Ego boooster!!!

[JW50]

Chaos - Would like that detail. But maybe a boor to others. I'll go to the tech video and see if that is satisfying. But off top I don't understand why Riva can't handle load if Joye eGo can. Except for the PWM the two bats seem nearly identical. In fact, the "guts" are the same between the two ("guts" meaning the non-circuit board parts - and the Riva "guts" even has Joye label on it). From other videos (i.e here's Michael or Michael here), the circuit boards are said to have same components (but must be some difference in wiring of components otherwise both would be PWM or non-PWM). 3 amps is big load but if Joye eGo handles seems like Riva would too.

 

[JW50]

Chaos- Another "off the top". If eGo Variable boosts nothing then one should see that with use that the Variable will not attain 4.2 volts. That is, voltage is declining with use from the 4.2 non-PWM voltage toward cut off voltage (about 3.4, unloaded, ~3.0 or 3.1 loaded). This is why it might be interesting to hear/see some loaded voltages from the Variable. (Unloaded reads might to revealing as well. Does highest setting on Variable give same meter read after an hour or so of use as it gives just off charger? Is that read close to 4.2?)

 

[MasterofChaos]

Chaos- Another "off the top". If eGo Variable boosts nothing then one should see that with use that the Variable will not attain 4.2 volts. That is, voltage is declining with use from the 4.2 non-PWM voltage toward cut off voltage (about 3.4, unloaded, ~3.0 or 3.1 loaded). This is why it might be interesting to hear/see some loaded voltages from the Variable. (Unloaded reads might to revealing as well. Does highest setting on Variable give same meter read after an hour or so of use as it gives just off charger? Is that read close to 4.2?)

That is exactly right, and without a booster circuit that's precisely what would happen.

I would LOVE somebody to measure one of these things, if for nothing else other than to confirm my theory (since I haven't done any measurements myself, it is of course only a theory at this point. A strong one, but a theory nonetheless). Unfortunately noone who has one seems to want to at the moment.

 

[MasterofChaos]

Here's the explaination of why the Booster doesn't work on a Riva:

On any un-regulated battery (whether it's a Riva or a mod or whatever), as more current is drawn from the battery, the internal resistance of the battery causes the output voltage to drop. So, as the battery is loaded, it will go from 4.2V (or whatever it sits at unloaded when fully charged) to some lower voltage. As the voltage drops, the current going into the atty drops. Eventually, the voltage and current out of the battery drop to the point where the battery can handle the current, and the system reaches an equilibrium point. This is why, with an LR atty for instance, the loaded voltage on an unregulated battery will drop to something like 3.2 V, since the current being produced by the battery into that load is something the battery can handle.

In a system with a switching regulator, the regulator will try to maintain the output voltage NO MATTER WHAT. So, if the output of the regulator is set to, say 4.2 V, and the battery is outputting 4.2 V, as the current is drawn by the battery the output voltage of the battery will drop but the output of the regulator will stay the same. As the output of the battery drops, the switching regulator will actually draw MORE current from the battery to keep the output voltage constant. This will cause the voltage of the battery to drop further, which will cause the switcher to draw even more current, causing the voltage to drop, etc., until the battery bottoms out and stops working.

So really, you can look at it this way: with an unregulated output there is a kind of negative feedback that allows the system to reach an equilibrium. With a switcher in there, there is a kind of positive feedback that can make the system unstable.

This is why boosted systems need to use batteries that can handle the current without dropping the voltage too much. In the case of the eGo, the PWM limits the current by reducing the duty cycle, which has the same effect as using an IMR battery.

Hope that is clear.

 

[cozzicon]

Here's the explaination of why the Booster doesn't work on a Riva:

On any un-regulated battery (whether it's a Riva or a mod or whatever), as more current is drawn from the battery, the internal resistance of the battery causes the output voltage to drop. So, as the battery is loaded, it will go from 4.2V (or whatever it sits at unloaded when fully charged) to some lower voltage. As the voltage drops, the current going into the atty drops. Eventually, the voltage and current out of the battery drop to the point where the battery can handle the current, and the system reaches an equilibrium point. This is why, with an LR atty for instance, the loaded voltage on an unregulated battery will drop to something like 3.2 V, since the current being produced by the battery into that load is something the battery can handle.

In a system with a switching regulator, the regulator will try to maintain the output voltage NO MATTER WHAT. So, if the output of the regulator is set to, say 4.2 V, and the battery is outputting 4.2 V, as the current is drawn by the battery the output voltage of the battery will drop but the output of the regulator will stay the same. As the output of the battery drops, the switching regulator will actually draw MORE current from the battery to keep the output voltage constant. This will cause the voltage of the battery to drop further, which will cause the switcher to draw even more current, causing the voltage to drop, etc., until the battery bottoms out and stops working.

So really, you can look at it this way: with an unregulated output there is a kind of negative feedback that allows the system to reach an equilibrium. With a switcher in there, there is a kind of positive feedback that can make the system unstable.

