Effects When First Vaping?

[WattWick]

I have to say that I was really surprised to read your post, because I've always found your posts to be edifying and greatly worthwhile... but it does appear to be the very epitome of irrationality that when presented with facts, verified by many independent sources -- even those, such as the FDA, who would be much better served, given their hysteria over vaping, to report the exact opposite -- you stubbornly cling to what you acknowledge is opinion. To me, that is irrational -- like certain religious people who insist that the earth is only 6,000 yrs old, or back in ancient times, that the earth was flat. It is one thing to note that one's own experience may be different from that observed by science... and quite another to go on believing an unverified opinion when confronted by facts which contradict it, in fact not only to go on believing it, but to flatly contradict what has been observed by science.

If nicotine was really "addictive" when taken alone, it would not be available OTC. The fact that it is no more dependence-producing than caffeine is why it is as easily available as caffeine.

The experience of a great many vapers who have found it astonishingly easy to reduce nicotine, many down to 0mg, is merely anecdotal, particularly since most of us are former smokers, and thus our experiences have absolutely no bearing on nicotine's addictive potential to never-smokers... but the findings of science have no reason to lie, when those never-smokers who've engaged in trials of nicotine as medication do not go on to crave nicotine and seek to obtain it by any means possible. If nicotine, used alone (in the absence of everything else that's in tobacco) by never-smokers truly was "addictive," those who've been part of those medication trials WOULD have developed dependence, if not outright addiction. But they have not. If they had, the ANTZ would have been ALL OVER! it, reporting it as far and wide as they could POSSIBLY spread it -- but they haven't said one word about it, because the finding contradicts everything they've said for so long about nicotine being as addictive as street narcotics.

In the face of that, to continue to believe that nicotine, when used alone by never-smokers, is addictive, is simply irrational -- there is no other word for it.

Andria

I must point out that it is not me who holds a conviction (in the "science" of Financially Driven Agenda (a.k.a FDA)) sufficiently deeply rooted to give advice on a compound of topics ranging from of CNS stimulants to "addiction"/dependence/deeply rooted habits.

That is as much of a Source War as I'm willing to entertain; a subtle swipe with the ol' Undermining Pickaxe. It is not an argument for or against nicotine. It's more an argument in the 6000 year old Earth debate - or a stab at Blind Faith, if you will.

I am not taking part in the debate on the addictive or non-addictive nature of nicotine. Not now - not with my post that caught all this flak. While our views on the matter may not be all that different, I (try to) be open to the possibilities - of both me being wrong, and me failing to see a bigger picture. The post was my reaction to others; who may not entertain such possibilities - giving bombastic One Truth advice.

I think the root of the matter is me unintentionally out-trolling a troll (not you, mind you ) by not participating in what I perceive as a trollish game of pseudointellectual whack-a-mole.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Hi there
I am new to vaping and had some questions about the effects. I am 18, and never really smoked cigs. I've always been interested in smoking and had a few cigs, but tried hard not to get hooked because of a bad family history. I believe vaping is much safer, so I took it up before getting hooked on cigs.
I'm vaping 12mg, and I can definitely tell a bit of a difference when vaping. After vaping 5mins+, I get a little bit dizzy. It's not a bad feeling at all, it feels good. Almost like a really light light buzz from drinking. I was wondering if this is normal from someone who doesn't use nicotine? or am I imagining things?

Are you getting serious vape pressure from your peers bruh...LOLZ

 

[AndriaD]

I must point out that it is not me who holds a conviction (in the "science" of Financially Driven Agenda (a.k.a FDA)) sufficiently deeply rooted to give advice on a compound of topics ranging from of CNS stimulants to "addiction"/dependence/deeply rooted habits.

That is as much of a Source War as I'm willing to entertain; a subtle swipe with the ol' Undermining Pickaxe. It is not an argument for or against nicotine. It's more an argument in the 6000 year old Earth debate - or a stab at Blind Faith, if you will.

I am not taking part in the debate on the addictive or non-addictive nature of nicotine. Not now - not with my post that caught all this flak. While our views on the matter may not be all that different, I (try to) be open to the possibilities - of both me being wrong, and me failing to see a bigger picture. The post was my reaction to others; who may not entertain such possibilities - giving bombastic One Truth advice.

