Evolv sues Joyetech over VW technology !

[f1vefour]

This keeps getting said over & over that Evolv is suing so they can control the entire market but that is NOT the case. Evolv is suing ONE competitor, that's it, no threats of suing anyone else & creating a monopoly. Evolv is upset, feels they got a raw deal so they are suing Joytech. Settle down people, the sky is not falling in on the vape world. I don't imagine one small company with 19 employees is planning on ruining all these giant faceless corporations in the industry so they can be the sole provider of technology.

Okay, what happens if they win. You're looking at Evolv like your friendly neighborhood mail carrier and not the cutthroat businessmen they are.

I think it's naive to believe things will go back to normal if Evolv wins this case. They are damaging their image, they will sell less boards because of this suit. As a business what do you do if the business is not doing well and everyone is infringing on your patent...you send out license our patent or cease and desist letters to all.

 

[Beeker]

I'm Not an Attorney. But I have been on Both Sides of a Patent Dispute. And know that "Unlimited Damages" can Not be sought. And the concept of "Pain and Suffering" I do Not Believe can be Applied in a Patent Suit as justification for Damages.

The Reasonable Royalty part can be somewhat Straight Forward. But the Lost Profits can be Very Difficult to Quantify sometimes.

Because Joyetech will argue that Many purchased the Item because it was Made by Joyetech. And would Not have done so if the Item had been Advertised as containing an Evolv Board. Also there is the Price Differential. Joyetech will also argue that Many would Not Purchase Any Device if the Price Exceeds a certain Limit.

Look at Some of the People in this Thread who will Not Buy Mods that contain Evolv Boards.

So you Can't just tally up Every Mod that Joyetech has Sold and say that these are Profits that should have gone to Evolv.

BTW - 'Wilful and Malicious' is Lawyer speak for "they Fully Understood their Actions". As apposed to someone who made a Mistake. Or had No Notice of a Potential Infringement.

I never said it was "Pain and suffering"...what I suggested was a parallel...Evolv will seek "wilful and malicious' in addition to damages...if they don't they Evolv will get nothing if JoyeTech declares bankruptcy in the event of a large award. Clearly, at least in my opinion, the patent is too broad in its language to be considered reasonable...and JoyeTech didn't copy or clone their design...there's is a distinct design...but they are using the 'method' and the method, was clearly the only 'infringement' IMO (albeit a dubious one) based on the language of the claims in the patent. Did Evolv know of JoyeTech's design before it was fielded? Did Evolv send them a cease and desist before they took it to market? Did JoyeTech ask Evolv for a license before they proceeded to design and market their design? I don't have any of these answers, but if the answer is no (especially the last question), then JoyeTech acted under their belief they were not infringing on Evolv's IP. Again, just my observations...I don't own anything with an Evolv board either.

 

[retired1]

They are damaging their image, they will sell less boards because of this suit. As a business what do you do if the business is not doing well and everyone is infringing on your patent...you send out license our patent or cease and desist letters to all.

Um, no.

It's obvious we don't know the entire story, nor do we know how long Evolv has been in talks with Joyetech over this. And if I were a patent holder, the second I found out that someone was infringing on it, they'd be getting a letter from the lawyers. Doesn't matter if the business is raking in the bucks hand over fist. If you don't fight for your patent and/or trademark rights, allowing things to go unchecked results in a dilution of the brand making it even more difficult to win in court if you do decide to go that route.

Patent and trademark infringement should never, ever be condoned.

 

[Mazinny]

It's obvious we don't know the entire story, nor do we know how long Evolv has been in talks with Joyetech over this.

True, most of us only know what Evolv has alleged in the complaint.

And if I were a patent holder, the second I found out that someone was infringing on it, they'd be getting a letter from the lawyers.

I would too, unfortunately Evolv did not see it this way at the time. Not only did they not get their lawyers on the numerous companies who came out with their own VW devices, they publicly ascertained they would not, unless the devices used a clone of their boards.

