Evolv sues Joyetech over VW technology !

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JMarca

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I agree that going to China is not the way to go. I am wondering however if Evolv wins against
Joytech USA will Joytech China be enjoined to any agreement? If they are I can see it only binding in the USA. Would this mean Joytech China could make all the wattage control products they wanted but,couldn't sell them here?
Regards
Mike

No, patents can be upheld overseas and if a judge or jury finds joyetech guilty then it can be enforced in China as well. The problem isn't that China doesn't recognize patent law, it's that it pretty much ignores it even though they're in an agreement to uphold it with other countries. Also, you can do damage by simply filing a complaint after you've won claiming that they're still importing the items from China and the fines would hurt after they investigate since they're calculated by units shipped. If they persist you can get a court order to stop all incoming shipments into the country coming from joyetech all together. Ignoring a court ruling is a bad idea no matter how you slice it.
 
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JMarca

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@JMarca Thanks. That leads to my next question. Will other Chinese companies
be caught up into the net? At least as it relates to imports into the US?
Win or lose I don't think Evolv intends to go over to China and slug it out.
Regards
Mike
That was part of my what if list I posted a while back in this thread. If Evolv wins how far will they go? I guess no one can answer that yet as it's too early but my ultimate fear is that they'll try to monopolize the market which is always a bad thing. Competition is always healthy if we end up with nothing but Evolv and Yihi chips that's a loss for us all.

On the other hand I do think it should protect all their R&D and it's patents, they have a right to and they patented the idea so I'm not completely against this case.
 

TheMike21

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After 21 pages of reading. I noticed nobody had speculated onto what I just thought. Now keep in mind my knowledge of US Law comes from American TV shows...

Wouldn't Joyetech just burry Evolve in legal comings and going until they cannot afford to stay in business?

I believe Joytech has more money.

Also somewhere before it was mentioned but I will confirm it. I would not have purchased a DNA200 if there was no RX200. Actually I bought neither, I got a Cuboid because it was an affordable 150w and if the $ per W had been higher than .5 us I would probably have stayed with my Ijust2.
 

Mazinny

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I agree that going to China is not the way to go. I am wondering however if Evolv wins against
Joytech USA will Joytech China be enjoined to any agreement? If they are I can see it only binding in the USA. Would this mean Joytech China could make all the wattage control products they wanted but,couldn't sell them here?
Regards
Mike
Joyetech China is named as a defendant as well.

As for your second question, patents are territorial and must be filed in each country where protection is sought, although there is a mechanism through the Patent Cooperation Treaty, where by filing one application with the USPTO, you can seek protection in multiple countries, but it's up to each country ( or EU ) to grant the application. I don't know if Evolv has applied ( and been granted ) a vw patent in China ( or any other country ), but i doubt it.

Since the rights granted by a U.S. patent extend only throughout the territory of the United States and have no effect in a foreign country, an inventor who wishes patent protection in other countries must apply for a patent in each of the other countries or in regional patent offices.

Protecting Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) Overseas | USPTO
 
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JMarca

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Joyetech China is named as a defendant as well.

As for your second question, patents are territorial and must be filed in each country where protection is sought, although there is a mechanism through the Patent Cooperation Treaty, where by filing one application with the USPTO, you can seek protection in multiple countries, but it's up to each country ( or EU ) to grant the application. I don't know if Evolv has applied ( and been granted ) a vw patent in China ( or any other country ), but i doubt it.

Since the rights granted by a U.S. patent extend only throughout the territory of the United States and have no effect in a foreign country, an inventor who wishes patent protection in other countries must apply for a patent in each of the other countries or in regional patent offices.

Protecting Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) Overseas | USPTO
This hasn't been the case in years, you can file a patent in multiple territories with the same patent application. Also, foreign countries have agreements with the United States to recognize your copyright/patent registration. If the country you're interested in does not, then you can seek out what's needed to register with said country. One of the rules Bill Clinton laid out when he signed the open trade laws with China was that they follow and adhere to our patent laws so they are a participating entity but they sure as hell don't act like it.
 

