E-petitions don't work, do not rely on them!

[MoonMan]

This thread is not against any single e-petition, but the idea of counting on them as a standalone policy-changing tool.

snopes.com: Internet Petitions

I'm moving the discussion going on here...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/campaigning/15806-lets-achieve-10-000-goal-petition.html

...to here. Let's talk about why e-petitions can be useless and damaging.

First things first - has an unsolicited e-petition ever accomplished anything it set out to do? No.

Can the signatures on an e-petition be verified? No.

Can those signatures be faked? Yes.

Will a deciding body rely on a list of possibly fake signatures? Would you?

 

[Fox3]

Yep, agree, all they do it make the signee feel better.

Pols have reached the point of arrogance that they will do whatever they damn well please :-(.

 

[Vapor Pete]

My proof lies in the fact that an e-petition has never been cited as a deciding factor in anything, or cited at all. Prove me wrong if you think it's just an opinion.

Again, you are saying you have proof, and it lies in a fact. You havent given your proof, which would back up the fact that you dont have. (thus far).

You are saying an e-petition has never been cited as a deciding factor. Has it been cited as NOT a deciding factor? I've thrown well over 300 people in jail over the last 10 years. It has not been cited. But its true. See my point? Just because something hasnt been cited doesnt make it untrue.
I think it may be your opinion. But I am not the one making the claim, so I need not prove anything.

Im not judging you or your opinion, or really your stance here, I will hold back until such time as you back up your truths. Im just saying, to claim something blatently ineffective, requires valid proof. Everything Im saying to you is fair and warrented given your statements, I hope you see that.
Right now, my unreplied to letters seem ineffective as well. Should I stop writing to my reps?
My best,
-VP

 

[MoonMan]

You're asking me to prove a negative, which isn't possible.

The burden of proof lies on the people that claim the positive (e-petitions work) exists. Until it's proven that they DO work, there's nothing to prove and it can logically be assumed they do nothing.

 

[moose88]

excellent post in my thread by reverand damience caine:

I do have to say that as far as any legality goes, the e-cig petition is worthless. It will not affect the FDA in anyway were it submitted to them as it does not follow their official format. They would literally, just shred the document without a further glance.

HOWEVER, What it does do is tell a few thousand stories, express the urgent of many to allow these devices, provides a base of first hand experiences to those who HAVE been using these devices to those who are simply intrigued. You could very well say it was useless to hit the 10k sig mark as there will be no flashing "YOU WIN" sign when it does hit. Yet if 10k people swear up and down by the product, others will be interested, start trying to find a supplier, and find out that the FDAs claims and action have no representation.

The petition was never meant to save the E-cig, it was meant to educate others, which in turn, COULD create a loud enough voice to be heard by the fellows at the FDA, even through the cash in their ears, which I believe Phillip Morris put there.

It was never about law, thinking so is absurd, it was simply a matter of making the voice of few into many.

hope we can end this petty argument and carry on vaping

 

[MoonMan]

hope we can end this petty argument and carry on vaping

IF the point of the petition is truly nothing more than spreading awareness, then I can see that. There are better ways, but I can see that.

HOWEVER, standing up against e-petitions as a good way to get policy changed is not a petty argument and needs to be addressed.

 

[Reverend Damien Caine]

Once again, to be clear. The E-Petition here is not valid for use in regards to the FDA. FDA has a very strict requirement regarding petitions, none of which mention e-petitions. The petition only does nothing for the ecig. However those reading will be compelled to learn more or try it themselves, it may also be cited in future legal cases, not as a official document, but as the voice of the masses.

In my opinion there never should be no limit to the petition, everyone on here who stands for the ecig should still sign the E-Petition. Not in hopes for direct legal action, but just to aide in the battle all together.

You can say that writing your Representative is pointless, but I disagree, keep writing them. Odds are they wont care about the battle for the ecigs, but they will care about how many people ARE writing to them on the subject.

 

[Vapor Pete]

You're asking me to prove a negative, which isn't possible.

Exactly. So to say they dont work is false. You cannot prove that negative statement, unless you had verified documentation that stated something like, "Despite the submitted e-petition, it was decided not to take into account the 10,000 signatures .... " etc. etc. That would prove your negative.

... there's nothing to prove and it can logically be assumed they do nothing.

It can also be assumed they do work. You've mentioned that your "proof lies in the fact..." , I have only asked you to provide the proof of your fact. You said you had proof, that is a positive statement. If you dont have it, then your statement is subjective, and must be discarded as opinion.

My best,
-VP

 

[MoonMan]

Exactly. So to say they dont work is false. You cannot prove that negative statement, unless you had verified documentation that stated something like, "Despite the submitted e-petition, it was decided not to take into account the 10,000 signatures .... " etc. etc. That would prove your negative.

