Encouraging interview with Lorillard CEO on future of e-cigarettes

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dannoman

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Dj Xy

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I think this is good for the vaping community as a whole, I'm just surprised it took this long for big tobacco to join in, but of course there will be lots of naysayers who think its bad, but only time will tell how it goes.
My only fear is that the FDA may jump in and ban flavors, much like they did with flavored analog cigs (still miss my Djarums, haven't found an ejuice that even comes close)
 

Briar

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...My only fear is that the FDA may jump in and ban flavors, much like they did with flavored analog cigs (still miss my Djarums, haven't found an ejuice that even comes close)

I think they likely will do just that.

But I also don't think it's a problem. The vendors can sell pre-mixed flavor concentrates - just add it to your flavorless "allowed" nic liquid and you are all set. I don't think they can ban that. It's not like flavored herb-ish cigs that an ordinary person is not likely to make. Adding flavoring to nic liquid is simple. It's just that flavor artists will have to charge a lot more - but, then, their product will last a lot longer, too. Don't see why that wouldn't work.

And, vaping flavorless is not a bad experience, actually, if one doesn't want to bother with adding flavor. Some people like it.
 

sailorman

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I think they likely will do just that.

But I also don't think it's a problem. The vendors can sell pre-mixed flavor concentrates - just add it to your flavorless "allowed" nic liquid and you are all set. I don't think they can ban that. It's not like flavored herb-ish cigs that an ordinary person is not likely to make. Adding flavoring to nic liquid is simple. It's just that flavor artists will have to charge a lot more - but, then, their product will last a lot longer, too. Don't see why that wouldn't work.

And, vaping flavorless is not a bad experience, actually, if one doesn't want to bother with adding flavor. Some people like it.
It would work. I've been saying that for months now. They can't ban pre-mixed flavors. They can't ban PG or VG. It's highly unlikely they'll ban nicotine base even. Even if they banned nicotine base, it's easy enough to get through unconventional channels. Right now, if you had to, you can get 99.8% pure nicotine from China. If they talk about banning nicotine base, I'm getting some. A fume hood, protective gear and some glassware is easy enough to make or acquire. It could be diluted to 100mg quickly and you'd probably never have to open the pure stuff again for years. I figured for about $200, I can get 1kg shipped from China and that would last approx 455 years.
 

dannoman

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The CEO of Lorillard came from a smokeless tobacco company, he is enthusiastic bout e-cigs...

Sounds promising in that vaping may have a companion in big tobacco. I'm all for regulation, (as many other vapers have also said), and if Lorillard is actually going to enter the arena and not disband Blu, then this can only be a good thing.

I think this is good for the vaping community as a whole, I'm just surprised it took this long for big tobacco to join in, but of course there will be lots of naysayers who think its bad, but only time will tell how it goes.
My only fear is that the FDA may jump in and ban flavors, much like they did with flavored analog cigs (still miss my Djarums, haven't found an ejuice that even comes close)
 

sailorman

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My concern is that Lorillard will be all too willing to throw vendors and juice makers under the bus. They won't do anything proactive or reactive to prevent regulations that give them a competitive advantage. That means they won't fight regulations that only huge, well capitalized companies have a chance of complying with. In fact, they may well advocate them. As long as it won't hurt Lorillard, they won't care if it devastates everyone else.

In short, anything they do that's good for vaping in general, will be merely an unintended side-effect of them doing what's good for Lorillard. When the good of the industry as a whole interferes with what's good for, or gives a competitive advantage to, Lorillard, you can expect them to sacrifice the industry for Lorillard.

This industry is too fragmented to say what's good for vapers is good for Lorillard. Lorillard won't think twice before going along with restrictions on nic base, flavors, mods or anything that isn't in their business plan.
 

dannoman

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Its true, but any corporation beholden to shareholders and its bottom line would be expected to do that, and we all know that this was inevitable. BUT...watching the interview you can see the guy is an enthusist so I'd rather him be at the forefront than someone who isn't.

