E-liquid VG or Optim?

[zoiDman]

Well from all the vendors I've come across they say they are using VG so I just assumed the bulk of the industry is using it. I could be wrong though.

I would say that the Bulk of the e-liquid Industry is using USP Grade VG.

But that is Not to Say that there are Not Vendors who are using Lesser Grades. Or Ungraded for that Matter.

There are NO Standards or Enforcement for making/selling an e-liquid Today. You want to put Glow in the Dark Dye in your e-liquid, who's to Stop you? Got a Good Deal on some Polystyrene Bottles, No Problem. Just fill them up with "Juice" and ship them Down the Road. Your Mixer coming down with Ebola? Well he can go home After he gets Todays shipments Mixed.

I'm not a Huge Fan of Government Regulations. And would like to Less Regs vs. More Regs.

But e-Liquid Regulations will have some Good Benefits. Unfortunately, they will also have some Very Bad Ramifications Also.

 

[Geoffrey White]

Well from all the vendors I've come across they say they are using VG so I just assumed the bulk of the industry is using it. I could be wrong though.

I would say that the Bulk of the e-Liquid Industry is using USP Grade VG.

But that is Not to Say that there are Not Vendors who are using Lesser Grades. Or Ungraded for that Matter.

There are NO Standards or Enforcement for making/selling an e-Liquid Today. You want to put Glow in the Dark Dye in your e-Liquid, who's to Stop you? Got a Good Deal on some Polystyrene Bottles, No Problem. Just fill them up with "Juice" and ship them Down the Road. Your Mixer coming down with Ebola? Well he can go home After he gets Todays shipments Mixed.

I'm not a Huge Fan of Government Regulations. And would like to Less Regs vs. More Regs.

But e-Liquid Regulations will have some Good Benefits. Unfortunately, they will also have some Very Bad Ramifications Also.

I don't believe the industry is using USP VG - I think they're using food grade VG for exactly those reasons, and more, to be honest (cheaper raw materials, no real consequences, more profit). I think most DIYers are using USP VG, though.

I'd like to see e-cigs treated as an NRT in Canada, and have regulations on the minimum quality of the ingredients, and to have the quality/grade clearly marked on the label.

 

[jcmccord235]

My understanding is that USP VG must be 99.5% pure, but that 99.7% pure is available (essential depot, froggy's fog, etc.) Dow Optim is 99.8% pure. So, looking for the purest product, I called Dow last year for a quote. They told me over the phone that in no uncertain term they would not sell to any vaping related business.

Screw Dow.

 

[FastCarsAndCubanCigars]

My understanding is that USP VG must be 99.5% pure, but that 99.7% pure is available (essential depot, froggy's fog, etc.) Dow Optim is 99.8% pure. So, looking for the purest product, I called Dow last year for a quote. They told me over the phone that in no uncertain term they would not sell to any vaping related business.

Screw Dow.

Yikes! Well that explains why companies don't use it lol. Hopefully someone gets there hands on it and hopefully it's enough to start a line of juices or something. Where their is a will there is a away.

 

[FastCarsAndCubanCigars]

I don't believe the industry is using USP VG - I think they're using food grade VG for exactly those reasons, and more, to be honest (cheaper raw materials, no real consequences, more profit). I think most DIYers are using USP VG, though.

I'd like to see e-cigs treated as an NRT in Canada, and have regulations on the minimum quality of the ingredients, and to have the quality/grade clearly marked on the label.

I agree with you on this point for sure!!

 

[Alien Traveler]

Dow Optim is 99.7 pure
OPTIM - The OPTIM Advantage | The Dow Chemical Company

Quite a few e-liquid sellers state they use 99.7 pure VG, for example
OPTIM - The OPTIM Advantage | The Dow Chemical Company

So, either they use dow optim, or other manufacturer of the equally pure VG. Forget about optim, it does not worth mentioning. You already have about the same product.

 

[Geoffrey White]

Dow Optim is 99.7 pure
OPTIM - The OPTIM Advantage | The Dow Chemical Company

Quite a few e-liquid sellers state they use 99.7 pure VG, for example
OPTIM - The OPTIM Advantage | The Dow Chemical Company

So, either they use dow optim, or other manufacturer of the equally pure VG. Forget about optim, it does not worth mentioning. You already have about the same product.

Although it's true that Dow Optim is a minimum 99.7% pure, just like a few other USP VGs, it is synthetic glycerin, not plant based, and so is the only glycerin at minimum 99.7% purity that we know for certain doesn't contain specific toxins that might be in plant based glycerin.

Also, your first and second links direct to the same URL.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Although it's true that Dow Optim is a minimum 99.7% pure, just like a few other USP VGs, it is synthetic glycerin, not plant based, and so is the only glycerin at minimum 99.7% purity that we know for certain doesn't contain specific toxins that might be in plant based glycerin.