I think the root of the matter is me unintentionally out-trolling a troll (not you, mind you ) by not participating in what I perceive as a trollish game of pseudointellectual whack-a-mole.

Ok. And I can completely understand that, and you're right... what is currently "known" may at some point be disproved. That is what I feel has happened with nicotine, that what we have always been told ("it's as addictive as ______!") has been shown to not be true. And that too may at some point be overturned. You're right that knowledge always has a plus element.

I just hate to see people telling someone who's never smoked "don't use nicotine or you'll turn into a nicotine fiend!" when, at this point, that seems MOST unlikely. I would absolutely go along with "don't smoke tobacco or you'll turn into a tobacco fiend!" because that seems to be absolutely true... or maybe it's just "don't smoke cigarettes or you'll turn into a cigarette fiend!"

Andria

 

[AXIOM_1]

@dylan andrews .... Enjoy the buzz, then jack up the nicotine to get an even larger buzz

The feeling you experience is normal as your body is not used to nicotine. My suggestion would be to lower the nicotine strength if the buzzed feeling bothers you. Carry on

 

[crxess]

Vape, don't vape - not my responsibility.
You are of legal age correct?
Do you consider yourself a smart person? Smart enough to make good decisions pertaining to your own health?

I would suggest, Vaping in Ops case is a Choice much like choosing to visit a Bar for a few drinks. A personal choice.

I would also suggest, for a Never smoker 12mg is likely unnecessary and 3mg or even 1mg may be plenty for that enhanced vape. Vaping -0- nic would be the smartest, I think I'd like to Vape, choice.

I do believe some people may be predisposed to Nicotine addiction through Genetic changes over generations of family members Smoking.
This does not mean they will automatically seek out Nicotine, but if ever exposed to Smoking they will likely become addicted to smoking<for the nicotine> in short order.
They will also be the ones finding it most difficult to break the addiction.
(JMO) from personal experience.

I wonder where the genetic studies are hiding?

Oops..........Found some links. Time to do even more reading
Smoking could be down to your genes, say scientists - Health news - NHS Choices

 

[AndriaD]

Vape, don't vape - not my responsibility.
You are of legal age correct?
Do you consider yourself a smart person? Smart enough to make good decisions pertaining to your own health?

I would suggest, Vaping in Ops case is a Choice much like choosing to visit a Bar for a few drinks. A personal choice.

I would also suggest, for a Never smoker 12mg is likely unnecessary and 3mg or even 1mg may be plenty for that enhanced vape. Vaping -0- nic would be the smartest, I think I'd like to Vape, choice.

I do believe some people may be predisposed to Nicotine addiction through Genetic changes over generations of family members Smoking.
This does not mean they will automatically seek out Nicotine, but if ever exposed to Smoking they will likely become addicted to smoking<for the nicotine> in short order.
They will also be the ones finding it most difficult to break the addiction.
(JMO) from personal experience.

I wonder where the genetic studies are hiding?

Oops..........Found some links. Time to do even more reading
Smoking could be down to your genes, say scientists - Health news - NHS Choices

I know that the so-called "Addiction disease" or maybe "disorder" is very definitely a matter of genetics -- and considering that I come from long, long lines of alcoholics and pathological gamblers.... I'm probably prone to every addiction that's possible, and such does seem to be the case -- though I've always found gambling to be rather stupid. (though I don't mind spending a VERY FEW bucks on lottery tickets... can't win if you don't play!).

Andria

 

[DC2]

I'm EXTREMELY addicted to sugar, so fond of it that I willingly exercise moderation in its consumption, so that I never reach a point of active diabetes and have to eliminate it entirely -- I like it too much for that!

I am pretty sure I am addicted to pizza, hamburgers, and See's Candies.
And this, despite the fact that I haven't had any of those in months.

But every minute of every day, I want them.
No, I CRAVE them, even now as I sit here typing.

 

[AndriaD]

I am pretty sure I am addicted to pizza, hamburgers, and See's Candies.
And this, despite the fact that I haven't had any of those in months.

But every minute of every day, I want them.
No, I CRAVE them, even now as I sit here typing.

I'm that way with blueberry muffins. If they are in my house, they will be eaten ASAP -- so I have to avoid them as completely as I avoid alcohol, because I really don't want to weigh 30 lbs more in 30 days. Other sweets and pastries, I can moderate myself beautifully, but never with blueberry muffins.

