E-cigarette entrepreneur takes on new industry’s bad rap

[AgentAnia]

You know, a group of us vapers should band together and form a consulting company. Hire ourselves out to the Powers That Be to explain vaping to them in all its manifestations. Dog and pony shows. A spiffy power point presentation on "What Vapers Really Want," "How E-Cigarettes Can Revolutionize Public Health," "What REAL Science Is Telling Us About E-Cigarettes," (the latter preceded by a quick "What Is Real Science?") and so on. (As I understand it, there's big money in government contracts...)

/fantasy. Back to the real world...

 

[DC2]

No, they are just shortsighted, stupid and greedy. (Which kind of applies to the tobacco companies getting into e-cigarettes, too, lol! But the tobacco companies can be forgiven for some ignorance. We've talked to some of them - they are truly clueless in many aspects.) What else could explain believing limiting e-cigarettes to tobacco/menthol flavors is a good idea (because adult smokers prefer tobacco flavor) other than ignorance?

If I was a HUGE corporation getting into a new product line, I would use all means at my disposal to understand that product line.
And I mean up and down, inside and out, backwards and forwards.

I seriously can't wrap my brain around the idea that they are that incredibly ignorant and sloppy.

 

[Rickajho]

My gut instinct tells me that the tobacco industry doesn't really care about bottled liquids and that is part of the problem. Because they are only knowledgeable of cig-a-likes, they haven't seen the income potential of bottled liquids and advanced models, so have no reason to fight for them. Ergo, they fight for what they've invested in and what they know - selling cig-a-like products in retail outlets. If the ANTZ are fussing about flavors and online sales, the tobacco companies ignorantly agree to it because it isn't effecting their current investment.

My gut instinct tells me BT knows a hell of a lot more about e-cigs than you believe. I wouldn't be surprised if they have bought a "one of everything" they can locate and are putting huge dollars into research - both technical and legal - in order to figure out how to embrace it, how to buy it out, and/or how to kill it. It's what any large corporation does if there is something new on the horizon that threatens their existing products. Have we learned nothing from Mr. Bill and Micro$oft?

One of the reason we put so many questions about cig-a-likes/cartos and moving to advanced models/tanks on the 2013 CASAA survey was to determine the number of people moving to advanced models. I hope to show the larger companies how foolish it is to kill the advanced market - a future market they could also get into. Do they really want to allow regulations that will limit them to making DVDs when there is a huge potential market for BluRay?

Honestly? I think that's exactly what they would prefer. For BT selling e-cigs is still an either-or mass market option. If you don't like the one size fits all e-cig you will continue with the one size fits all cigarette. It doesn't matter to a corporate model having had to deal with years of regulation that severely limited their capacity to bring a new model of a cigarette to market. Their sales and marketing models dictate more likely how many units of a Ronco Pocket Fisherman can they sell in Wally World, not how many linear feet of silk thread they can sell to someone interested in fly tying in a specialty store.

Right now the independent minded e-cig consumer is driving the creative aspect of the market place. Thus I have to take exception to the "DVD > Blu Ray" analogy. Blu Ray wasn't exactly a consumer need or demand driven product. As it was, when it came into the market there weren't a lot of TV displays that could take advantage of it. It looked cool in the store, but people weren't jumping all over the electronics department to buy a then expensive Blu Ray player - and the new TV needed to go with. Years later, it still hasn't been the DVD killer manufacturers were hoping for. A manufacturer thought it was a great idea. The Consumer looked and said "Thanks, but not so much..." A great idea is only a great idea if someone wants to buy it. Be it Blu Ray or advanced PV.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Where is that stated (as I've never seen or heard that from AEMSA, and I've seen/heard presentations by Linc and Lou to the FDA, and I've read everything on AEMSA's website)?

According to
http://www.aemsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/AEMSA-Standards_Version-1-7-1.pdf


There's a huge difference between self regulation and FDA regulation.

Hi, Bill,

If your intent is to offer argument concerning precision of language, I'll yield the floor and attempt to avoid further comment regarding this topic in this thread.

However, if you are open to what the record indicates outside of the quotes you have linked to, read on...

Taken from AEMSA's webpage, "AEMSA Launch," is the following, "<AEMSA>...contribute to and facilitate Governmental legislative process to create responsible, realistic and sustainable regulations for commercial manufacturing of e-liquids."

It seems to me that participating in efforts to 'facilitate the legislative process to create regulations,' crosses the line for internal, voluntary status to promoting requirements that would likely affect producers outside of their umbrella. That's a bit beyond "self-regulation."

I suspect most reading here can see the simple truth and hypocrisy in AEMSA's stance.

 

[kristin]

We could really use some more info from the cig-a-like users for the survey - I wish blu, SmokeStik, Logic, etc would send their customers to do it!

According to the CASAA survey so far, nearly 30% of respondents stated that they tried e-cigarettes but stopped using them for a while.