My concern is that Lorillard will be all too willing to throw vendors and juice makers under the bus. They won't do anything proactive or reactive to prevent regulations that give them a competitive advantage. That means they won't fight regulations that only huge, well capitalized companies have a chance of complying with. In fact, they may well advocate them. As long as it won't hurt Lorillard, they won't care if it devastates everyone else.

In short, anything they do that's good for vaping in general, will be merely an unintended side-effect of them doing what's good for Lorillard. When the good of the industry as a whole interferes with what's good for, or gives a competitive advantage to, Lorillard, you can expect them to sacrifice the industry for Lorillard.

This industry is too fragmented to say what's good for vapers is good for Lorillard. Lorillard won't think twice before going along with restrictions on nic base, flavors, mods or anything that isn't in their business plan.
 

sailorman

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The CEO of Lorillard came from a smokeless tobacco company, he is enthusiastic bout e-cigs...

He's enthusiastic about e-cigs, sold in drugstores, that look like cigarettes, that use the juice Lorillard wants to sell and the cartridges included in Blu. He's not enthusiastic about vaping. He's enthusiastic about Blus. Every mod sold, every DIYer, every tank, every bottle of juice and every clearomizer sold is one less pack of Blu that get sold.

If legislation was introduced to mandate only sealed cartridges and e-cigs that look like cigarettes could be sold, and only by licensed tobacco retailers, do you really believe he'd be against it? Do you think Lorillard, with their vast distribution channels, would oppose a law against internet sales of e-cigs?
 

sailorman

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Its true, but any corporation beholden to shareholders and its bottom line would be expected to do that, and we all know that this was inevitable. BUT...watching the interview you can see the guy is an enthusist so I'd rather him be at the forefront than someone who isn't.

Right. So he's not an ally. He's more likely to be a bad influence, lobbying for restrictions that wipe out competition in favor of Blu. He's the wolf in sheep's clothing. He's the saboteur who can be counted on to lobby for such restrictions that the only player left standing is Lorillard. And that, BTW, includes Gotvapes and every other internet retailer. Lorillard would love nothing better than for e-cigs to be sold only where other tobacco products are sold.
 

CoyoteRed

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My concern is that Lorillard will be all too willing to throw vendors and juice makers under the bus. They won't do anything proactive or reactive to prevent regulations that give them a competitive advantage. That means they won't fight regulations that only huge, well capitalized companies have a chance of complying with. In fact, they may well advocate them. As long as it won't hurt Lorillard, they won't care if it devastates everyone else.

In short, anything they do that's good for vaping in general, will be merely an unintended side-effect of them doing what's good for Lorillard. When the good of the industry as a whole interferes with what's good for, or gives a competitive advantage to, Lorillard, you can expect them to sacrifice the industry for Lorillard.


This industry is too fragmented to say what's good for vapers is good for Lorillard. Lorillard won't think twice before going along with restrictions on nic base, flavors, mods or anything that isn't in their business plan.


Also since there stroking the FDA,you can bet the taxes are right behind it. When cigarette prices jumped up a lot of people started to roll their own. We got away with that for a while .Then they taxed loose tobacco to almost twice the cost even triple.Now the only work around is to buy Pipe tobacco.although some is just a different cut of tobacco. In the end it will be harder to get the DIY stuff you need to do your own. Or possibly banned at customs etc.
 

sailorman

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Is anyone familiar with the epic battle that was waged to make it legal for beer to be sold in other container sized except 12 and 16oz? A million reasons, all focused around children and health and alcoholism were advanced to justify these regulations. As it turned out, it was all a legislative lobbying effort by Anheuser-Busch. They didn't want other companies to share "their" shelf space. They didn't want to create larger or smaller sizes of their product. They weren't advocates for the brewing industry or beer. They actively tried to destroy other companies to give themselves an advantage.