You're just twisting and turning words here.

Until it's PROVEN that an e-petition changed ANYTHING, the ONLY thing that can be assumed is that they are pointless. You can't just assume they work with nothing to back it up, that's not how things work.

I could claim screaming at my lawn made the weeds die, but who would believe it unless I proved it?

 

[strayling]

Yep, agree, all they do it make the signee feel better.

I do many things simply because they make me feel better

 

[LaceyUnderall]

I think this petition has already proven it's worth... and the more who can sign it the better.

Bill Godshall found us by finding that petition. SmokeFree PA found us because of that petition. tobaccofree.org found us because SmokeFree PA has Bill Godshall and Bill Godshall found that petition.

From there, that little petition is now emailed out to over 4000 people on a daily basis who fall into the anti-smoking camp and want to see tobacco harm reduction succeed and the ecig is definitely a form of tobacco harm reduction.

And I beg to differ the petition doesn't carry weight with the FDA... Read this link if you don't believe it: FDA Simultaneous Marketing ANPRM Comment Excerpts Sorted By Issue 3 thru 5

"FDA's jurisdiction over the "safety and efficacy" of drugs provides it with legal authority to consider morality, misuse, age-appropriate sexual behavior, and related social issues"

 

[MoonMan]

And I beg to differ the petition doesn't carry weight with the FDA... Read this link if you don't believe it: FDA Simultaneous Marketing ANPRM Comment Excerpts Sorted By Issue 3 thru 5

"FDA's jurisdiction over the "safety and efficacy" of drugs provides it with legal authority to consider morality, misuse, age-appropriate sexual behavior, and related social issues"

Where in that legalese does it mention an e-petition?

 

[kr0nicle]

nice post lacey! besides, who here is "Relying" on that petition?

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Where in that legalese does it mention an e-petition?

The point is that they can take into consideration "FDA's jurisdiction over the "safety and efficacy" of drugs provides it with legal authority to consider morality, misuse, age-appropriate sexual behavior, and related social issues" and testimonials from users is just that, "related social issues".

 

[LaceyUnderall]

nice post lacey! besides, who here is "Relying" on that petition?

not I said the fly... but all of it together, adds up. (hopefully)

 

[kr0nicle]

Where in that legalese does it mention an e-petition?

"social issues" = if a ton of people are going to get angry if you pull thier product off the market.. this would apply.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

"social issues" = if a ton of people are going to get angry if you pull thier product off the market.. this would apply.

and... if a ton of people feel they would be given a death sentence by being forced to go back to tobacco. definitely a social issue. mostly a rights issue... but that in itself is a social issue too.

 

[MoonMan]

The point is that they can take into consideration "FDA's jurisdiction over the "safety and efficacy" of drugs provides it with legal authority to consider morality, misuse, age-appropriate sexual behavior, and related social issues" and testimonials from users is just that, "related social issues".

That's FAR from proving an e-petition has any bearing in the case. "Social issues" could mean any number of things.

 

[kr0nicle]

moonman - the point trying to be made here is that every little bit helps! so lets all just abandon the petition because it won't work then! i do not think so!

 

[stevejo]

So, first off, forgive me, as I am a tad late to this discussion (damn work getting in the way of my forum lurking!) but from my point of view (strictly a point of view, or opinion) I think that wasting time arguing this is hurting our cause.

For every reply that you post arguing who said what, you could be sending an email to a colleague who smokes about e-cigs.

You could be on facebook, myspace, digg, or other releveant site looking for information on e-cigs and promoting it.

As a new e-smoker, I am in love with pv, including the variety of options it affords me, the health benefits that (tested or not) I can feel, and the copious amount of wonderful information I have found in the subculture that this product has generated.

I know every time I get a chance to talk to someone about e-cigs, I do. This is what will help our cause more than anything, regardless of how much its argues effective or ineffecitve. The fact that I agree with the peole who support it, if for nothign else as a means of spreading the word regarding e-cigs, has no bearing on the fact that I still make an effort to give every smoker that I know or meet the opportunity to see just how great these products are.

So, after you read this thread, and before you head to sleep tonight, try to take an opportunity to talk to someone about an e-cig. Give them personal experiences, point them in the direction of this forum, give them a card from your favorite supplier, anything to help show the public in general that these are a LIFE-SAVING PRODUCT for those who choose to use them.

--Steve

EDIT:

And for those that just cant think of anything to do to help us, go to digg and search for 'electronic cigarette' -- find a positive story and digg it.

Just clicking that little 'digg' button when you find a story that sheds a positive light on us (even despite all the ignorant comments) gets these stories attention and gets them read.