E-Liquid. Are you getting what you pay for ?

[dc2k08]

thanks, i'll have a look at the cannons.

 

[Kimmiegrif]

but ned does your tongue turn black? that could be a problem.

 

[ApOsTle51]

I recieved an email from the retailer today here's an extract ( the important bit )

Thanks for raising this. Obviously we'll need to start checking the contents inside the boxes from now on. This is how they come supplied from the manufacturer.

Therefore, you are being short changed and so are we!!

So it seems it's a manufaturing error and not a weights and measures error from the retailer.
I just assumed the retailer bought in bulk and rebottled the liquid for sale.
Obviously that's not how it works.

But still , Check those bottles guys.

 

[jigtg]

nyoy and ruyan e liquid as taken over from printer ink ned as the most expensive liquid on the planet..

Ruyan e-liquid is actually cheaper than most e-liquids in bottles. 50 carts for $40 each holding around 1ml according to my calculations.
40/50=0.80000 per ml. JC which I consider cheap costs 20/30=0.66667 per ml.

I have an epsom c84 for which I bought 600ml dye ink for around £20 and chip resetter. Well actually they accidently sent me non-dye ink first so I have around 1.2 liters of ink here... it probably goes old before I use it all.

 

[trog100]

they have dropped in price if so.. try five dollars per cart or twenty five dollars for five carts each containing 1 ml.. its the most expensive ones i have come across..

i am also talking recommend retail proper prices not some year old end of line ebay stuff which i am sure is what u are quoting..

over 22.000 per imperial gallon.. sold in little plastic tubs..

real prices as i say.. not year old end line ebay stock.. be real dude..

trog

 

[Kate]

nope, but i will be checking now, naming and shaming.

but at least we dont have micro-chips in our carts that render them useless and un-refillable once the liquid has been used ala certain ink cartridges. LEXMARK im talking to you

It's funny you should say that, this is what the Janty USA site says:

"WARRANTY: Atomizers and swiches come with a 6 month warranty an dbatteries with a 3 month warranty when used strictly in accordance with the guidelines in the manuals.
Please let us know within the first 3 days of usage if you find any problem.

Exceptions:
Damaged goods or non or bad functioning goods, cloaked atomizers due to clients misusage, bad handling or the usage of other than original JANTY cartridges, liquids or other items in combination with JANTY items are excluded from warranty. All returned items are checked at the moment of return at our warehouse. User data from the micro chips will be verified. The microchips inside the switches, batteries or USB compartments register abnormalities, density of liquid residues and abnormal high "peaks" from wrong usage."

 

[Soot]

Kate - I can't find this advice on the Janty EU site - does this only apply to the US site? I'm awaiting delivery of a Janty Classic (from the EU) and will be sending it back if this change applies.

I guess I should send this question to Janty - I will and I'll post their reply - if I get one.

 

[Kate]

I couldn't find it on the European site either. If you do find out anything I'd be interested in hearing about it.

This is an outrageous clause in Janty's contract and they didn't even bother informing us about it. I asked Ludo about this very issue not long ago and he implied that their customers were not forced to buy their juice.

I wouldn't buy Janty hardware now if I was bound by this exclusion on the warranty, it's totally unreasonable. They charge enough for the hardware without tying us into an unfair contract for consumables.

 

[trog100]

its perhaps outside EU law..

anyway kate thats two down.. more to go.. dig a bit deeper or ask the direct question to any other long guarantee sellers..

can i use any e liquid in your device.. ???

i am sure the answer will be no.. which is kinda what i tried to tell u some time back.. it will come under misuse of the device even it it isnt cleary stated..

its also quite reasonable... any liquid could well wreck the device.. i seem to recall a thread about a certain liquid doing just that..

big money is not made by selling the hardware its made by selling the consumables.. the nice guarantee is a simple device to make sure some do..

the consumables carry a big mark up.. and we all use lots of em..

trog

 

[Kate]

Don't be rubbing your hands together too quickly Trog, Janty have now removed that exceptions clause. Ludo repeated that they would prefer us to use their eliquid but didn't say we had to. So back to one, Ruyan is the only company I know of that requires you to use their juice.

I think you might be right about it being against EU law, folks in the States have much less consumer protection against unfair contracts. North Americans seem resigned to being dictated to over consumer goods, hopefully their regulators will step in and request proof of safety for compulsory eliquids.