AtmizrOpin

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i'm having an idle problem with my 2000 honda civic lx. it's got the 1.6L d16y7 motor. the idle refuses to settle, even after sufficient warm up time. i keep getting the p0505 code from the obd 2. i replaced the idle air crontrol valve but the high idle still persists. no vacuum leaks either, checked. i have the base idle set screw completely screwed in and STILL cannot get the idle below 1200-1100 rpm. help!
 

fishwater

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i'm having an idle problem with my 2000 honda civic lx. it's got the 1.6L d16y7 motor. the idle refuses to settle, even after sufficient warm up time. i keep getting the p0505 code from the obd 2. i replaced the idle air crontrol valve but the high idle still persists. no vacuum leaks either, checked. i have the base idle set screw completely screwed in and STILL cannot get the idle below 1200-1100 rpm. help!

Not that this is the correct forum for this but.....a code does not necessarily indicate a problem in the component but one in the system. I.E. there could be a signal issue to the IAC motor causing it not react properly.. Granted if the IAC is filled with carbon so it can't actuate if it was mechanical then that would surely cause a failure but in this case it may be something else telling the engine to compensate like a lean fuel mixture, etc. Best bet is to read it with a scanner, see what the O2's, IAC, fuel trim etc are telling the ECM & go from there. Unfortunately you'll have to know what the data values are to understand what is going on but paying a shop for a diagnosis is sometimes cheaper then throwing the old diagnostic dart & replacing components. I'm sure if it's a known issue someone who works on Honda's will have a fix for you. Good luck.
 

Mazinny

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This hasn't been the case in years.
I provided a link to the current USPTO website.
you can file a patent in multiple territories with the same patent application.
I clearly stated the same in my post. It's called an International Application. I haven't seen any evidence Evolv applied for one, or more importantly if it was granted, in any territory other than the U.S.
Also, foreign countries have agreements with the United States to recognize your copyright/patent registration.
This may be the case with copyrights, but not patents. There is no such thing as a " Universal Patent ". International Application yes, but that's just the first step, it must be followed up in each country and territory. Each country or territory ( i.e European Union ) will then decide whether to grant a patent according to the laws of their own jurisdiction.
One of the rules Bill Clinton laid out when he signed the open trade laws with China was that they follow and adhere to our patent laws so they are a participating entity but they sure as hell don't act like it.
Please provide some evidence. U.S. Patents have no effect in any other country ( including China )
 
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f1vefour

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i'm having an idle problem with my 2000 honda civic lx. it's got the 1.6L d16y7 motor. the idle refuses to settle, even after sufficient warm up time. i keep getting the p0505 code from the obd 2. i replaced the idle air crontrol valve but the high idle still persists. no vacuum leaks either, checked. i have the base idle set screw completely screwed in and STILL cannot get the idle below 1200-1100 rpm. help!
Off topic post of the year.

Disconnect the battery for 10 minutes, reconnect and drive it for 5 or 10 miles. If still rough check pcv valve and seal for cracks. If that checks out check the throttle valve for excessive wear.

If not serious, lol.
 

JMarca

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I clearly stated the same in my post. It's called an International Application. I haven't seen any evidence Joyetech applied for one, or more importantly if it was granted, in any territory other than the U.S.
Joyetech can't apply for anything they're the ones being sued.

This may be the case with copyrights, but not patents. There is no such thing as a " Universal Patent ". International Application yes, but that's just the first step, it must be followed up in each country and territory. Each country or territory ( i.e European Union ) will then decide whether to grant a patent according to the laws of their own jurisdiction.
I work with copyrights and trademarks so you might have a point here, I know when we file for a standard application we generally get full WTO coverage with all participating entities. Interesting that patents don't work the same, in theory I see no reason why they shouldn't.

Please provide some evidence. U.S. Patents have no effect in any other country ( including China )
What?
Who said they didn't? Re-read please, I said "that they follow and adhere to our patent laws" no the opposite, being obligated to and actually doing it are two different things, China hasn't been exactly a model citizen in the WIPO community.
 

Mazinny

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Joyetech can't apply for anything they're the ones being sued.
Yes, I meant Evolv. I will edit my post. Thank You.
What?
Who said they didn't? Re-read please, I said "that they follow and adhere to our patent laws" no the opposite, being obligated to and actually doing it are two different things, China hasn't been exactly a model citizen in the WIPO community.
Actually doing what ? Not sure what you are saying here. What i said was that U.S. Patents have no effect in China ( or any other country ) and since you seemingly disagreed, I asked you to provide evidence that China has committed to adhere to and enforce U.S. Patents.

I really think you are confusing copyright with patents. Foreign companies have actually had a pretty good success rate against Chinese firms, when suing in Chinese courts, provided they filed for and were granted a Chinese patent.
 