Andria

 

[WattWick]

Ok. And I can completely understand that, and you're right... what is currently "known" may at some point be disproved. That is what I feel has happened with nicotine, that what we have always been told ("it's as addictive as ______!") has been shown to not be true. And that too may at some point be overturned. You're right that knowledge always has a plus element.

I just hate to see people telling someone who's never smoked "don't use nicotine or you'll turn into a nicotine fiend!" when, at this point, that seems MOST unlikely. I would absolutely go along with "don't smoke tobacco or you'll turn into a tobacco fiend!" because that seems to be absolutely true... or maybe it's just "don't smoke cigarettes or you'll turn into a cigarette fiend!"

Andria

My stance is mainly based on my thinking that "addiction" is more than just about external substance stimuli by itself.

I do not directly equate (relatively) short-term medicinal use for treatments or studies with prolonged recreational use of the active ingredient. Besides, the source provided by Vneil (FDA) has a low credibility rating in my books. I don't trust the FDAs interpretation of handpicked "studies" of BP products any more than I trust their favorite vaping "studies".

Even if I did have faith in the source; I don't believe "abuse liability and dependence potential of NRT products is low" counts as factual evidence of anything other than exactly what it says. To me, that would be judging the addictive potential of alcohol, based on a daily spoon-full of Sherry for digestive purposes.

What is interpreted for me as caps-lock-worthy "FACTS" [sic]; I see as too non-conclusive (for me) to base any firm opinion on. I know others see it differently and find it sufficient. Yet I exercise my liberty to wave my "Buyer Beware"-flag. Even if it catches me a little ridicule and some furious demands to participate in an all-out Source War. That's just the spice of life.

This - and my previous posts - I believe is all I have to say about the matter. Unless something new comes up and makes me question my stance, I'll leave it at that. I find no pleasure in arguing for sake of arguing. But I did feel a need to elaborate my views. And, I prefer doing so by means of argumentation rather than relentless link postings.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Wow, I've read it all now. If it's just the act of smoking that is addictive, then what are smokeless tobacco users addicted to? Also, caffeine withdrawals aren't that pleasant either.

It is pretty ridiculous. You only read it I these forums. I guess nicorette gum addicts are really addicted to the chewing and the $60,000,000,000 smokeless tobacco industry relies on people needing to be bust with their hands. (Sarcasm)

Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Smokeless tobacco is still tobacco, and it contains hundreds of other compounds that are not present in vape juice. You've been propagandized since childhood to believe that nicotine=tobacco. That is simply not true and it is time to wake up and observe the facts of the matter.

The facts: hundreds of test subjects have been given nicotine, in conjunction with scientific studies looking at potential mental health benefits, and NONE, ZERO of these subjects reported withdrawal symptoms at the conclusion of the studies when the nic was discontinued. These studies lasted up to 9 months.

What is not generally known now is the effect of consuming nicotine, without tobacco, for many years. However, NRTs have been available for OTC for over 20 years now yet there are no reports of common withdrawal symptoms.

And vape forums are propagandized with this non nicotine addicting garbage. Without tobacco there is no nicotine. Spare me the tomato nicotine garbage as well. Spare me the pseudo no science studies as well.

 

[WharfRat1976]

This is not a matter of "my link is better than your link". There is NO credible evidence that nicotine, delivered outside of tobacco, is addictive. All links discussing the addictive nature of nicotine simply label nicotine as the sole evil causative agent, while discussing the affects of tobacco. And that is a FACT until someone finds such a credible link.

The FACT here is not if nicotine could be addictive, if vaped long term. The FACT is the lack of evidence that nicotine delivered by itself is addictive. Even the FDA acknowledged that here:

Federal Register | Modifications To Labeling of Nicotine Replacement Therapy Products for Over-the-Counter Human Use

You have to dig deep to find this...

"We also note that although any nicotine-containing product has the potential to be addicting, based on the available evidence, currently marketed OTC NRT products do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence. A 2010 review of historical reports made to the Agency's Adverse Event Reporting System and to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration's Drug Abuse Warning Network between 1984 and 2009 suggested that NRT products have a low potential for abuse. Several published studies have also found that the abuse liability and dependence potential of NRT products is low, especially compared to cigarettes (see West et al., 2000; Houtsmuller et al., 2002)."