There's money to be made in both hardware and juice I think. Tying them together is not justifiable any more than a car manufacturer insisting we use a certain brand of petrol.

 

[trog100]

i aint rubbing my hands together kate.. and i am more aiming at the much longer guarantee.. six months is probably less than your UK statuary consumers rights warranty anyway so its meaningless.. janty are okay in my books.. six months is a reasonable warranty..

your car analogy is a poor one.. any car manufacturer wont fix your car if u dont put the right fuel in it.. if they think what u have put in it has caused the damage your guarantee will be void.. all quite sensible..

my words were any liquid.. and lots of people are messing with all sorts of home concoctions.. u just dont ever like to admit u might be wring do u.. he he

send some an email and ask em the question.. see what they say..

super long guarantees without a cart lock in to fiinance them are false in my book..

for example.. i like pipes.. i could pay £75 for a UK sold pipe.. would i.. no.. why.. cos i know how long pipes last.. i also dont believe in fairies..

let me tell a little guarantee story.. car batteries usually two or three years..

now i used to run a taxi business some years back.. a nomal car battery with a three year guarantee.. used to last me six months..

to get round this i used to fit larger than normal ones.. the guy in my little shop said why are u doing that they have a three year guarantee.. i said they only last six months.. repeat six months..

he said who cares if it fails bring it back and i will give u a knew one.. so even thow i knew i would be back in six months i fitted a normal one..

six months pass and back to the shop i go.. he gives me a new battery.. i fit it..

six months later i am back at the shop... now being the odd person that i am i never pushed the silly guarantee thing.. i simply bought a new one.. i had got my moneys worth from the other two..

okay the tale goes on.. six months later i am back at the shop with my knackered three year guarantee new one.. the one i payed for even thow i didnt really have to..

the guy tests it.. he looks at me and says its worn out.. i say i know its f-cking worn out but u said if it fails bring it back..he said its worn out.. he he he

anyways it transpires that the battery makers had got ...... off with too many returns and tightened up on things..

now the average punter might think the two or three guarantee might mean the product gets replaced it it fails within the time period.. i know better..

so what is the two or three year guarantee worth.. nothing if they decide to use the small print get out clause..

the guarantee is for defective materials and workmanship.. it could be twenty years and be equally meaningless.. how many buyers know this.. very very few.. they.. just like they are meant to.. assume it means if it fails within the guarantee time period they get a new one.. it means no such thing..

trog

 

[Kate]

What small print are you referring to? If the guarantees have get out clauses that we don't know about then you should (or would if you could) make them public.

My analogy is better than yours, you're just talking about hardware, we are dealing with hardware and consumables being linked by contract. Another comparison would be printers and printer ink as already compared on this thread.

You may not offer a guarantee because you think it's bad business but many successful business people do. Are you saying they don't know how to run a business as well as you do? Guarantees are essential to many customers, you just do not aim your products at that market because you have a novel product which is attractive to some people for different reasons.

 

[jigtg]

they have dropped in price if so.. try five dollars per cart or twenty five dollars for five carts each containing 1 ml.. its the most expensive ones i have come across..

i am also talking recommend retail proper prices not some year old end of line ebay stuff which i am sure is what u are quoting..

over 22.000 per imperial gallon.. sold in little plastic tubs..

real prices as i say.. not year old end line ebay stock.. be real dude..

trog

First of all, you have no evidence to show that you arent smoking older juice yourself. Heck, you suppliers don't even know when they were made. I would say most e-liquids are probably more than 6 months old when they get to the customer since manufacturing such small batches isn't economically viable. e-liquid being year old might affect its taste but do I really care if it tastes fine? I have some sterilized water used to clean surgical equipment here that is valid for 3 years. Having seen the package on these carts, I have no trouble believing they are valid for 2 years just like Ruyan says. You can pay for imaginary value if you want to. And you might actually get something in return.

@Kate:
Ruyan might actually have a legal case if other manufacturers liquids really kill their devices. In practice though, they aren't going to start doing lab tests to see if you had used others e-liquids. If you start killing them alot faster than others then they will probably do something. It boils down to what is fair for the customer and company.