Yozhik

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Just some thoughts I'd share on this topic.

1) Evolv doesn't have a patent covering all forms of VW, rather it has specific forms of VW implementation as described by the claims of their patent.

2) To infringe said claims, a competitor must perform each and every element of said claims. Thus, for example, to infringe claim 1 of their '330 patent, an electronic vaporizer device must include, in part: a power manager operatively connected to the user input device and the power source and configured to regulate the power level delivered to the heating element to substantially the wattage setting during activation of the electronic vaporizer device, regardless of heating element parameters and a state of the power source, to consistently control a quantity and a quality of vapor produced by the electronic vaporizer device. (Emphasis Added).

3) Under patent law, claims must be given their broadest reasonable interpretation. Accordingly, the language I bolded above will probably make or break the case for Evolv. The reason is that the defendant will likely claim that the refusal to fire when an atomizer's resistance or battery voltage is outside permissible ranges means that their mod's do not have a power manager the performs what the bolded language above requires.

4) Patent claims when litigated go through what is called a Markman hearing, where parties can propose how various terms or phrases (e.g., the bolded language above) should be construed so that the jury can understand them. The judge than issues a Markman ruling giving the claim constructions, which may accept some proposed constructions, reject others, or reach different constructions than what both parties wanted. Regardless, that ruling is typically what often decides cases. Personally, I think this aspect will be an uphill struggle for Evolv, but I'll keep my legal opinions to those who pay me for them. ;)

5) Evolv has ongoing prosecution based on the original patent filing. This isn't all that unusual, as once a patent examiner provides notice of allowance, an applicant often takes what it has received and than files a continuation application trying to get better claims. Accordingly, Evolv may some day have patents issued that could have more commercial impact, but since they didn't expedite prosecution on their continuation they can only sue on the one patent they have now.

6) Patent enforcement is limited solely to where a patent is granted. While patent treaties facilitate the filing of patent applications internationally, a patent granted in a country can only apply to products and services within that country. Accordingly, Evolv's U.S. patent only covers the U.S. market and has zero influence over what goes on in Europe or China. To affect those markets, they would need patents granted in those areas.
 

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Not that this is the correct forum for this but.....a code does not necessarily indicate a problem in the component but one in the system. I.E. there could be a signal issue to the IAC motor causing it not react properly.. Granted if the IAC is filled with carbon so it can't actuate if it was mechanical then that would surely cause a failure but in this case it may be something else telling the engine to compensate like a lean fuel mixture, etc. Best bet is to read it with a scanner, see what the O2's, IAC, fuel trim etc are telling the ECM & go from there. Unfortunately you'll have to know what the data values are to understand what is going on but paying a shop for a diagnosis is sometimes cheaper then throwing the old diagnostic dart & replacing components. I'm sure if it's a known issue someone who works on Honda's will have a fix for you. Good luck.

Replaced IAC..................but have you cleaned the Throttle Body? Any contamination could be keeping it from fully closing.
Under hood, at throttle attachment, with engine running, press toward closed throttle.
Bump throttle and press closed a few times.
If RPM drops off, throttle may be holding in a partial open condition.

Meanwhile, I have doubts China is concerned with our court system. Likely they are more concerned with the Debt we owe them. :ohmy:
 

skoony

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Joyetech China is named as a defendant as well.

As for your second question, patents are territorial and must be filed in each country where protection is sought, although there is a mechanism through the Patent Cooperation Treaty, where by filing one application with the USPTO, you can seek protection in multiple countries, but it's up to each country ( or EU ) to grant the application. I don't know if Evolv has applied ( and been granted ) a vw patent in China ( or any other country ), but i doubt it.

Since the rights granted by a U.S. patent extend only throughout the territory of the United States and have no effect in a foreign country, an inventor who wishes patent protection in other countries must apply for a patent in each of the other countries or in regional patent offices.

