Effects When First Vaping?

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Visionairy

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I do buy the idea that nicotine isn't particularly harmful, possibly even not at all. A couple more studies that show that it's not addictive would probably do it for me, but nothing you've posted links to specifically say that it's not addictive at all, just that it is not highly addictive on its own.
 
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AndriaD

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To the OP. Don't start nicotine because you like the buzz. That will go away very soon and you will probably never feel that again, so don't get your hopes up.

I've become convinced over my years of switching between vaping and smoking, that a large part of what keeps us hooked on cigarettes is many many other chemicals. I've called it the "carbon monoxide buzz". Otherwise there would be NO reason to have any difficulty trading smoking for vaping. Even at ridiculous nic levels vaping (up to 60mg for me, at low wattage) I have a hard time quitting smoking completely. I think I'm really addicted to benzene and formaldehyde, or some other nasty chemicals.

BUT, do NOT start nicotine if you haven't smoked.

As far as that government report referenced above. I just don't buy it. I'd need to see more. Convincing me that nic is not addictive would be about as hard as convincing me the sky is not blue.

One point though, I've read that some people have a particular liver enzyme that reduces that individuals propensity to actually become addicted to nicotine, or smoking. I believe this because of the people I know who are light smokers and can quit at the drop of a hat.

I was a very light smoker -- pk a day or less, of ultra-lights, for 20+ yrs of the 39 yrs that I smoked. But I could not quit -- until vaping came along, and I quit very easily, using 6mg nicotine. I wasn't using WTA, my first go-round, but it was still very easy, at a very low nic level -- I think because of a) the substitution of the behavior, and b) the pure novelty of being able to go without smoking and not suffer for it. But it certainly wasn't the nicotine that eased the process -- I've tried the patch before, and it did NOTHING for cigarette cravings; all it did was give me heart palpitations, nausea, interfere with my sleep, and essentially make me psychotic.

After my post-appendectomy relapse, I came back to smoke-free using 10mg... and still suffered such ungodly cravings, I had no choice but to add WTA -- because I could not vape a higher level of nicotine without extreme nausea. Once I added the WTA, the cravings COMPLETELY VANISHED. Since April of 2015, I reduced that 10mg nicotine to 5mg, and barely even noticed it was happening, except the TH got lighter. Since January of 2015, I've reduced my WTA percentage from 10% total volume, to .7% -- but after every drop, dropping by one percentage point or less, for about a week, I felt like I just could not vape enough. I felt depressed, angry, out of sorts.

The addictive drug is NOT nicotine. It is all the chemicals that are in cigarettes that go along with the nicotine, that reinforce it, that speed it helter-skelter to the brain, that make the nicotine more potent and efficiently-delivered. And yes, also the toxins in cigarette smoke, to which one becomes habituated; some people perhaps become SO habituated, that they miss those toxins when they're gone.

But you're right about one thing: once one acquires a tolerance for a certain level of nicotine, the dizziness provoked by that quantity of nicotine goes away. That does NOT mean one is addicted, it means one has a tolerance; there is a huge difference between the 2 states. Addiction means you will lie, cheat, rob, assault, mug, steal from your grandmother, blow off your job, your spouse, your kids, to get the substance you need. Tolerance means it no longer makes you ill -- or dizzy. But if you go beyond the level to which your body is tolerant, it will still make you dizzy -- even when I vaped 10mg, 12mg made me dizzy. And right after that, nausea.

Andria
 

Visionairy

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First off, what is WTA?

Also, I'd entertain the possibility that many of us have imbalances that just plain make us a nervous wreck without something to calm us, like nicotine. Basically maybe we're born needing it, like certain people needing psych meds or asthma or seizure medications. Personally, anytime I've quit nicotine for extended periods of time I have had occasional panic attacks, which I do not get now that I'm vaping.
 

AndriaD

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First off, what is WTA?

Also, I'd entertain the possibility that many of us have imbalances that just plain make us a nervous wreck without something to calm us, like nicotine. Basically maybe we're born needing it, like certain people needing psych meds or asthma or seizure medications. Personally, anytime I've quit nicotine for extended periods of time I have had occasional panic attacks, which I do not get now that I'm vaping.

Angry Vaper - About WTA

Andria
 
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WattWick

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This is not a matter of "my link is better than your link". There is NO credible evidence that nicotine, delivered outside of tobacco, is addictive. All links discussing the addictive nature of nicotine simply label nicotine as the sole evil causative agent, while discussing the affects of tobacco. And that is a FACT until someone finds such a credible link.

