.S. under Rx, it is absorbed into the throat area and not the lungs as with an ecig...and it is not heated, and theres no chance of inhaling harmful metalic vapors, fillings, etc....again...the point is YOU cant make ANY claims abour safety just yet...NOBODY can...and if you refuse to accept that you're just being unreasonable and making the road a longer and more painful one for yourself than it should be im afraid.

But what do i know?, im just an educated drug addict afterall :)
 
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yvilla

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Hangar

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. Why may I ask did you start using Ecigs? Don't you believe in it?
actually thats a very good question (do i believe in them?)...and to be honest its a question i cant answer completely yet because i dont have enough information.

I started using them for the obvious reason that most will start using them...smoking too many years and feeling the effects...so im scared to continue using real cigs because i KNOW they cause horrible sickness and i was hoping one day thered be a way to have my cake and eat it too!...just like everyone else here.

I began using them after the initial excitement of reading this forum and all the positive posts about how easy they made it to get off analogs and how safe they were, etc...but now that everything has sunk in and ive seen how it interacts with my body and doing alot more reading, etc., i realize there may be dangers associated with this product, and im concerned that some of those may even be as lethal as the ones cause by real cigs...im NOT saying THERE ARE DANGERS...im saying i understand there COULD BE DANGERS.

So as far as believing in them...all i can say for certain is this:

I believe they make it alot easier to give up analog smokes, and i believe i enjoy using them.

I WANT to believe they are truly safer than real smokes but i dont know this one way or the other yet.

I WANT to believe they will help me get away from nicotine and ecigs themselves at some point in the near future, but again i do not know this yet.

I am in the same boat as all of you...wishing, hoping, praying...and yes...angry at all the political corruption...its just that as a businessman my entire life ive always found more success for myself when taking both sides of an issue into consideration rather than letting my frustration get the best of me. I understnad how difficult that can be to do when theres an issue as this which hits so close to home but i guess im just used to having to be that way my whole life...i think its just been bred into me or something, lol.
 
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fenez

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All hangar is saying is that all the claims are unsubstantiated. So everyone here is pretty much just making claims as to what they think, and I am afraid that what we think doesn't matter so much as what we can prove. Even if they were to just let it become another type of cigarette on the shelves, we would then be paying for 10ml of liquid what a carton of cigarettes cost at least possibly more.
 

Hangar

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Like I said, educate yourself. Here's some links supporting what I'm saying:

What have you got?

better common sense and reading comprehension skills apparently, yvilla.

No seriously...ive read them...and even though some of them DO make me feel good and even hopeful at times,...i still realize they are only opinions which are not based on any long term effective scientific testing and for right NOW as it stands they are better used for political pressure than any long term personal health decisions. At least thats they way itll be for now in MY family. Afterall, even if its eventually proven to really be safer than analogs...its still very unhealthy and can make you sick, so why continue forever if i can help it, ya know?

It is my intention (and possibly within my best interest even) to get off of ecigs within 90 days of quiting analogs (i am now down to only 2 analogs per day!!...and only 3 weeks in..thats a miracle for me)

By the way...dont always go by what you might hear from nurses...one told me once that if you had more than 7 cat scans in a lifetime you will get cancer...my radiologist still laughs his ... of about that one :)
 
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klum

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I have to say, I'm feeling Hangar's position here. There is no studies that say long term Vaping is better for you than smoking, period. There are a lot of Dr.s and researchers that have favorable opinions towards the position that vaping over cigarettes is better for you, but they can not say 100% that they are correct about it without any studies. I personally believe that they are safer, for all the reasons the Yvilla put out in her links. Intuitively, we all seem to feel that way. We just need the hard data to back it up. It's the FDA's job of getting the industry to get that data together. Hopefully, it's not at the current expense of the vaping public. My hope is that they don't put in a full ban and allow testing to happen concurrently. I'm not sure that others here have the same objective. Hangar and Tbob have valid points. Why shouldn't all of us who are vaping want a long term study to prove it as a truly safer product?

I do love the level of passion on this forum, but we shouldn't really shoot each other down so hard, as we all are supporting the same thing.

kevin
 

yvilla

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David Sweanor on the issue of "safe"; no these few snippets from his interview address everything you have been worrying about Hangar:

"Q: You've stated that electronic cigarettes are not safe, but that they are a lot better than cigarettes. Just how unsafe are they?

A: After many tens of thousands of research papers we know what causes the illnesses associated with smoking. In short, ‘it’s the smoke, stupid’. Non-combustion products will vary in their risks, but everything we can see about the sort of product sold in the West (whether smokeless tobacco, electronic cigarettes or medicinal nicotine) tells us that cigarettes are orders of magnitude more hazardous.