Also, your first and second links direct to the same URL.

Sorry for second link, but somebody in this thread already mentioned sources of e-liquids with 99.7% VG.
As for “synthetic” – most (may be all) USP grade glycerin is synthetic glycerin. Why it is still called “vegetable” – I have no idea. So nothing unique in optim. It’s equivalents are here already.

 

[FastCarsAndCubanCigars]

Sorry for second link, but somebody in this thread already mentioned sources of e-liquids with 99.7% VG.
As for “synthetic” – most (may be all) USP grade glycerin is synthetic glycerin. Why it is still called “vegetable” – I have no idea. So nothing unique in optim. It’s equivalents are here already.

Well can't argue with that. Since it's equivalent is already being used, I'm not sure why they even make Optim. I mean I understand that it's used in high end pharmaceutical applications why not just use USP VG lol. But like I stated before based off what I was reading and personal opinion Optim would be the best chemical without a doubt for E-liquids.

But make great points so can't really argue lol.

Kinda makes me think though, since Optim is so hard to get are we just using VG because we can get our hands on it? If we could get Optim would this conversation be different? Like no we shouldn't use VG cause Optim has this or that.

Is it being an equivalent really good enough or do we want the best?

No need to answer the questions I was just thinking out loud lol.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[FastCarsAndCubanCigars]

Just thought I'd share what someone else on another thread said.

We've been monitoring these issues for years and have taken the advice of professional chemists and pharmacists.

The individual vaper should buy a glycerine product marked 'Glycerine, USP' (USA) or 'Glycerine, BP' (UK) or 'Glycerine, EU' (in the EU). Assuming the product is not counterfeit, it will be the best grade available to the retail buyer. The label heading must be exactly this without any variation. The product may also be described in the smaller print as glycerol, glycerin, pharmaceutical grade, food grade, kosher, vegetable glycerine, etc. (as the small print is irrelevant).

This is not the same as the absolute best grade, which is only available in practice to manufacturers, due to MOQ issues. Because we have to give advice to both ecig manufacturers and retail buyers, our advice sometimes appears confusing, and I apologise for that.

The absolute best grade of glycerine is 100% synthetic because it is almost pure and the contaminant is likely to be water. We only know of one product of this type, Dow Optim. It is available in 18 litre jugs and up, and is the best possible base material for manufacturers.

Other suitable types for manufacturers are any glycerine product with a provable pharmaceutical license for inhalation, as used for example in asthma inhalers. However it has recently become necessary to order tests for a specific contaminant that may be present: see below.


The reason why Glycerine, USP is not the best choice for a manufacturer
For some time now the FDA has been warning about a specific type of contamination in glycerine products which has appeared in all grades including USP. This is called jatropha. The carcinogenic phorbol esters of the jatropha plant are found in biodiesel byproduct glycerine.

Because USP glycerine can be produced from any of the multiple feedstocks used to produce glycerine retail products, some USP glycerine will contain biodiesel byproduct glycerine (which of course qualifies as 'vegetable glycerine' as it is processed from vegetable sources) and may contain jatropha toxins. Currently there is no known way to exclude jatropha toxins from normal glycerine. The only solution is to use 100% synthetic glycerine, which is why it should be used by manufacturers of e-liquid products unless they have access to guaranteed pure products supported by analytical proof THAT SPECIFICALLY INCLUDES DOCUMENTED TESTING for jatropha toxins.

A synthetic glycerine such as Dow Optim is the best solution for manufacturing. Retail customers could conceivably form a club to buy a minimum size jug of 18 litres.

We hope this explains the current situation regarding the purity of glycerine products, and especially the retail purchase vs manufacturing issues.

 

[Geoffrey White]

Sorry for second link, but somebody in this thread already mentioned sources of e-liquids with 99.7% VG.
As for “synthetic” – most (may be all) USP grade glycerin is synthetic glycerin. Why it is still called “vegetable” – I have no idea. So nothing unique in optim. It’s equivalents are here already.

I think FastCarsAndCubanCigars just touched on this above, quoting rolygate, but...

I'm curious as to where you found this information, because I was under the impression that most Glycerin, USP was typically animal based, plant based, or a mixture thereof.

As far as I know, it's most often created as a byproduct of bio-diesel manufacturing, sold to other companies dirt-cheap, who then purify it to the appropriate level for the grade they intend to sell (meaning that most glycerin is likely plant based), unless I'm completely mistaken.

 

[zoiDman]

...

As for “synthetic” – most (may be all) USP grade glycerin is synthetic glycerin. Why it is still called “vegetable” – I have no idea. So nothing unique in optim. It’s equivalents are here already.

Can you post some links to where you are getting this Information?