That is the typical corporate behavior I expect from Lorillard in respect to any proposed restrictions on e-cigs. I expect them to be just as active in advocating restrictions as they would ever be in forestalling or preventing them. I'd be willing to bet that they have lawyers working on legislative proposals at this very minute. And those proposals will be geared toward the bottom line of Blu, not toward preserving the rights or benefit of vapers or the industry as a whole.

When your right to vape, or to run a vaping oriented business, conflicts with the bottom line of Blu, as they often will, an influential giant will come down on the side of Blu.
 

sailorman

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Also since there stroking the FDA,you can bet the taxes are right behind it. When cigarette prices jumped up a lot of people started to roll their own. We got away with that for a while .Then they taxed loose tobacco to almost twice the cost even triple.Now the only work around is to buy Pipe tobacco.although some is just a different cut of tobacco. In the end it will be harder to get the DIY stuff you need to do your own. Or possibly banned at customs etc.

I remember that because I was RYO at the time. That's what started my interest in e-cigs. A lb of tobacco went from $14 to $49. That was a direct result of the tobacco companies lobbying for parity between the price of a pack of pre-rolled and a pack of RYO. Before BT got involved, the proposed tax increase was a small fraction of the $25 or so that it ended up being.

That's the kind of legislative influence I expect Lorillard to exercise with respect to e-cigs.
 

sailorman

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Here's another thing to consider.
The only way it can be as profitable for Lorillard to sell Blu as it is to sell Newports is if a consumer stays with Blu nearly as long as he would stay with Newport. As long as other, better e-cigs exist, that's not going to happen.

It would be in Lorillard's best interest to eliminate as many alternatives to Blu as is possible. If they can't do that, it would be to their best interest to have e-cigs treated just like cigarettes with regard to no-smoking bans, sales restrictions, mailing restrictions, taxes etc. They would much prefer that people buy Newports for 30 years than that they buy Blu once or twice before they get an eGo.
 

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I really believe Blue/Lorillord is going after the Noobs and also the masses, they want the big numbers,,, there will always be a secondary market of specialty Items out there for those of us who use Mods and other gear, this isnt there main concern in my opinion, they can sell all there sealed cartos they want and stick type Batts they want. I think this is a help for the industry in a whole, as long as they don't work insider type deals with the FDA we will be OK but everyone has to keep there eyes open with this,, the CEO said in his interview he already has meeting set up with the FDA I believe, love to be a bug on the wall in that room.
 

Briar

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I don't think it's that simple. You guys are talking as if Lorillard is going to run a monopoly, or establish an effective monopoly through regulations. That battle has been fought, caught up in legislations for years, and lost, by other giant corporations.

American legislature doesn't like obvious monopolies. On either side of the aisle. And american legislature loves small business - also on both sides of the isle. Not because they are well-intentioned (who knows), but because it is always politically expedient. It's popular to bash large corporations.

You are also forgetting that Lorillard has competition from Chinese companies that are very well financed.

The game may have become different, and certainly there is a danger to small companies - but at the same time there is less danger of outright vaping bans.

It's a mixed bag.

Food industry is regulated. Heavily. That doesn't mean that there is no place for small farmers or restaurants. It's too early to jump to conclusions.

What I think is an absolute necessity however - and immediately - is for the current actors in the industry to form a professional association of some kind.
 

sailorman

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I don't think it's that simple. You guys are talking as if Lorillard is going to run a monopoly, or establish an effective monopoly through regulations. That battle has been fought, caught up in legislations for years, and lost, by other giant corporations.
It's not a matter of a monopoly. It's a matter of an oligopoly. A few big players who dominate a market segment. It happens in all kinds of industries, health insurance and oil, to name just two. A corporation lobbies for legislation that favors itself at the expense of as many other competitors as it can.