This is why boosted systems need to use batteries that can handle the current without dropping the voltage too much. In the case of the eGo, the PWM limits the current by reducing the duty cycle, which has the same effect as using an IMR battery.

Hope that is clear.

It should be noted this also depends on *what* Riva battery you have. First revision Riva's are the exact same PCB and Joyetech branded battery as the Joyetech eGo products. The Riva SE however has no PWM circuit.

So it should work with some Riva batteries.

 

[MasterofChaos]

cozzicon,

I didn't know that (about the older ones being the same). That is useful information, thank you.

 

[mondotoker760]

Ive used my Ego Booster on a Ego PT but mostly I use it on my mods with high drain batteries or with a regular ultrafire red jacket 18650 and it works great.It doesnt drain your batteries down as much as you would think....I dont even notice a difference. Ive used it with all types of attys and cartos from LR to dual coil and never had any problems at all....But Rivas and any other clone Egos will not work. If you crank the Ego Booster up on a Riva it shuts the battery off and the riva just blinks abunch of times like its shorted out.

IMO 60 bucks for the Ego Booster is a bargain... It turns any of my 3.7 mods using a high drain battery into a VV mod, adjustable from 3.3 to 4.7 volts... Also I believe theres a six month warranty!! Try to get that with one of those vv ego kits from got vapes!

 

[JW50]

It should be noted this also depends on *what* Riva battery you have. First revision Riva's are the exact same PCB and Joyetech branded battery as the Joyetech eGo products. The Riva SE however has no PWM circuit.

So it should work with some Riva batteries.

I think the current non-PWM, Riva bat population is broader than just the Riva SE. My experience has been that all Riva, eGo style bats (not just the SEs) are non-PWM. (I presume non-PWM if unloaded voltage just off charger is ~4.2 volts) All of my purchases have occurred since January, 2011

 

[JW50]

Here's the explaination of why the Booster doesn't work on a Riva:
...
Hope that is clear.

Not clear yet but I will re-read more times to see if that helps. Perhaps I have initially thinking mind block. Initially thinking when "handle the current" stated meant to me some component in circuit would fail at high current and since components of both Riva and Joye eGo were same it didn't seem logical that one would fail while other would not. Perhaps I should think of the PWM of the eGo as a pulsing circuit breaker that "breaks" every time current gets close to failing point. But if latter is correct thinking, how does output current of Booster ever get to 3 amps. Will read explanation again.

 

[JW50]

Chaos - Perhaps showing my lack of knowledge in switching regulation area, it still seems to me that Riva batts should work with the eGo boost if Joye eGo batts work. From what I have been able to find out about SMPS (switching mode power supply) it does not appear that boosting requires a PWM source. Cozzicon has disassembled both Joye eGos and Rive 510's and has found the battery inside the shells to be both 13450, 2.41Wh's. And both with Joye labels on them. I have disassembled a more current what is said to be a EM Riva 510 (rated at 750 mah) and have found what appears to be the same thing Cozzicon found (13450, 2.41 Wh) inside as the Riva he disassembled except the one I did I did not find "Joye" on it. That is, the lithium and whatever else that makes up the battery cell of both EM Riva and Joye seem to be identical. Internal resistance, it would seem, would be similar or identical between the two. SMPS boosting does not require a PWM source. What am I missing or confused about?

 

[GIMike]

This is just my understanding of it, I'm not an electrician by any means. With the Riva, as you use it and it loses it's charge, the voltage drops. I.E. Fresh charge, 3.7v, 1 hour use, 3.3v, 2 hours, 2.8v, something like that. With the eGo, as you use it, and it loses charge, the PWM keeps the voltage normalized at 3.3 or whatever it runs at. You can't boost something that keeps changing as you use it. That's my understanding of why it doesn't work.

 

[JW50]

This is just my understanding of it, I'm not an electrician by any means. With the Riva, as you use it and it loses it's charge, the voltage drops. I.E. Fresh charge, 3.7v, 1 hour use, 3.3v, 2 hours, 2.8v, something like that. With the eGo, as you use it, and it loses charge, the PWM keeps the voltage normalized at 3.3 or whatever it runs at. You can't boost something that keeps changing as you use it. That's my understanding of why it doesn't work.

Thanks. However, and not an expert by any stretch, from what I read about SMPS and "boost", no requirement that source voltage not change. In fact, Joye eGo is changing all the time with PWM.

 

[JW50]

Certainly don't know with any certainty but after considerable research into "switching regulation" and "PWM", I'm tending to think the eGo booster may be a bit of snake oil sales in process. Don't doubt for a minute the GrimmGreen review genuineness. I haven't tried the device and with "out of stock" prevailing for a lengthy period now, it is looking as if it may be awhile before I do try it. Nonetheless, after having watched the youtube video found here: Artisan's Workshop - Ego Booster.m4v - YouTube
and seeing what seemed to me as hype and major inconsistencies (i.e. 4.7 volts, unloaded, but with booster attached and at max setting as measured with volt meter versus an oscilloscope reading with booster attached and at max setting, with load, of 0 volts for a period to 4.7 volts for a period - meaning loaded voltage was not 4.7 rms.), I'm thinking the snake oil here is "volts" and that "volts" do not remedy the illness. Instead, the remedy is watts and no attention is being given to the watts being delivered by eGo boost. And, what seems to be case is the watts being delivered is no better, or not much better, than that of a Riva 510 batt. Then question becomes, is maybe a bit better than Riva 510 worth 60 bucks plus 7 or 8 bucks shipping? Also, tending to think "internal resistance" of batts does not factor in here as internal resistance is likely same for Riva 510 as for Joye eGo. Perhaps some with greater knowledge can set me straight.