Protecting Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) Overseas | USPTO
@Mazzinny Thanks for your response however that is not what I am trying to
find out.
You did point out that JT china is not mentioned in the litigation. That's a very
important start.
I understand that one must file patents in each and every country and also
one must actively enforce them.
My question now becomes if Evolv wins against JT USA how and or if it will
this affect JT China here in the USA. If Evolve wins does JT China get to sell
the infringing product in the USA or in other channels in the USA?
If JT China is enjoined as being the parent company what does that mean
for other companies importing products deemed infringing by any legal
agreement between the parties involved are covered here in the USA?
Regards
Mike
 
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Rizzyking

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If evolv wins then joyetech will just withdraw from the US market and continue selling everywhere else as evolv is not going to win this case in the EU from what I've been told. At that point we will see if joyetech is a one off or if evolv will move onto other manufacturers though I have seen nothing that alters my initial belief that this is near impossible for evolv to win. Basically Mike this is a US matter and it's affects will be limited to the US.
 

AtmizrOpin

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Not that this is the correct forum for this but.....a code does not necessarily indicate a problem in the component but one in the system. I.E. there could be a signal issue to the IAC motor causing it not react properly.. Granted if the IAC is filled with carbon so it can't actuate if it was mechanical then that would surely cause a failure but in this case it may be something else telling the engine to compensate like a lean fuel mixture, etc. Best bet is to read it with a scanner, see what the O2's, IAC, fuel trim etc are telling the ECM & go from there. Unfortunately you'll have to know what the data values are to understand what is going on but paying a shop for a diagnosis is sometimes cheaper then throwing the old diagnostic dart & replacing components. I'm sure if it's a known issue someone who works on Honda's will have a fix for you. Good luck.

Off topic post of the year.

Disconnect the battery for 10 minutes, reconnect and drive it for 5 or 10 miles. If still rough check pcv valve and seal for cracks. If that checks out check the throttle valve for excessive wear.

If not serious, lol.

Replaced IAC..................but have you cleaned the Throttle Body? Any contamination could be keeping it from fully closing.
Under hood, at throttle attachment, with engine running, press toward closed throttle.
Bump throttle and press closed a few times.
If RPM drops off, throttle may be holding in a partial open condition.

Meanwhile, I have doubts China is concerned with our court system. Likely they are more concerned with the Debt we owe them. :ohmy:

thanks guys for the input. no it's not a joke. i also promise this will be my last post about it. i figured someone out there might have some ideas. @fishwater has me closer to what i think is prob. no leaks, pcv valve new, throttle body cleaned, new IAC, MAP and TPS good, throttle plate completely closing so.......... going to put it on an OBD 2 live data screen and check up stream and down stream o2's. as well as ECT sensor etc. sorry and thanks guys! gotta love ecf.
 

Yozhik

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@Mazzinny Thanks for your response however that is not what I am trying to
find out.
You did point out that JT china is not mentioned in the litigation. That's a very
important start.
I understand that one must file patents in each and every country and also
one must actively enforce them.
My question now becomes if Evolv wins against JT USA how and or if it will
this affect JT China here in the USA. If Evolve wins does JT China get to sell
the infringing product in the USA or in other channels in the USA?
If JT China is enjoined as being the parent company what does that mean
for other companies importing products deemed infringing by any legal
agreement between the parties involved are covered here in the USA?
Regards
Mike

Disputes against foreign parties in terms of patent litigation is handled by the US International Trade Commission ("ITC"), which is what patent holders use to prevent importation of infringing goods by non-US entities. It's a separate legal action from what Evolv is pursuing now. As to other parties other than Joyetech, Evolv has to prove it case by case, as proving infringement is a factual matter that changes from defendant to defendant.
 

Mazinny

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@Mazzinny Thanks for your response however that is not what I am trying to
find out.
You did point out that JT china is not mentioned in the litigation. That's a very
important start.
I understand that one must file patents in each and every country and also
one must actively enforce them.
My question now becomes if Evolv wins against JT USA how and or if it will
this affect JT China here in the USA. If Evolve wins does JT China get to sell
the infringing product in the USA or in other channels in the USA?
If JT China is enjoined as being the parent company what does that mean
for other companies importing products deemed infringing by any legal
agreement between the parties involved are covered here in the USA?
Regards
Mike
I actually said that JT China is named as a defendant !

As for the procedural details of enforcement, i would have said, i don't know, but thankfully @Yozhik responded :)
 
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Mazinny

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Disputes against foreign parties in terms of patent litigation is handled by the US International Trade Commission ("ITC"), which is what patent holders use to prevent importation of infringing goods by non-US entities. It's a separate legal action from what Evolv is pursuing now. As to other parties other than Joyetech, Evolv has to prove it case by case, as proving infringement is a factual matter that changes from defendant to defendant.
Are you a patent lawyer ?
 
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