expensive mods

[MiXoLoGiSt]

Voltage regulators, variable voltage are available in 50 dollar flash lights and have been for...at least 4 years now. Now the Darwin and Provari (with its single battery booster, also found in flash lights) deserve some credit for incorporating such tech into the vaping world, but they are still relatively overpriced to similar tech...of course as the first ones to have that technology and present it on a large scale its their right to set the price however they want....but its a no brainer china is going to do the same thing for a fifth of the price, if the market was large enough I am sure someone would undercut them domestically.

Im sorry but a flashlight with a VV chip in it is NOT comparable to a custom machined mod such as the provari or darwin. Its a damn flashlight. If you really think about it, Its like trying to compare a Toyota to a BMW. Sure they incorporate the same technology, but the BMW has more features making it a far more expensive vehicle built with higher quality parts and a better warranty.

 

[wv2win]

Voltage regulators, variable voltage are available in 50 dollar flash lights and have been for...at least 4 years now. Now the Darwin and Provari (with its single battery booster, also found in flash lights) deserve some credit for incorporating such tech into the vaping world, but they are still relatively overpriced to similar tech...of course as the first ones to have that technology and present it on a large scale its their right to set the price however they want....but its a no brainer china is going to do the same thing for a fifth of the price, if the market was large enough I am sure someone would undercut them domestically.

I actually know one of the owners of Evolve who is also an electrical engineer. They had to hire an even smarter electrical engineer to "engineer" the Darwin so it would work right and they still had to make changes and improvements after the first run. Then factor in their production and start up costs.

With all due respect, you don't have a clue what is involved in making a higher-end electronic device from scratch and getting it into production. There is a big difference between what you do in your garage and what a company like Evolv had to do to bring their product to market. And unless you have taken a Darwin apart, priced out each component, know where they got the components, know the quality of the component in comparison to another supplier's component, factor in the engineering and production costs, not to mentioned overhead, marketing, etc - then you have no way of knowing that they are "overpriced".

 

[Ande]

Im sorry but a flashlight with a VV chip in it is NOT comparable to a custom machined mod such as the provari or darwin. Its a damn flashlight. If you really think about it, Its like trying to compare a Toyota to a BMW. Sure they incorporate the same technology, but the BMW has more features making it a far more expensive vehicle built with higher quality parts and a better warranty.

Actually it's more like comparing a toyota to a refrigerator. ;-)

Totally different purpose devices.

One of the things for me- I'm hard on things. I CAN build, in my study, a 3.7 volt mod that will, in theory, hit about the same as a Precise.

It's gonna break, though. I've never owned a precise, but I know the specs. That thing is gonna last forever.

It's like my whiskey. The guy drinking Black Velvet thinks I'm paying too much for it, but he doesn't know what he's missing.

I honestly DO think that mod prices will come down over the next few years. A bit.

But there's no need to get worked up over it. Don't like, don't buy.

If you're sure that a given item could be found, or produced, for much less that it currently sells for, then...um, find it or produce it. What gets me is that all the folks who are talking about how mods should cost less, aren't making mods. Don't want to make mods. Don't know how to make mods.

Want to buy the mods that others are making, just want the others to sell them for less. And THAT is not how it works.


Best,
Ande

 

[swedishfish]

I don't have a mod but from what I read on the board it seems like everyone that has one is extremely happy with them. In the classifieds they sell for almost what people paid for them, so they hold their value. They seem to have great warranties.
I wish they were less expensive, but it seems like they're worth the money.

 

[misplacedsooner]

i have 3 mods in front of me. all of them i can talk with the maker and if i have a problem they stand behind their product to the fullest. if i buy a generic model from over seas will the maker stand behind it? i dont think any of the big makers are out to make a killing on us, obviously their mods are good enough to make them a living and thats what we all work for.

 

[brittanyNI]

You can go to staples and buy a lease contract for $25. Or you can go to a lawyer, discuss in detail exactly what is most important to you, and have him craft a lease contract that takes into account your needs.

A certain amount of that contract will be boiler-plate -- choice of venue, severability, blah blah. And, yes, that's the same stuff more or less that you'll see in the $25 staples contract. But the rest of it will be custom -- a one of a kind thing -- something you can't get off the shelf at staples.

But, you see, we have not yet figured out how to outsource lawyers to child slave labor in Bangladesh like we have outsourced machinists, welders, electrical assemblers and so forth. As a result, you will have to pay him (or her) for the expertise acquired through law school, reading various court decisions, etc. So that contract is going to cost you $400.

The same thing applies to a mod. Mods are made in small quantities via domestic labor. They are generally hand made individually. I'm not a machinist, but I am quite sure that lathes and mills aren't cheap and setting them to make precise threads and stuff is its own special skill. And then paying workman's comp, unemployment insurance, employer's half of the social security, a living wage worthy of a craftsman etc. all adds up.