 

[MasterofChaos]

JW50,

There's no snake oil here, everything that is claimed is true. If you would read the FAQ and the various informational posts, its not just the voltage output that is increased by the eGo Booster, its the power. In fact the output power is increased by 50% at the maximum setting compared to a standard eGo Battery. Check out this link, it explains how the power increases:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/happyvaper/205247-ego-booster-battery-life.html

Also, if you would read the experiences of everyone who uses the device, they all (to a person) say how it increases the performance of their eGo Batteries considerably.

I hope you will get your hands on a device and make a comment THEN, since when you use it I'm sure you will change your mind.

 

[vocr]

I cannot address your technical questions JW50, but I wrote an anecdotal review: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-mods/214316-ego-booster-detailed-review.html. I certainly don't feel its "snake oil" and while I have no way of measuring watts output during load, I can tell the difference between not using the EB and using it. As well, I can tell the difference when turning the dial across multiple different heating elements.

 

[JW50]

Chaos - I don't think I dispute that all that have tried it (that have said anything that I am aware of) say that it "works". And I did read the link given. Not sure I understand where the 50% came from, but let me ignore that for the moment. The eGo has a li-ion cell inside its shell that is rated as 2.41 Watt-hours. It seems to me that no matter what the eGo booster does it will get no more (and likely less) energy from that cell than 2.41 Watt-hours. So if watts increase by 50%, hours must decrease by 50%. So to say that power is increasing by 50% and time is decreasing by only 22% seems like a little snake oil to me. Now it does occur to me that given the limitations of how juice might be distributed on the wires of the coils, how it flows to the coil, how much power is used to warm air instead of vaporizing juice, etc. that a boost in wattage of 22% might give the same effect as if the wattage had been increased by 50%. But if the latter is true, an increase wattage by 39% might indeed have the same effect as an increase of 50%. I mention the 39% because that is the increased wattage that a Riva batt gives relative to an eGo when the Riva is fresh off the charger. That 39% declines as the use cycle of the Riva continues, being around a 10% boost (relative to the eGo) for significant part of the use life. But that 10%, again, might have "the effect" as if boosted 50%. And it still comes back, is the "enhanced" performance of the eGo booster worth the price that it costs?

 

[JW50]

I cannot address your technical questions JW50, but I wrote an anecdotal review: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-mods/214316-ego-booster-detailed-review.html. I certainly don't feel its "snake oil" and while I have no way of measuring watts output during load, I can tell the difference between not using the EB and using it. As well, I can tell the difference when turning the dial across multiple different heating elements.

Good review. Boy you sure got whacked on delivery and customs. "Snake oil" comment is probably too harsh. Real meaning was something less than promoted - although perhaps still with some medicinal value.

 

[vocr]

Thanks JW50, I got whacked for sure . Customs here is a real PIA.

You have some technical questions, the basis of which, if I understand, you feel that the voltage the EB outputs (which I can, and have, confirmed with my multimeter) will not equal the the same wattage output of, say, another VV mod? I am not sure why you think this. Logically, unless there is some extra resistance the EB adds to the equation, ohms law applies here as everywhere else in the physical world.

The EB only provides the voltage part of that equation. The rest is not effected by the EB, unless you have tested or seen some aspect that proves otherwise? You're point about the battery is not directly relevant (though it certainly has some relevance, I am sure). Increased voltage is not directly proportional to battery drain, there are many factors that contribute to battery drain in any given power system.

 

[JW50]

vocr - Re-read your review. All positive for eGo Booster (Minor exception relating to LR attys). GrimmGreen review here quite positive for eGo Booster. Your time use numbers suggest that the calculations shown here http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/happyvaper/205247-ego-booster-battery-life.html are conservative. Seems like for those that can afford it (and can find it in stock), it is worth a try. I think I will try it and see for myself if it seems worth the price. But still don't quite understand why it will not work with Riva type batts or, in your case, Dealextreme ego batts.

 

[GIMike]

Think of it this way. You and I are running a foot race. You're in shape, I'm not. Every so often, we stop for a vitamin enhanced drink that gives us a boost and makes us run faster. Since you're in shape, you run the same speed the whole time, so when you get your "boost", you can run faster for longer. Me on the other hand, I might run faster for a second, but it would wear me out MUCH sooner, and I would slow down much faster, and after a few stops, the boost probably wouldn't help me any. Whereas you, you're stronger and more determind, and run as hard as you can until you just drop dead. Whereas I run myself slowly into the ground. That's the only way I can think of to say that might make any sense.