The FACT here is not if nicotine could be addictive, if vaped long term. The FACT is the lack of evidence that nicotine delivered by itself is addictive. Even the FDA acknowledged that here:

Federal Register | Modifications To Labeling of Nicotine Replacement Therapy Products for Over-the-Counter Human Use

You have to dig deep to find this...

"We also note that although any nicotine-containing product has the potential to be addicting, based on the available evidence, currently marketed OTC NRT products do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence. A 2010 review of historical reports made to the Agency's Adverse Event Reporting System and to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration's Drug Abuse Warning Network between 1984 and 2009 suggested that NRT products have a low potential for abuse. Several published studies have also found that the abuse liability and dependence potential of NRT products is low, especially compared to cigarettes (see West et al., 2000; Houtsmuller et al., 2002)."

The FDA concluded that there is little or no cause for concern related to nicotine addiction, when used outside of tobacco in NRTs, and therefore it changed the labeling requirements of NRTs. That is also a basis for allowing OTC sales.

While I'm tempted to bite; I stand by my stated opinion.
 

leftyandsparky

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I think everyone is forgetting that the OP is 18. Yes in some states he is old enough to smoke and Yes he is old enough to fight for our country. I like to think as a parent we don't want our children to make the same mistakes we made. If he want to blow clouds with friends fine do that but he doesn't have to have nicotine. As far as the studies everyone keeps bashing back and fourth if he(18yr.) Doesn't need it for the medical reasons than why try it?(nicotine)...
 

JMarca

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How did we get from helping the kid figure out his dizzy spells to a Diketone and Alkaloids discussion?

Here we go...

homerpopcorn1.jpg
 

VNeil

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While I'm tempted to bite; I stand by my stated opinion.
So let me get this straight... you say this is merely a battle of "my link is better than yours". But when I challenge you to provide a comparable credible link countering mine, you can't, but stand by your assertion anyway? OK, we can all interpret that as we see fit.
 

AndriaD

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So let me get this straight... you say this is merely a battle of "my link is better than yours". But when I challenge you to provide a comparable credible link countering mine, you can't, but stand by your assertion anyway? OK, we can all interpret that as we see fit.

It well illustrates the usual irrationality of most humans. ;) "Here are some facts... but I stand by my opinion which is completely contrary to the facts because.. well... it's MINE!" :D

Andria
 

Grimwald

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If anyone ever invents a time machine and I could go back to my 18 year old self, sitting in a dorm room, lighting up that first cigarette...
I would kick my 18 year old self in the .....

Use 0mg nic...don't start a nicotine habit.

OK, rant over...deep breaths...feeling much better now.
 

VNeil

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It well illustrates the usual irrationality of most humans. ;) "Here are some facts... but I stand by my opinion which is completely contrary to the facts because.. well... it's MINE!" :D

Andria
There is a long standing trend here on this site. Someone makes an assertion (as fact) with no basis whatsoever. When faced with overwhelming evidence that they have no basis for their assertion, they then throw down some variant of "the facts don't matter" card. And I find that a sad state of affairs. Especially surrounding such a critical issue as this, and this may be the most critical political issue of the entire vaping debate. If it became widely understood that nicotine, ingested by never smokers, is no more dependence creating than caffeine, and no more harmful in any substantial way, and far more beneficial in significant ways, it would totally change the debate.

In fact, it would argue that either nicotine should be sold next to the coffee on supermarket shelves, and taxed comparably, or caffeine should be sequestered in locked cages behind the customer service counter, along with the cigs and cigalikes, and require proof of age to purchase. And sin taxed at a 200 - 1000% rate.

But we can't have that, can we? So the Facts Cannot Matter.
 

AndriaD

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If anyone ever invents a time machine and I could go back to my 18 year old self, sitting in a dorm room, lighting up that first cigarette...
I would kick my 18 year old self in the .....

Use 0mg nic...don't start a nicotine habit.

OK, rant over...deep breaths...feeling much better now.

The point of all this arguing is that if a person hasn't first been addicted to TOBACCO, there won't be any "habit" associated with the use of nicotine. Or at least, no more of a habit than that associated with caffeine use.