If you don't fight for your patent and/or trademark rights, allowing things to go unchecked results in a dilution of the brand making it even more difficult to win in court if you do decide to go that route.

Agreed. Joyetech will have a decent chance of fending off the '330 patent infringement claims through Equitable Estoppel.

 

[JMarca]

I would too, unfortunately Evolv did not see it this way at the time. Not only did they not get their lawyers on the numerous companies who came out with their own VW devices, they publicly ascertained they would not, unless the devices used a clone of their boards.

Meaningless in the court's eyes, I can fall on your doorstep and hurt myself due to negligence get back up tell you I won't sue you today and change my mind tomorrow. You don't verbally forfeit your legal right to sue just because you said you wouldn't. Alot of the reason they sued or even could sue Joyetech was because it had a large presence in the US, having to go after a Chinese company in China has proven near impossible in the past.

Agreed. Joyetech will have a decent chance of fending off the '330 patent infringement claims through Equitable Estoppel.

Equitable Estoppel would imply false representations or concealing material facts from other parties, how does that pertain to this case?

 

[Mazinny]

Meaningless in the court's eyes, I can fall on your doorstep and hurt myself due to negligence get back up tell you I won't sue you today and change my mind tomorrow. You don't verbally forfeit your legal right to sue just because you said you wouldn't. Alot of the reason they sued or even could sue Joyetech was because it had a large presence in the US, having to go after a Chinese company in China has proven near impossible in the past.

Equitable Estoppel would imply false representations or concealing material facts from other parties, how does that pertain to this case?

Equitable estoppel is a legal doctrine that prevents a party from asserting a legal claim or right under principles of fairness and equity. In the 1992 en banc decision of Aukerman v. Chides Constr., the Federal Circuit identified three elements of the equitable estoppel doctrine in the context of patent infringement. Most often, a claim of equitable estoppel arises after a lengthy period of inaction by the patent holder trying to assert its rights in an infringement situation. In the case of patent infringement, certain actions by a patentee can lead to a claim of equitable estoppel by an alleged infringer:

1. Misleading Silence: the patentee, through misleading conduct (or silence), leads the alleged infringer to reasonably infer that the patentee does not intend to enforce its patent against the alleged infringer;
2. Reliance: alleged infringer relies on the conduct; and
3. Prejudice: the alleged infringer will be materially prejudiced if the patentee is allowed to proceed with its claim.

The misleading conduct ( or silence ) in this case is Evolv's previous assertions in general, and their knowingly doing business with Joyetech while JT was selling ( and had sold for years ) a variety of products containing the patent infringing technology, specifically.

 

[zoiDman]

I never said it was "Pain and suffering"...what I suggested was a parallel...Evolv will seek "wilful and malicious' in addition to damages...if they don't they Evolv will get nothing if JoyeTech declares bankruptcy in the event of a large award. Clearly, at least in my opinion, the patent is too broad in its language to be considered reasonable...and JoyeTech didn't copy or clone their design...there's is a distinct design...but they are using the 'method' and the method, was clearly the only 'infringement' IMO (albeit a dubious one) based on the language of the claims in the patent. Did Evolv know of JoyeTech's design before it was fielded? Did Evolv send them a cease and desist before they took it to market? Did JoyeTech ask Evolv for a license before they proceeded to design and market their design? I don't have any of these answers, but if the answer is no (especially the last question), then JoyeTech acted under their belief they were not infringing on Evolv's IP. Again, just my observations...I don't own anything with an Evolv board either.

All I'm say'n is that Patent Infringement Lawsuits are Not like Civil Lawsuits between Individuals. And that there are Limitations to what Can be Sought in Monetary Damages by the Patent Holder.