 

[Kate]

We need regulated eliquid that is made of quality ingredients that won't kill atomisers (or us). That is what is missing, not stipulations that we use certain brands. All brands being sold should be fit for purpose.

 

[trog100]

first its not necessary to state guarantees in the UK.. the rest of the world might differ.. its also very hard to enforce a guarantee when a product is bought from another country.. i would sooner just sell to the UK and let buyers simply be covered by UK law.. but i have shipped screwdrivers abroad.. the foreign buyers wont have any problems as regards service or faulty parts rest assured..

in the UK a consumer has certain legal rights.. the main one being..

A product has to be fit for the purpose its sold for.. which includes remaining functional as regards that purpose for a reasonable time..

but it works both ways.. the product has to be used for the purpose its sold for.. if the buyer dosnt do this there are no legal rights.. no guarantee..

now back to e cigs.. on planet trog no sensible e cig seller would guarantee a product that permits the user to put any old junk they like in the atomizer..

the folks on planet kate seem to think they should..

so we are back to the purpose its sold for.. at best a seller would state what liquid can be used in their devices.. they dont do this cos it woud be promoting the competitors product..

but its reasonable to assume no e cig is sold to be fed any junk the user cares to put in it.. they can do this with a screwdriver if they so wish cos we are honest enough to declare to the buyer that atomizers are disposable.. we offer no guarantee except DOA with atomizers..

in fact we would rather just sell the device itself.. but folks want the other bits so we include them..

what i dont like doing is putting absolute time limits on things.. this works both ways..

trog

 

[trog100]

First of all, you have no evidence to show that you arent smoking older juice yourself

did i say i have jigtg.. i have no absolute evidence to show it wont kill me ether.. he he

trog

 

[Josiah]

I have to apologize, but I don't like the government telling me what contracts I can and cannot enter in to... It's really none of their business, and a guarantee is just that: a contract. As far as the idea of regulation, if someone sells a consumable product that turns out to be poison...it's a pretty clear cut case, don't you think? Regulation just limits the market place above and beyond what its intended purpose is, and increases costs. It also tends to decrease competition and selection.

You're right, though. It would be nice to have some very clear information about the eliquid people are buying. The question is, would you be willing to pay more for it?

 

[trog100]

We need regulated eliquid that is made of quality ingredients that won't kill atomisers (or us). That is what is missing, not stipulations that we use certain brands. All brands being sold should be fit for purpose.

in perfect world everything being sold should be fit for the purpose.. but first we have to define that purpose..

at present we are in the unknown world of chinese selling methods which in truth carry no guarantee of anything..

what is the purpose an e cig is sold for.. i know what ruyan intended it to be used for.. an occasional use device to be used as a real smoking alternative when it isnt considered socially or legally acceptable to smoke real cigarettes..

they did not under any circumstances intend it to be used as a total smoking replacement. device to be used all day and every day..

and here we have the root of the problem.. what is the purpose an e cig is sold for..

trog

 

[Kate]

The folk on planet Kate think that people should prioritise the safest product, I have never said any old junk, you're getting your own values mixed in there Trog.

I want the choice to use whatever product I think is best for me, not one that a supplier deems good for the hardware. As I said, what is missing is industry standards, all eliquid should be safe and fit for purpose. The lack of standards will not be overcome with conditional guarantees. Responsible manufacturers and suppliers should be working towards quality regarding juice. Regulation should be welcomed because it will level the field, good suppliers will no longer have to compete with dodgy, cheapskate competitors.

Implying that UK consumer law covers your product is well and good but it all hinges on what you define as 'reasonable' use and 'reasonable' durability. Vague enough to get away without having to write your own small print.

EDIT
The purpose of eliquid is quite clear, it is a flavoured nicotine liquid designed to be vapourised and inhaled into human lungs. It should be fit for that purpose.

 

[smoking gnu]

I do sort of see your point trog but to be fare a taxi is used a bit more than an average car. lol But your quite right suppliers will I think start to bring in a fare usage policy like our beloved internet providers. Although how they could prove that someone has over used their e cig is beyond me. Maybe some sort of chip in them to count the number of cycles. I don’t class myself as a heavy e cig smoker, 20 a day would be about right. So maybe that’s why my atomizers have lasted. But if suppliers and manufactures aren’t pulled up on faulty equipment then they will never try to improve.