I realize it's difficult for a former smoker to comprehend this, since we've all been brainwashed to associate nicotine with smoking... but nicotine is NOT why smoking is addictive, or at best, only a very small part of the reason.

Andria
 

VNeil

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If anyone ever invents a time machine and I could go back to my 18 year old self, sitting in a dorm room, lighting up that first cigarette...
I would kick my 18 year old self in the .....

Use 0mg nic...don't start a nicotine habit.

OK, rant over...deep breaths...feeling much better now.
:facepalm:
 

AndriaD

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There is a long standing trend here on this site. Someone makes an assertion (as fact) with no basis whatsoever. When faced with overwhelming evidence that they have no basis for their assertion, they then throw down some variant of "the facts don't matter" card. And I find that a sad state of affairs. Especially surrounding such a critical issue as this, and this may be the most critical political issue of the entire vaping debate. If it became widely understood that nicotine, ingested by never smokers, is no more dependence creating than caffeine, and no more harmful in any substantial way, and far more beneficial in significant ways, it would totally change the debate.

In fact, it would argue that either nicotine should be sold next to the coffee on supermarket shelves, and taxed comparably, or caffeine should be sequestered in locked cages behind the customer service counter, along with the cigs and cigalikes, and require proof of age to purchase. And sin taxed at a 200 - 1000% rate.

But we can't have that, can we? So the Facts Cannot Matter.

Absolutely agree.

And I would agree with whoever said that a strong caffeine dependency is not very comfortable to try and reverse... but the fact is that MANY people ingest caffeine on a regular basis, and do not have any particular dependency on it, or at least, no more of a dependency than needing/wanting a cup or two of coffee or tea in the morning, to wake up. I wouldn't call that an "addiction." People who go around sucking up coffee/espresso like it's air, yeah, that's an addiction, and those people will become very uncomfortable and very unpleasant if forced to do without it -- but those people are a very small minority.

Now that I'm off cigarettes for over a year, but vape nicotine, if I was forced to go without it, I'd be a bit grumpy, but I would NOT be borderline-psycho as I always was when forced to go without smoking for more than an hour -- and I'm a former long-term smoker. Someone who's never been habituated to tobacco use of any kind would not be even THAT discountenanced by doing without nicotine.

Andria
 
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VNeil

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Absolutely agree.

And I would agree with whoever said that a strong caffeine dependency is not very comfortable to try and reverse... but the fact is that MANY people ingest caffeine on a regular basis, and do not have any particular dependency on it, or at least, no more of a dependency than needing/wanting a cup or two of coffee or tea in the morning, to wake up. I wouldn't call that an "addiction." People who go around sucking up coffee/espresso like it's air, yeah, that's an addiction, and those people will become very uncomfortable and very unpleasant if forced to do without it -- but those people are a very small minority.

Now that I'm off cigarettes for over a year, but vape nicotine, if I was forced to go without it, I'd be a bit grumpy, but I would NOT be borderline-psycho as I always was when forced to go without smoking for more than an hour -- and I'm a former long-term smoker. Someone who's never been habituated to tobacco use of any kind would not be even THAT discountenanced by doing without nicotine.

Andria
When I worked down to 3mg I tried vaping 0mg, and had trouble at all. But if I stopped vaping for even an hour I was uncomfortable. That was when the idea of behavior dependency vs chemical dependency really hit home for me.

I went back to 3mg because I see no harm, but I see some benefits. I see no more reason to eliminate nic than my morning couple of cups of coffee.
 

VNeil

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I do buy the idea that nicotine isn't particularly harmful, possibly even not at all. A couple more studies that show that it's not addictive would probably do it for me, but nothing you've posted links to specifically say that it's not addictive at all, just that it is not highly addictive on its own.
Well, that is the whole point- that it is not addictive on it's own. Nicotine may be very addictive when ingested with tobacco compounds, or maybe it's more complicated than that (likely). But isn't that all very irrelevant to a never smoker like the OP? I don't understand your point.

You may need a couple more studies but apparently the FDA (who has surely seen all of them) is quite convinced. This is a very well understood concept. I just don't have a library of links for you. But if you are not convinced I'm sure you can find many more studies if you care to search for the truth here.
 
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AndriaD

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When I worked down to 3mg I tried vaping 0mg, and had trouble at all. But if I stopped vaping for even an hour I was uncomfortable. That was when the idea of behavior dependency vs chemical dependency really hit home for me.