 

[JMarca]

Equitable estoppel is a legal doctrine that prevents a party from asserting a legal claim or right under principles of fairness and equity. In the 1992 en banc decision of Aukerman v. Chides Constr., the Federal Circuit identified three elements of the equitable estoppel doctrine in the context of patent infringement. Most often, a claim of equitable estoppel arises after a lengthy period of inaction by the patent holder trying to assert its rights in an infringement situation. In the case of patent infringement, certain actions by a patentee can lead to a claim of equitable estoppel by an alleged infringer:

1. Misleading Silence: the patentee, through misleading conduct (or silence), leads the alleged infringer to reasonably infer that the patentee does not intend to enforce its patent against the alleged infringer;
2. Reliance: alleged infringer relies on the conduct; and
3. Prejudice: the alleged infringer will be materially prejudiced if the patentee is allowed to proceed with its claim.

The misleading conduct ( or silence ) in this case is Evolv's previous assertions in general, and their knowingly doing business with Joyetech while JT was selling ( and had sold for years ) a variety of products containing the patent infringing technology.

I know what it means, I fallback to my first statement in a court that's meaningless. Just because they were silent and didn't take action at whatever point in the past doesn't make their patent claim invalid.

 

[Mazinny]

I know what it means, I fallback to my first statement in a court that's meaningless. Just because they were silent and didn't take action at whatever point in the past doesn't make their patent claim invalid.

Sorry, your argument doesn't make any sense to me. You claim, that you know what it means, but you are arguing the exact opposite anyway.

Read the excerpt i quoted again, if you still insist that Evolvs silence and failure to take action in years, and entering into a business arrangement with JT, is meaningless in this context, there's likely nothing i can say to sway your opinion, nor do i particularly care tbh.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Agreed. Joyetech will have a decent chance of fending off the '330 patent infringement claims through Equitable Estoppel.

One thing that Many People might not understand is the Length of Time between when a Patent Holder may 1st Contact a potential Infringing Company to when an Actual Lawsuit may be Filed.

In the case I was Involved in, thru the Patent Holder, it was about 3 Years between 1st Contact and the Filing of a Suit. And then it was just over 1 Year when the Patent Holder (the Company I was associated with) reached an OOC (out of court) Agreement.

 

[JMarca]

Sorry, your argument doesn't make any sense to me. You claim, that you know what it means, but you are arguing the exact opposite anyway.

Read the excerpt i quoted again, if you still insist that Evolvs silence and failure to take action in years, and entering into a business arrangement with JT, is meaningless in this context, there's likely nothing i can say to sway your opinion, nor do i particularly care tbh.

You seem to be getting upset but I'm not sure you fully understand how patent law works.

In the US., there is no statute of limitations in patent infringement actions. However, the Patent act specifies that damages are only available for infringement that occurred up tosix-years before the filing of the complaint.

A defendant may also be able to use the doctrine of "laches" as an affirmative defense to a claim for patent infringement if the patent holder's delay in bringing suit is unreasonable and inexcusable, and the alleged infringer suffers material prejudice attributable to the delay. A successful laches defense bars damages only for conduct occurring prior to the filing of the lawsuit.

A presumption of laches arises if the patent owner's delays bringing a suit for more than six years after actual (or constructive) knowledge of the defendant's infringing activity. The patent owner can overcome laches by showing good reasons for its delay.

Also remember Evolv was selling chips to Joyetech before the RX was even to market as the DNA version came out beforehand. So the business agreement was already in place and you nor I have any idea what was outlined if they had an agreement at all, maybe they were contractually obligated to continue to fill orders, we don't know that and frankly I don't really think it matters either way.

 

[Mazinny]

One thing that Many People might not understand is the Length of Time between when a Patent Holder may 1st Contact and potential Infringing Company to when an Actual Lawsuit may be Filed.

In the case I was Involved in, thru the Patent Holder, it was about 3 Years between 1st Contact and the Filing of a Suit. And then it was just over 1 Year when the Patent Holder (the Company I was associated with) reached an OOC (out of court) Agreement.

That's something we aren't privy to. If Evolv contacted JT years ago over alleged patent infringement (contrary to what they publicly claimed ), and there were continued discussions, that would clearly be a different scenario.