For the question "If you stopped using e-cigarettes for a while after first trying them, but eventually started again, why did you start again?" 80% responded "I learned about higher-quality products" and 53% stated "I found flavors I like better." Of those who did NOT go back to using an e-cigarette 74% stated "I was using a low-quality product and did not realize there were better options," 34% stated "It was not as satisfying as smoking," 32% stated "I still had the urge to smoke" and 23% stated "I did not like the flavors."

For the question "If you used both cigarettes and e-cigarettes for a month or more, but then switched entirely to e-cigarette, was there a particular event or discovery that allowed you to quit smoking entirely?" 53% stated "I found flavors that I liked better," and 44% stated "I switched to e-cigarettes that deliver more vapor or nicotine."

Of the respondents, only 13% currently use disposable or a rechargeable cigarette-sized kit with disposable cartridges, yet 70% of them STARTED with a disposable or rechargeable cigarette-sized kit with disposable cartridges. The reasons given for switching to something else, 76% stated "battery life too short," 74% stated "did not deliver enough vaper" and 49% stated "wanted a wider variety of flavors."

Some could argue that the survey is mostly of "more advanced users," however, there is no arguing that the vast majority of those advanced users started with a blu or something like it and found it unsatisfying. Without the more advanced models and flavors, what would they be doing today?

Regarding flavors specifically, 84% state they use flavors other than tobacco/menthol, 20% stated they prefer using tobacco/menthol flavors, 90% stated "having flavors I like makes it easier to like vaping and not want to smoke" and 51% stated "I am afraid I would start smoking again if I could not get my preferred flavors." 54% stated "I prefer food/spice/beverage flavors, and if these were banned I would seek black-market sources or do my own flavoring" and only 14% stated "I prefer food/spice/beverage flavors, but if these were not available, I would use tobacco or menthol flavor."

Those are some key facts there, my friends!

 

[Orb Skewer]

Well blow me

 

[ennagizer]

According to the CASAA survey so far, .......

Thank you kristin. I was interested in seeing the survey results.

Are the results published anywhere? I didn't see them on the casaa website. Or, is the survey still active and results not available yet?

 

[kristin]

The survey is still active. We'd like to get 10,000 or more completed responses before we close it. So, the numbers are still changing.

 

[AgentAnia]

The survey is still active. We'd like to get 10,000 or more completed responses before we close it. So, the numbers are still changing.

Any reason why those of us with local B&Ms couldn't print up a notice and ask the vendors to post it in their stores, asking customers to take the survey? Would CASAA have a problem with this?

 

[kristin]

Any reason why those of us with local B&Ms couldn't print up a notice and ask the vendors to post it in their stores, asking customers to take the survey? Would CASAA have a problem with this?

No problem with that at all!

 

[2coils]

I don't care who is taking the survey! The results are telling! Advanced products need to be available, Flavors need to be of a wide variety! Thanks for posting Kristin!

 

[Orb Skewer]

We could really use some more info from the cig-a-like users for the survey - I wish blu, SmokeStik, Logic, etc would send their customers to do it!

According to the CASAA survey so far, nearly 30% of respondents stated that they tried e-cigarettes but stopped using them for a while.

For the question "If you stopped using e-cigarettes for a while after first trying them, but eventually started again, why did you start again?" 80% responded "I learned about higher-quality products" and 53% stated "I found flavors I like better." Of those who did NOT go back to using an e-cigarette 74% stated "I was using a low-quality product and did not realize there were better options," 34% stated "It was not as satisfying as smoking," 32% stated "I still had the urge to smoke" and 23% stated "I did not like the flavors."

For the question "If you used both cigarettes and e-cigarettes for a month or more, but then switched entirely to e-cigarette, was there a particular event or discovery that allowed you to quit smoking entirely?" 53% stated "I found flavors that I liked better," and 44% stated "I switched to e-cigarettes that deliver more vapor or nicotine."

Of the respondents, only 13% currently use disposable or a rechargeable cigarette-sized kit with disposable cartridges, yet 70% of them STARTED with a disposable or rechargeable cigarette-sized kit with disposable cartridges. The reasons given for switching to something else, 76% stated "battery life too short," 74% stated "did not deliver enough vaper" and 49% stated "wanted a wider variety of flavors."

Some could argue that the survey is mostly of "more advanced users," however, there is no arguing that the vast majority of those advanced users started with a blu or something like it and found it unsatisfying. Without the more advanced models and flavors, what would they be doing today?

Regarding flavors specifically, 84% state they use flavors other than tobacco/menthol, 20% stated they prefer using tobacco/menthol flavors, 90% stated "having flavors I like makes it easier to like vaping and not want to smoke" and 51% stated "I am afraid I would start smoking again if I could not get my preferred flavors." 54% stated "I prefer food/spice/beverage flavors, and if these were banned I would seek black-market sources or do my own flavoring" and only 14% stated "I prefer food/spice/beverage flavors, but if these were not available, I would use tobacco or menthol flavor."

Those are some key facts there, my friends!

What was the participation figure Kristin at the time of the number crunching above ?