Something tells me, incidentally, that the moment we CAN outsource lawyers (especially those that are politicians) to child slave labor in Bangladesh, a whole lotta laws will change in this country. LOL

 

[bnrkwest]

Specialty market and also what will the market bear. I also understand the special made mods that are hand built rather than mass produced, we are paying for hand crafted items. Some better than others for sure. I wish I could make a mod, probably if I studied it a bit more I could. I have worked in building/assembling electronics from phones to PC boards and even have military soldering qualifications. Used to build things for aircraft communication boxes way back when! LOL Sooooo I could probably figure it all out, so it is so much easier to buy a mod that someone has worked out the kinks with and looks nice already. I really think it could be build and get ideas for smaller handier sized mods that suit the user. Maybe we need a place/thread to put all the "What I want in Mod" suggestions. This could help builders know what we want and if it can be done. For me long battery life and Mod power in a slim sized KR808 style is what I really want Technology is not there yet, but most likely it will come. I also want a solar charged batt, just leave in a sunny window and it charges Ok futuristic but if we don't think outside the box (pun intended) we will never get there. LOL bnrk

 

[Goldenkobold]

I actually know one of the owners of Evolve who is also an electrical engineer.

Well that would explain the rolling darwin add that is your posting history. I really liked the one were you recommended it for someone looking for an inexpensive box mod.

Im sorry but a flashlight with a VV chip in it is NOT comparable to a custom machined mod such as the provari or darwin. Its a damn flashlight. If you really think about it, Its like trying to compare a Toyota to a BMW. Sure they incorporate the same technology, but the BMW has more features making it a far more expensive vehicle built with higher quality parts and a better warranty.

I think you need to take a look on the google, flashlights are not all created equal and there is a reason flash light battery suppliers were the first ones modders went to when they were looking for power sources or why lighthound is still the cheapest place to get batteries.

• Uses two 3V CR123A batteries (Lithium) or one 18650 rechargeable battery (Li-ion)
• 127mm (Length) x 25.4mm (Diameter)
• 61-gram weight (excluding batteries)
• Digitally regulated output - constant power level
• Reverse polarity protection, to protect from improper battery installation
• Made of durable aircraft-grade aluminum

Look like a mod feature read out? Its the Fenix Flashlight.

Someone up there mentioned the Lavatube as a proof of concept that the technolog/material is not that expensive- China is going to be pumping those out at wholesale for 30 bucks a pop, so that means they are making it and profiting off of it at 30 bucks a pop, ask yourself...if china can make it for 30 bucks and profit at that price how much do you think they are making it for?

I can understand someone saying they buy American (or European or any small production vaping producer) for design (that is why I buy mods) or to support American labor over foreign (that is a valid stand), or that buying mods supports R&D and innovation instead of endless Chinese copies of current tech. But lets not pretend the OP is wrong in his assertion that from a material point of view yes there is a huge mark up. He is 100% correct. No real point in arguing that fact.

But when you buy a precise your not just getting a metal tube (stainless steel) with very well machines end cap and bottom cap, your paying for the support of the manufacturer in his warranty, for his R&D time, for his CAD time, and hopefully it will lead to more innovative products down the road all vapers can enjoy. Same with the GG and the Darwin and whatever...that may be, and the market says is, worth the extra costs but the materials are not. (but hey that's true of an ipod as well the nano was reported to cost $90 to make when it was sold for $200, or a 3DS from nintendo which is made for 102.00 and originally retailed for $250)

I want an Empire from empiremods, I do, I know its aluminum (which means it probably has all of 3 dollars worth of metal in it....maybe 7) Machined on a mass scale (which means they probably spend less than 50-60 to make it), I know empire mod doesn't have a $100 dollars of overhead on every unit sold so they are making a good profit on each one, I don't care, I like the looks and I like the innovative telescopic internal two piece threading tube. Apparently I am not alone as I can't even give them my money right now as they are sold out. Markets determine price, if no one bought them at 130 bucks they would lower the price, but not only did people buy them...they bought every single unit in inventory...I don't see a price drop anytime soon. Does it costs a lot more than the material used to make it...oh yea...is it overpriced? Well that is debatable, but with the current lack of similar products and the business being what it is from a market stand point its not.

One day, assuming government regulation doesn't stop it and it continues to be a safer alternative (no one starts glowing green from vaping), the user base will get so large as to attract more large distribution networks, prices will drop you will get darwin level tech for 40 bucks and mechanical level devices for 39.99 on a wal-mart shelf. But be careful what you ask for as we currently can talk to our manufacturers as people, no one gets sent to india when they call for tech support and we haven't attracted a ton of government regulation and taxes. If that day comes, I think some people will wonder if it wasn't better when we paid more but could actually talk to the person making the juice/device.

 

[wv2win]

Well that would explain the rolling darwin add that is your posting history. I really liked the one were you recommended it for someone looking for an inexpensive box mod................

I'm not surprised that is the only comment you could make about my response "debunking" your BS that a PV such as the Darwin or Provari are overpriced. It's obvious you have never run a business, made a payroll, bought inventory, PAID for someone's knowledge and expertise, effectively run a marketing program or developed a product or service from beginning to end. Those of us who have, know it's more than buying some "off the shelf" components, slapping them together and getting a "Go-Daddy" web site. You are way "over-matched" when it comes to business-sense.