 

[Mazinny]

You seem to be getting upset but I'm not sure you fully understand how patent law works.

No not getting upset really, and i have a basic understanding of how patent law works. It's over 20 years ago, but i studied patent law for a semester.

Laches is a related concept, but i am not claiming it applies here.

 

[zoiDman]

That's something we aren't privy to. If Evolv contacted JT years ago over alleged patent infringement (contrary to what they publicly claimed ), and there were continued discussions, that would clearly be a different scenario.

I can Almost Guarantee that this has Occurred.

We see a Lawsuit. But what is Rarely seen is the "Legal Tennis" that goes on Back-n-Forth between the Parties prior to the Filing of the Lawsuit.

Also, this thing about Evolv continuing to have/have had a Business Relationship with Joyetech is Not all that Unusual.

 

[f1vefour]

Um, no.

It's obvious we don't know the entire story, nor do we know how long Evolv has been in talks with Joyetech over this. And if I were a patent holder, the second I found out that someone was infringing on it, they'd be getting a letter from the lawyers. Doesn't matter if the business is raking in the bucks hand over fist. If you don't fight for your patent and/or trademark rights, allowing things to go unchecked results in a dilution of the brand making it even more difficult to win in court if you do decide to go that route.

Patent and trademark infringement should never, ever be condoned.

Yes they are, I am an individual who sees this as damaging to their image. You don't and that's fine, there will be those on both sides of the fence I assure you.

Okay, why have Evolv not gone after any other manufacturer? They are all infringing. Why is it only Joyetech who is diluting their brand? And how is Joyetech diluting anything, I don't own a Joyetech product and have been vaping for years.

I have said this already, I like that Evolv continues to push the technology but have no investment in their products or Joyetech. I am looking at this fully impartial.

To any manufacturers out there that may be following this thread, I highly suggest you change your variable wattage devices to use Joules instead.

I strongly feel that Evolv would have already played this card if the SX350J used wattage instead of joule, they are the true competition of Evolv's target audience...it's not Joyetech.

 

[zoiDman]

That's something we aren't privy to. If Evolv contacted JT years ago over alleged patent infringement (contrary to what they publicly claimed ), and there were continued discussions, that would clearly be a different scenario.

BTW - All of this may be Moot. Because it might turn out that Evolv's patent is not considered Valid.

So everyone goes about their Merry Ways. And, of course, the Lawyers (on BOTH Sides) will have gotten a Lot Richer.

 

[Mazinny]

I can Almost Guarantee that this has Occurred.

We see a Lawsuit. But what is Rarely seen is the "Legal Tennis" that goes on Back-n-Forth between the Parties prior to the Filing of the Lawsuit.

Also, this thing about Evolv continuing to have/have had a Business Relationship with Joyetech is Not all that Unusual.

Perhaps, we will find out more as the case proceeds.

I don't think the business relationship is unusual either, it just makes it plainly obvious to the jury that Evolv was indeed aware of the plethora of infringing products JT were selling for years, without taking any action ( If indeed they hadn't, prior to the RX200 ). If they had, as you suspect, then clearly it's a different situation.

 

[Rizzyking]

I'm sure I read somewhere that was the reason yihi went with joules because of the evolv patent but can't remember where I read it.

 

[zoiDman]

Perhaps, we will find out more as the case proceeds.

I don't think the business relationship is unusual either, it just makes it plainly obvious to the jury that Evolv was indeed aware of the plethora of infringing products JT were selling for years, without taking any action ( If indeed they hadn't, prior to the RX200 ). If they had, as you suspect, then clearly it's a different situation.

I'm not privy to Any of the Details or Timelines of all this. But If I was Evolv, I might want a Judge to hear this case. And Not a Jury.

 

[f1vefour]

I'm sure I read somewhere that was the reason yihi went with joules because of the evolv patent but can't remember where I read it.

I never understood why but I now believe this is why as well. Either that or they just got lucky in their choice, no one can say except yihi.