Everything has risks, so simply pointing out that something is ‘not safe’ shows a person to be either ignorant or disingenuous..."As to ‘not safe’, we perhaps need elaboration. The point I try to make when faced with the ‘it’s not safe’ canard is that nothing meets the criteria of being absolutely ‘safe’. The key issue in looking at safety is that it is a relative concept; we need to look at safety of any activity compared to some alternative. Rather than the unattainable standard of ‘safe’ we should be thinking in terms of ‘safer’.

Despite the risks associated with soccer, I would, for instance, prefer my children play soccer rather than play with live hand grenades.

Q: Opponents of the electronic cigarette have said that it could stop smokers from giving up, that is untested and untried and that claims that the electronic cigarette are healthier than normal cigarettes are unproven. How would you respond to these allegations?

A: .... If there is anyone who believes cigarettes are no more hazardous than e-cigarettes I’d recommend a remedial course in basic sciences. For anti-nicotine campaigners who say we need to wait for more research I would point out the way they are proving Nietzsche correct – we take on the attributes of our enemies. Cigarette companies spent decades making spurious claims that we need ‘more research’ before we could move on policy measures, despite the already-existing basis for informed policy measures. They provide very poor role models.

Q: One criticism that has been levelled at the electronic cigarette is that we don't know the effect of heating up a nicotine vapour and inhaling it into the lungs. Is this a valid criticism?

A: We certainly know that inhaling a heated nicotine vapour into the lungs is one heck of a lot less hazardous than inhaling the same vapour along with the thousands of chemicals and dozens of known carcinogens that are inhaled when that vapour is delivered by smoking a cigarette. An investigation to determine if the non-smoke vapour is, say, 1/100 or 1/1,000 the risk of cigarette smoking might be a good thing. But if someone thinks cigarettes should not be challenged in the marketplace until we have such results I think they need to try thinking a little more deeply. They should also question whether they have undergone a Nietzsche-like transformation that is causing them to be sounding like a 1970s cigarette company executive."

So try your vaunted reading comprehension skills out on that.
 

nitewriter

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actually thats a very good question (do i believe in them?)...and to be honest its a question i cant answer completely yet because i dont have enough information..

yvilla just (re)posted the threads for you. I suggest you educate yourself before condemning us for choosing what WE believe to be best for US. We know the risks and the testing that is needed, yet we've all made our own individual choices, just as you must do.

Weighing both sides of the issues is a healthy practice, usually completed before making a final decision. You obviously made the decision to try e-cigs before completely anaylizing the risks. Don't think for a minute that we've made that same mistake.

I wish you the best and hope you find what's best for you. :)

 

klum

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I'm not sure that Hangar or Tbob or myself were saying that we "believe" E-cigs are not safer than analogs. According to the quotes that you just sent even David Sweanor says "An investigation to determine if the non-smoke vapour is, say, 1/100 or 1/1,000 the risk of cigarette smoking might be a good thing."

It's not my position to say that it's not less harmful than cigarettes, I believe that they are less harmful than analogs. My position is that I would like to know the long term affects on my body. I'm not just talking about carcinogen related cancers, I'm talking about large amounts of inhaled PG (over time), large amounts of flavorings (over time) and large amounts of nicotine. Maybe they are harmless, but, maybe not. What is wrong with wanting to know these things?

As I said before, it's not about whether we all want this to be legalized outright. I think that we all have that goal in mind. It's that some of us would like to have tests done to see what kind of reactions our bodies might have in the long term. Whether those tests can happen while we are still vaping legally or not is the question. As I said before, I hope concurrently with our use. I'm not sure what the argument is here? Do you not want some form of testing to find out the LT affects?

kevin
 
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yvilla

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It's not my position to say that it's not less harmful than cigarettes, I believe that they are less harmful than analogs. My position is that I would like to know the long term affects on my body. I'm not just talking about carcinogen related cancers, I'm talking about large amounts of inhaled PG (over time), large amounts of flavorings (over time) and large amounts of nicotine. Maybe they are harmless, but, maybe not. What is wrong with wanting to know these things?

kevin

Kevin, there is absolutely nothing wrong at all with wanting to know more about the long term effects of vaping!

But if you read back over the posts Hangar has been making, I think you will see that he is going a lot further than that. That is why I have been so insistent in responding to them.
 

Nuck

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yville, I've always wanted to mention how much I admire your posts. Calm, factual, reasoned responses even in the face of some fairly inane 'what if' postulating.