 

[Alien Traveler]

You know, glycerin can be dangerous.
Let’s take a look at MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET of USP Grade Kosher Glycerin 99.7%:
https://www.cargill.com/wcm/groups/...s/document/iols-mdsd-usp-grade-kosher-gly.pdf

“CAUTION!
High mist concentrations may cause irritation of respiratory tract.
Potential Health Effects
Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation
…
4 FIRST AID MEASURES
Inhalation: If symptomatic, move to fresh air. Get medical attention if symptoms persist.
”

Go figure…
OK, I am joking. But all above is true.

 

[Geoffrey White]

You know, glycerin can be dangerous.
Let’s take a look at MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET of USP Grade Kosher Glycerin 99.7%:
https://www.cargill.com/wcm/groups/...s/document/iols-mdsd-usp-grade-kosher-gly.pdf

“CAUTION!
High mist concentrations may cause irritation of respiratory tract.
Potential Health Effects
Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation
…
4 FIRST AID MEASURES
Inhalation: If symptomatic, move to fresh air. Get medical attention if symptoms persist.
”

Go figure…
OK, I am joking. But all above is true.

Now, look up the MSDS for water, and tell me if you see any similarities.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Now, look up the MSDS for water, and tell me if you see any similarities.

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927321

Nothing bad about water in contrast to glycerin.

 

[FastCarsAndCubanCigars]

You know, glycerin can be dangerous.
Let’s take a look at MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET of USP Grade Kosher Glycerin 99.7%:
https://www.cargill.com/wcm/groups/...s/document/iols-mdsd-usp-grade-kosher-gly.pdf

“CAUTION!
High mist concentrations may cause irritation of respiratory tract.
Potential Health Effects
Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation
…
4 FIRST AID MEASURES
Inhalation: If symptomatic, move to fresh air. Get medical attention if symptoms persist.
”

Go figure…
OK, I am joking. But all above is true.

Is there a difference between Glycerin and synthetic Glycerin? Also that MSDS Glycerin intended use is for industrial use I believe not pharmaceutical...I'm not sure if that even matters or if it makes a difference just something I noticed.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Is there a difference between Glycerin and synthetic Glycerin? Also that MSDS Glycerin intended use is for industrial use I believe not pharmaceutical...I'm not sure if that even matters or if it makes a difference just something I noticed.

It is for pharma grade glycerin, i.e. synthetic glycerin. There is no “MSDS glycerin”, MSDS means document named Material Safety Data Sheet. So, it is for glycerin we use and for Optim glycerin also.

 

[FastCarsAndCubanCigars]

It is for pharma grade glycerin, i.e. synthetic glycerin. There is no “MSDS glycerin”, MSDS means document named Material Safety Data Sheet. So, it is for glycerin we use and for Optim glycerin also.

Oh ok! Got it!

For some reason I thought that Synthetic Glycerin is petroleum distilled, propylene comes off as a top fraction. Glycerin is made by adding chlorine to the molecule and then hydrolyzing the trichloropropane produced. Synthetic glycerin is used in exacting applications in biotechnology and pharmaceuticals because of its 99.7 percent purity. Prescription and over-the-counter drugs were initially formulated with synthetic glycerin and received FDA approval as such. To change to natural glycerin would entail new FDA approval processes.

When it comes to natural Glycerin from biodiesel fuel.... renewable sources of vegetable oil, waste cooking oil and beef tallow has created a market glut of glycerin. Biodiesel is prepared by adding methanol to the oil/fat source. The fatty acid portion of the molecule is esterified to biodiesel, and glycerin is produced as a byproduct. Crude glycerin is distilled and purified to a possible 99.5 percent purity with ion exchange resins.

But of course I've been proven wrong so far so I probably wrong.

 

[zoiDman]

...

As for “synthetic” – most (may be all) USP grade glycerin is synthetic glycerin. Why it is still called “vegetable” – I have no idea. So nothing unique in optim. It’s equivalents are here already.

Can you post some links to where you are getting this Information?

 

[Geoffrey White]

You know, glycerin can be dangerous.
Let’s take a look at MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET of USP Grade Kosher Glycerin 99.7%:
https://www.cargill.com/wcm/groups/...s/document/iols-mdsd-usp-grade-kosher-gly.pdf

“CAUTION!
High mist concentrations may cause irritation of respiratory tract.
Potential Health Effects
Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation
…
4 FIRST AID MEASURES
Inhalation: If symptomatic, move to fresh air. Get medical attention if symptoms persist.
”

Go figure…
OK, I am joking. But all above is true.

Keep in mind it just says that it, "may," cause respiratory tract irritation - I'd guess this is only for people with an intolerance, or allergy.

Also, I'm not sure if MSDS are all standard, because I've found MSDS for water that state, among other things, "may cause respiratory tract irritation," just as this one does for glycerin, but the one you provided a link to doesn't.

I wonder if the glycerin MSDS for ScienceLabs is different from the one you quoted, too?