 

[Kent C]

Hi, Bill,

If you intent is to offer argument concerning precision of language, I'll yield the floor and attempt to avoid further comment regarding this topic in this thread.

However, if you are open to what the record indicates outside of the quotes you have linked to, read on...

Taken from AEMSA's webpage, "AEMSA Launch," is the following, "<AEMSA>...contribute to and facilitate Governmental legislative process to create responsible, realistic and sustainable regulations for commercial manufacturing of e-liquids."

It seems to me that participating in efforts to 'facilitate the legislative process to create regulations,' crosses the line for internal, voluntary status to promoting requirements that would likely affect producers outside of their umbrella. That's a bit beyond "self-regulation."

I suspect most reading here can see the simple truth and hypocrisy in AEMSA's stance.

This is closer to the history of the creation of 3 and 4 letter government agencies than industries creating them for their own 'greedy' purposes. 'Protection agencies' are usually the result of activists 'consumer advocate groups', who support politicians that make the laws to establish those agencies. Their purpose is a socialist one - to stop free trade, but under the guise of a more palatable one - 'safety' or 'caring' for the little guy consumer against the bad Big (fill in any industry here).

Carol Browner, who gave us 'second hand smoke', belonged to 'Citizen Action' (a Nader group), first, way before she became head of the EPA.

Ralph Nader virtually created the Department of Transportation and its National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, and one of his closest friends, Joan Claybrook ran the NHTSA for a while, giving us airbags and CAFE standards that has driven up the price we pay for automobiles.

Harvey Washington Wiley the first FDA commissioner was the president of The Gesellschaft Deutscher Chemiker (GDCh) is a learned society and professional association founded in 1949 to represent the interests of German chemists in local, national and international contexts. GDCh "unites those people associated with the chemical and molecular sciences and supports them in their responsible and sustainable endeavors for the good of the public and of our environment." (wiki)

... which reads a lot like the 'aims' of the AEMSA listed earlier.

There's a lot more examples of the start of these regulatory agencies and the early 'citizen's groups' that helped create them.

Andries Verleur's - "Regulation can lead to consolidation and it is going to make the space a little bit smaller which can benefit us." .. could be just a statement of fact, or an acknowledgement of the reality, rather than any other intention to capitalize or to take advantage. No business or consumer could take advantage, were there no agency that could use the force of government to intervene into an individual's free choice or free exchange.

Smart businessmen looking out for their own self interest and the interest of their companies will sometimes cave to the reality of regulations. Really smart businessmen will work toward eliminating such agencies and the politics that bring them about.

 

[rothenbj]

My gut instinct tells me that the tobacco industry doesn't really care about bottled liquids and that is part of the problem........ Do they really want to allow regulations that will limit them to making DVDs when there is a huge potential market for BluRay?

Kristin, you are the queen of analogies.

Unfortunately, as far as nicquid is concerned, I don't believe anyone can "corner the market" the way cigarette brands did as long as flavoring is part of the mix. How many people are using the same flavor over time? Months perhaps, but usually they'll find something else that tickles their taste buds.

I've gone a full circle on flavors, so much so that I currently have four new ones I picked up in BnMs that blend so well that I just wait for tank to get fairly low and load up one of the others. This is not a model that BT is comfortable with. There is so much money to be made if they don't screw it up trying to "help" the FDA regulate these things to their model if they just study the market's history. They no doubt have the capability of offering advanced technologies and amazing liquids at a cost that no mom and pop shop can approach without restricting innovation. Then they have the logistics to insure success.

 

[WorksForMe]

There's a lot more examples of the start of these regulatory agencies and the early 'citizen's groups' that helped create them.

IMHO The reality is that there’s going to be regulation on e-liquids, or the FDA will ban it completely. If AEMSA were to become a quasi-governmental board that sets the standards, it could work to our advantage in the long run. AEMSA definitely knows far more about e-liquid and its use than the FDA.

J.R.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

IMHO The reality is that there’s going to be regulation on e-liquids, or the FDA will ban it completely. If AEMSA were to become a quasi-governmental board that sets the standards, it could work to our advantage in the long run. AEMSA definitely knows far more about e-liquid and its use than the FDA.

J.R.

Vapers should be leery of those entities that might broker consumer interests with government(s).

 

[WorksForMe]

Vapers should be leery of those entities that might broker consumer interests with government(s).

I agree, but somebody is going to make the rules. It might as well be somebody that knows a little about the subject.

J.R.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I agree, but somebody is going to make the rules. It might as well be somebody that knows a little about the subject.

J.R.

As of yet, I'm an not convinced there is compelling reason to make rules.

 

[WorksForMe]

As of yet, I'm an not convinced there is compelling reason to make rules.

Personally, I don't think there needs to be any regulation either, but I'm convinced that its going to happen no matter what we think.

J.R.

 

[kristin]

What was the participation figure Kristin at the time of the number crunching above ?

I believe I saw it was around 7,600 to 7,800.