Hangar, it's one thing to have a debate and a difference of opinion, but your points are speculative and argumentative. You come across as someone who enjoys argument for the sake of argument and your posts have a distinct undertone of condescension. Trust me on this, nobody is as clever as you think you are.
 

Hangar

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As I said before, it's not about whether we all want this to be legalized outright. I think that we all have that goal in mind. It's that some of us would like to have tests done to see what kind of reactions our bodies might have in the long term. Whether those tests can happen while we are still vaping legally or not is the question. As I said before, I hope concurrently with our use. I'm not sure what the argument is here? Do you not want some form of testing to find out the LT affects?

kevin

exactly Kevin...ive been thinking for weeks now how strange it is that most here dont seem to want to really know...its as if theyre more concerned with their "fix" and more caught up in their own anger towards government than any conclusive testing. If you try to call them on it watch out, because any mention of reason that might point to both sides of the issue will get trampled like a field mouse under the hooves of stampeding buffalo.

The fact is, nothing is conclusive right now...and wont be for some time unfortunately and in the meantime i think users and sellers might do themselves better justice by showing some responsible behavior and attitude with this new product, and not shooting down every tom, **** and harry who reminds them that it might not be as safe as they WISH it to be.

Lets not forget the old cigarette commercials which once aired on national televison which had doctors recommending that we smoke their cigarettes.

Yes...I'd like the right to be able to choose for myself and to have my ecigs , but at the same time i dont want non-conclusive politically motivated opinions shoved down my throat everytime a voice of reason tries to make itself be heard.

I want them fully and conclusively tested because i want to know for sure, REGARDLESS of what the political outcome might be.

The big difference between TBob and myself is that he's too smart to stand in front of an out of control freight train...whereas ill cut off my nose to spite my face if i feel the issue is worth it, personally speaking.
 
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Hangar

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yvilla just (re)posted the threads for you. I suggest you educate yourself before condemning us for choosing what WE believe to be best for US. We know the risks and the testing that is needed, yet we've all made our own individual choices, just as you must do.


Hi - im not condemning us at all...in fact im mostly defending myself and logic here... if you look at my first post (post number 4 on page 1) in this thread you can clearly see that all i did was make a very brief comment concerning my opinion about a quote...unfortunately, that opinion gave some weight to BOTH sides of the issue and thats when i was jumped on and raped, lol.

...i feel you should be able to comment on both sides of an issue without having to defend yourself or be attacked. Unfortunately it seems folks are just a tad too angry here and not allowing that to happen...and in the end its only hurting themselves and logic itself.
 

Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah

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Wow - what a fight!

Hangar and Yvilla-you both have valid points, here...

Now I'm going to jump in.....and I'm prepared to be slapped soundly by BOTH sides....:D

You two are arguing across a football field - you're each on opposing ends... You're screaming at each other across 100 yards...

Can you hear each other? NO - because of the distance and because you're too busy formulating your next arguement that you're not LISTENING to the other...

But the crowd, who can watch both sides, and hear portions of each arguement, are loving it, and add their cheers and jeers to the commotion.

The goal for each of you is to WIN!

Dramatic? You bet. Good entertainment? Sure. Solving anything? Not a chance!

We have to find a common ground-the 50 yard line, so to speak.
We need to tell the crowd to be quiet so we can work this thing.
And, we need to leave our egos in the endzones....


I can see this dynamic in Washington, as well.....those pushing for the ban on the grounds of "not tested, not safe" vs those opposing the ban due to "harm reduction."

-Neither can hear the arguements of the other.
-Neither can acceed "points" or "valid arguements" to the other side because they're too caught up in their rhetoric.
-Both firmly believe that they have the right on their side and the other side is just "full of piss and vinegar."

So - how do we solve this? Let's work the problem, people, and stop being the spectators throwing our cheers and jeers to ADD to the confusion...


Write to your representatives.
Write to your papers.
Write to the manufacturers (Ruyan's US HQ is in MN) and request they initiate testing.

And, above all, be respectful with your new toy in public. DON'T ANNOY the public (who's opinion will be taken into consideration!)

There - sermon over - I'm leaving the pulpit. You may commence slapping me around, now.
 

nitewriter

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I don't think anyone disagrees with you that LT testing needs to be done, and the list of unknowns is long. Again, it's a risk we've all asessed.

I think your "freight train" occured because people take offense to criticism from "one of our own." God knows we face enough from critics, govt., press, etc.. ...You're either with us, or against us, you can't be both.
 