American legislature doesn't like obvious monopolies. On either side of the aisle. And american legislature loves small business - also on both sides of the isle. Not because they are well-intentioned (who knows), but because it is always politically expedient. It's popular to bash large corporations.
Politicians pay lip service to small business. Small business isn't who pours millions into Crossroads GPS Super Pac. Small business isn't who supports the USCoC or ALEC.. The Koch brothers aren't small business. No, they like HUGE business. They don't like the appearance of obvious monopolies, but they flat refuse to invoke the anti-trust laws. They much prefer to have a few big players operating under a hundred different names so the illusion of a free market is maintained but they only have to beg for campaign bribes from a limited number of benefactors. When were the anti-trust laws last enforced? What is the Big 8 in accounting now, the Big 3? Five health ins. companies write 80% of all the insurance in the country under hundreds of different names. How many airlines dominate the majority of that market? The radio market is dominated by 3 giant media conglomerates where hundreds of independent stations existed just 20 years ago. A half dozen media conglomerates control 80% of every newspaper, book, movie, TV show and magazine in the country. I could go on and on in every industrial segment from agriculture to retailing. The most common phrase in the English language is "A subsidiary of". It's not corporation bashing. They've had full reign over the last 30 years and they've shown their true nature.

You are also forgetting that Lorillard has competition from Chinese companies that are very well financed.
I'm not talking about Lorillard dominating the market. I'm talking about them using their influence to eliminate the e-cigs as a viable business for anyone but the most well capitalized corporations. I'm quite sure they'd be perfectly satisfied to be one of a half-dozen players, including Chinese ones, if necessary. The Chinese companies don't have the legislative or regulatory clout that an American company does.

The game may have become different, and certainly there is a danger to small companies - but at the same time there is less danger of outright vaping bans.
There was no danger of outright bans in the first place, not since the latest court rulings. You cannot ban a tobacco product and that's been settled law or a decade. Where was Lorillard's CEO's enthusiasm for e-cigs when SA and Joye were battling the FDA to keep e-cigs from being classified as drugs? Where was BT then I'll tell you where they were. They were in the gallery with BP, cheering on the FDA. Now that the dust has settled and they can't squash them permanently, they want a cut of the action. And there is a lot of danger to small companies. Lorillard will be an ally to any efforts to consolidate this otherwise diverse and fragmented industry. They may be targeting new vapers with the Blu, but they cannot survive for long unless they get repeat business. Their best shot at repeat business is to make it expensive and inconvenient, if not impossible, for a Blu vaper to upgrade. They don't want a Blu vaper to try an eGo, ever. If there's anything they can do to prevent it, they'll sure as hell do it. And that includes proposing and supporting regulations.

It's a mixed bag.
There's no upside. Lorillard has nothing to contribute to this industry. That ship sailed when e-cigs were declared tobacco products. There can be no ban, so they can't help prevent one. They don't benefit from any legislation that favors e-cigs over cigarettes regarding smoking bans. They can only benefit from strict control of cartridges and juice. Lorillard has nothing to offer the future of e-cigs. They benefit from the strictest regulation possible, just like the liquor industry and the pharmaceutical industry benefits from strict regulation.

Food industry is regulated. Heavily. That doesn't mean that there is no place for small farmers or restaurants. It's too early to jump to conclusions.
No,food is not regulated heavily. Production facilities are regulated. Food serving facilities are regulated. And, in fact, there is little room for small farmers and small independent restaurants, both of which have been in decline for decades. But that's a different situation not caused by regulations. Those regulations pertain to sanitation and health, predominately. Food is not considered a regulated industry, like nuclear or energy or transportation or finance or tobacco. This isn't even a legitimate comparison. No corporation lobbies for regulations against the sale and use of certain competing food. Egg producers have nothing to gain by attempting to impose onerous restrictions on milk producers.

What I think is an absolute necessity however - and immediately - is for the current actors in the industry to form a professional association of some kind.
And like other regulated industries, the big dogs will dominate and connive and conspire to cut out those below them in the pecking order, using their influence on regulatory legislation.
 
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