I went back to 3mg because I see no harm, but I see some benefits. I see no more reason to eliminate nic than my morning couple of cups of coffee.

Very similar to what I've experienced -- I smoked ultra-light cigarettes for a very long time, but no way could I quit smoking, even going for more than an hour made me quite insane. Till I was able to vape, and mimic the behavior and sensations of smoking, which made quitting smoking a snap -- until I had the appendectomy, and suddenly required WTA.

I had zero trouble halving my nic from 10mg to 5mg.... really didn't even notice, except the lighter TH -- which I fixed by adding more Flash. But dropping the WTA has been a battle for every percentage point I've dropped, and STILL not finished, more than a year later.

I could probably vape 0mg for a year and if I quit at that point, I'd STILL have cigarette cravings -- though I had none while vaping 0mg. But like you, I have zero interest in going any lower than my current 5mg -- unless/until the FDA makes it impossible or very expensive to buy liquid nicotine -- at which point, I'd halve my nic level again, thus doubling my nic stash again, from 10 to 20 yrs. I'll be 55 this year, and given that I smoked for nearly 40 yrs, if I can live till I'm 75, I will feel quite blessed.

Andria
 
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WattWick

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It well illustrates the usual irrationality of most humans. ;) "Here are some facts... but I stand by my opinion which is completely contrary to the facts because.. well... it's MINE!" :D

Andria

That is a bit unexpected coming from one of the forum members I respect the most. As long as the shoe does not fit, I won't take grave offense, tho :)

Vneil apparently did not understand my post and mistook it for me taking sides in game of Source Wars about nicotine being addictive or not. I was giving my opinion of the game; not picking sides in it - as I believe is evident in my post. An opinion still unswayed by the ensuing ridicule of my rationality and "most humans"-ness. :D

I do not care to participate in the game - as I find it pseudointellectual, at best. Nor am I interested in fighting for an opinion handed to me by mistake. By 'handed to me' I really mean: thrown in my general direction in what I believe is called 'a hissyfit'.
 
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AndriaD

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That is a bit unexpected coming from one of the forum members I respect the most. As long as the shoe does not fit, I won't take grave offense, tho :)

Vneil apparently did not understand my post and mistook it for me taking sides in game of Source Wars about nicotine being addictive or not. I was giving my opinion of the game; not picking sides in it - as I believe is evident in my post. An opinion still unswayed by the ensuing ridicule of my rationality and "most humans"-ness. :D

I do not care to participate in the game - as I find it pseudointellectual, at best. Nor am I interested in fighting for an opinion handed to me by mistake. By 'handed to me' I really mean: thrown in my general direction in what I believe is called 'a hissyfit'.

I have to say that I was really surprised to read your post, because I've always found your posts to be edifying and greatly worthwhile... but it does appear to be the very epitome of irrationality that when presented with facts, verified by many independent sources -- even those, such as the FDA, who would be much better served, given their hysteria over vaping, to report the exact opposite -- you stubbornly cling to what you acknowledge is opinion. To me, that is irrational -- like certain religious people who insist that the earth is only 6,000 yrs old, or back in ancient times, that the earth was flat. It is one thing to note that one's own experience may be different from that observed by science... and quite another to go on believing an unverified opinion when confronted by facts which contradict it, in fact not only to go on believing it, but to flatly contradict what has been observed by science.

If nicotine was really "addictive" when taken alone, it would not be available OTC. The fact that it is no more dependence-producing than caffeine is why it is as easily available as caffeine.

The experience of a great many vapers who have found it astonishingly easy to reduce nicotine, many down to 0mg, is merely anecdotal, particularly since most of us are former smokers, and thus our experiences have absolutely no bearing on nicotine's addictive potential to never-smokers... but the findings of science have no reason to lie, when those never-smokers who've engaged in trials of nicotine as medication do not go on to crave nicotine and seek to obtain it by any means possible. If nicotine, used alone (in the absence of everything else that's in tobacco) by never-smokers truly was "addictive," those who've been part of those medication trials WOULD have developed dependence, if not outright addiction. But they have not. If they had, the ANTZ would have been ALL OVER! it, reporting it as far and wide as they could POSSIBLY spread it -- but they haven't said one word about it, because the finding contradicts everything they've said for so long about nicotine being as addictive as street narcotics.

In the face of that, to continue to believe that nicotine, when used alone by never-smokers, is addictive, is simply irrational -- there is no other word for it.

Andria
 
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