Hangar

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I don't think anyone disagrees with you that LT testing needs to be done, and the list of unknowns is long. Again, it's a risk we've all asessed.

I think your "freight train" occured because people take offense to criticism from "one of our own." God knows we face enough from critics, govt., press, etc.. ...You're either with us, or against us, you can't be both.

yep, point well taken and understood...and of course im "with" the right to choose and have this product available for us without it being taxed up the .......but there are other issues besides that one that need to be more openly accessible to conversation because there are at least 2 or more sides to our dilemna and every argument for or against it needs a mediator.

I guess in a way im trying to mediate and be the objective on looker (as a newbie) who has a voice of reason not so much who favors one side or the other, but who will consider ALL sides and aspects of this products current issues.

...anyway...i cant FORCE the horse to drink and i cant FORCE someone to see the reasoning so at this point ill just let the thread stand foritself and mean whatever it might to whomever reads it. Hopefully, it'll hit home with a few of us.
 

Oldnamenomore

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nothing in e-cigs cause cancer in and of themselves. Combustion or burning of anything creates carcinogens, you burn your chicken it contains carcinogens, same with your toast. The combustion of tobacco is the most dangerous part of the whole scenario. E-cigs don't have the most dangerous component (combustion), its been proven pg vapor, nicotine vapor and water vapor is safe for inhalation.

The only thing that is questionable is flavoring which is safe when not inhaled. That is why we are comfortable saying it is safer then analogs. I literally am willing to bet my life that e-cigs pose very little health risk, not out of blind faith but because the research is there to some degree to show it. There does need to be more testing, but they should not be banned until it is done.
 

antok

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Hmm... Funny. I've been reading this and a few other threads and trying to put a finger on why Hangar in particular is hearing so much grief over his views. One thing that's definitely caught me as off-putting is the "I'm smarter and better informed than you and you can't prove me wrong. If you don't agree with me, you're wrong" tone in the majority of your posts.

You're a decent debater, and seem to know when to pull back a bit so as not to alienate too many people, but falling back every time on the "we just don't know" thing constantly and discounting dissenting opinions, studies, etc. the vast majority of the time denigrates, rather than disproves those opposing views.

I haven't trolled around for every thread you've posted in, and I can't claim to know you at all, but I can give my opinion on where you're coming from from what I have read:

First, your main concern seems to be to set yourself up as some kind of wise, fair, reasoning de facto authority. You are not, and that's a big reason you're catching some of the grief you're catching. And being a "newbie" (like myself) doesn't even come close to making you objective. Frankly, from the tone of your posts, you seem to have a case of "smokers guilt" and your main concern is to get yourself off of nicotine entirely. In that, I applaud you and wish you luck. Make what you feel is the best, most well-informed decision for yourself and your family.
Do not, however, discount the opinions and decisions of others with regard to their own choices or what studies, evidence, anecdotal knowledge, insight from the position of the stars on a hot summer night, or whatever "authority" they wish to utilize in their own decisions.

I find it interesting how often you use the word "I" with regard to who can, can't, should, etc. and keep it lower-case to kind of de-emphasize it a bit while throwing it out there so often. Methinks that's probably intentional, as a wise businessman such as yourself knows when to try to be subtle.

Hmm.. Brings me to another related point with regard to your demeanor. If we were in court or something, I'd put this under the "goes to show a pattern of behavior, your Honor" category.
That would be with regard to your posts in the Nebula pre-order thread. In that one, you're friendly, try to be helpful, informative, and empathetic with regard to customs, etc. Then 2 days later comes the "telling another businessman how it SHOULD be done" with regard to the pre-order charges. It's not how it "should" be done, it's how you'd like it to be done. Plus the not-so-subtle hint that you'd like to be compensated for your credit card interest. Just get the refund and quit with the snide remarks about customer service, etc. In that one, you mentioned Amazon in comparison, and that's not anywhere near a fair comparison, nor are whatever software things you do.

Frankly, you try to present yourself as fair, unbiased, a mediator, whatever, when what you really seem intent on is pushing your ideas on right and wrong, how things should be done, etc. You don't seem interested in meaningful discussion as much as you do "here's what I think, and if you disagree, you're stupid."

Damn, long post here. In a nutshell, you are not an objective onlooker, you are an opinionated participant. You have, from your account, had mixed results from your own e-cigarette experiences, wish to quit nicotine, and have had an experience with a supplier that wasn't to your liking. Rather than being an advocate for level reasoning, you come across as someone with sour grapes who wishes to instigate and make himself feel important.

That's what I, and I'm guessing a few other people get from your posts.
 
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