The FDA concluded that there is little or no cause for concern related to nicotine addiction, when used outside of tobacco in NRTs, and therefore it changed the labeling requirements of NRTs. That is also a basis for allowing OTC sales.

The FDS is concluding that vaping needs to be regulated and going to change the deeming date to 2007.

Are FDA conclusions evidence of anything factual?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[WharfRat1976]

I wonder why the Chinese or whoever invented vaping did not use caffeine or any other substance instead of nicotine in the first eliquid. FACEPALM

 

[DC2]

My stance is mainly based on my thinking that "addiction" is more than just about external substance stimuli by itself.

I do not directly equate (relatively) short-term medicinal use for treatments or studies with prolonged recreational use of the active ingredient. Besides, the source provided by Vneil (FDA) has a low credibility rating in my books. I don't trust the FDAs interpretation of handpicked "studies" of BP products any more than I trust their favorite vaping "studies".

Even if I did have faith in the source; I don't believe "abuse liability and dependence potential of NRT products is low" counts as factual evidence of anything other than exactly what it says. To me, that would be judging the addictive potential of alcohol, based on a daily spoon-full of Sherry for digestive purposes.

What is interpreted for me as caps-lock-worthy "FACTS" [sic]; I see as too non-conclusive (for me) to base any firm opinion on. I know others see it differently and find it sufficient. Yet I exercise my liberty to wave my "Buyer Beware"-flag. Even if it catches me a little ridicule and some furious demands to participate in an all-out Source War. That's just the spice of life.

This - and my previous posts - I believe is all I have to say about the matter. Unless something new comes up and makes me question my stance, I'll leave it at that. I find no pleasure in arguing for sake of arguing. But I did feel a need to elaborate my views. And, I prefer doing so by means of argumentation rather than relentless link postings.

I liked your post.

Not because I agree with your conclusions...
But because you stated your thoughts so well...

 

[DC2]

If it became widely understood that nicotine, ingested by never smokers, is no more dependence creating than caffeine, and no more harmful in any substantial way, and far more beneficial in significant ways, it would totally change the debate.

Couldn't agree more.

It's possibly the most important thing we can do.
This truth NEEDS to get out.

 

[VNeil]

The FDS is concluding that vaping needs to be regulated and going to change the deeming date to 2007.

Are FDA conclusions evidence of anything factual?

You can't have it both ways.

The deeming is not an FDA conclusion. That is pure politics.

 

[rootlinux01]

What setup are you using to vape? If you are sub ohm then 18 is way to high. Go with 3 or 1 1/2 nic. You will still get a buzz. If you are using something like an ego, you can go a little higher. 18 is a lot of nic for a non smoker. It will probably end with you smoking analog cigs.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

 

[DC2]

I swear I will never understand this "buzz" from nicotine that people sometimes mention.
I never got one from cigarettes, and still don't get one now that I'm vaping.

But I have learned enough in my years on this forum to KNOW that we are all different.
So if some of you get some kind of buzz, I can only say I wish I got one.

 

[VNeil]

18 is a lot of nic for a non smoker. It will probably end with you smoking analog cigs.

Do you have a shred of evidence to back up that statement? Or are you simply repeating the "gateway effect" propaganda?

 

[VNeil]

Besides, the source provided by Vneil (FDA) has a low credibility rating in my books. I don't trust the FDAs interpretation of handpicked "studies" of BP products any more than I trust their favorite vaping "studies".

This is not a matter of "hand picking studies". There are no, none, zero studies showing that never smokers become addicted to nicotine delivered without tobacco. None.

Those that try to discredit those never smoker nic studies never have any basis for it. When anti-vape bad science is discredited here, there is always a reason. It is usually either misrepresenting the data in the conclusions and press releases, or serious breaches in methodology. I have never seen a case where the actual raw data results were seriously questioned.

If you want to discredit studies by shooting the messenger then you are saying that the facts do not matter. Which is quite fine, as long as you are up front with it. But discrediting studies "just because" is just another way to say the facts don't matter.

If those studies are seriously flawed or falsified, then where are the legions of never smoking vapers now hooked on that highly addictive nicotine? Another null result, only confirming that those studies are legit.