 

[o4_srt]

I'm not surprised that is the only comment you could make about my response "debunking" your BS that a PV such as the Darwin or Provari are overpriced. It's obvious you have never run a business, made a payroll, bought inventory, PAID for someone's knowledge and expertise, effectively run a marketing program or developed a product or service from beginning to end. Those of us who have, know it's more than buying some "off the shelf" components, slapping them together and getting a "Go-Daddy" web site. You are way "over-matched" when it comes to business-sense.

Before this thread falls off the cliff, why don't we stop arguing over what is clearly an opinion with no right or wrong answer.

If one size fit all we wouldn't have the plethora of mods available to us.

 

[Iffy]

why don't we stop arguing over what is clearly an opinion with no right or wrong answer.

What? And miss the train wreck...

 

[John Phoenix]

I wrote,

" That's the beauty of living in America. If you want to protect your design you get a patent on it. If not and you publish it on a forum where anyone can see it, It's open season for anyone who wants to copy that mod. This is the way it works. No credit given is needed. The Modder relinquishes his claim to the design when he posts it publicly without a patent.
I cannot feel sorry for anyone who cries because someone stole his idea and did not take the steps to protect it properly. "

ChaosAffect writes in reply,

I'm not after any money, or even any credit for myself. What I am saying is that if a vendor does lift something from the modders at least credit them. You're opinion is obviously that of someone that's never contributed. Your argument is invalid. LoL.
In the end I know there won't be any satisfaction, though. Your sig speaks of inalienable rights, and it appears that one of the inalienable rights of most Americans is to be constantly screwed and not say a thing about it. If you're ok with the idea of someone taking something that was posted freely to help all vapers and making a unreasonable profit on it, then your sig should just read 'Apathy'.

swedishfish writes in reply,

Not only don't say anything but expect it to happen. Seriously, if I ever have that sort of mindset I'll take a bubble bath with my toaster.
Is it that much of a fricken deal to credit someone?

I see it all the time not just in the Modders forums but invention forums all over the net. The information on how to make the mod from DIY items is still out there. The intent for that design as written by the mod, to help people did not change. I would not take someones idea and profit from it out of respect ( at least without getting permission for said purpose) but other people will. This is spomething that is known and happens all the time. I don't "expect [people to do] it " as Swedishfish says, but I know it's going to happen. As there is no legal obligation for those people to follow concerning giving the Modder credit, the only recourse a modder has to keep this from happening is a patent. All inventors know this. All modders on this forum know this. It's a known risk they take when they publish and they do it willingly.

I'm not saying it's right or it should be this way but I do know people in this industry are going to do these things no matter what you or I say. This industry is a one that is growing very fast and everyone wants to get into the act. People will use any idea they can get thier hands on to make a buck off of. Your feelings or mine will not stop this, therefore if a modder is serious about his idea not being used for profit, he must do whats legal to protect himself and his invention.

We tend to want to contribute these ideas to help people and thats good it should be so but at the same time we cannot say just because we posted something to help someone that we expect someone to treat it as such, respect that spirit and not use our ideas. Thats unrealistic in the big dog eat dog world we live in. People simply will ignore your wishes. That's why patent laws are made. Thats why they have to be used. It's for the best in the long run for everyone concerned.

You guys replied to my post as if I'm the bad guy running around using everyone's ideas, when I was simply stating the reality of the situation. Adult modders really should know better. They could copy write their ideas but this offers little protection on the content of the mod itself.

I agree that no production model e-cig that's based on a DIY Mod should be so overpriced it's unrealistic. We can't stop this pratice, we can choose not to purchase. For any type of production model e-cig you wish to buy there will always be a more resonably priced version someplace else if you just look enough. Many of these production models do have improvments over the modders design and machining tools are very expensive if good quality materials are used. Sometimes when you add all this up, the price is justified.

 

[Kirbysmusclecar]

I build my own mods. My last little jem cost all of $2.20 to build.

The SB is looking all neglected and rejected sitting on the book shelf.

BTW, you can get a VV from MadVapes for $35.00.
Cost me about $15.00 or so to build mine, so I would say their mark up is about right.

yes building your own mods is the best!!! If you can not build them, then they will come from madvapes lol!!

 

[carpedebass]

I don't think it makes me immature to want to buy myself a nice mod if thats what I choose to spend my money on then so be it, if you choose not to spend money on a mod then thats fine too.

Absolutely agree!! I wasn't saying that folks that DO spend more money on PVs are immature. Sorry...that was not my intent. I was speaking of MY own personal maturity (or lack thereof as the case may be.) If having a PV that costs that much makes your world go 'round, then by all means...more power to ya'! I think it's great that folks purchase those high end mods. It's part of what makes the vaping world what it is. But you won't be catching me spending that kind of money on a PV. Regardless of how often some people tell me I haven't a clue.

 

[Tri]

I think it's great that folks purchase those high end mods. It's part of what makes the vaping world what it is.

its also what drives innovation imo

 

[carpedebass]

its also what drives innovation imo

VERY true!!!

 

[Semiretired]

A lot said and a lot to comment on, but just to keep it simple.

With mods you can a plastic mod that you build yourself for about $10 or a custom honed stainless steel mod. Both took innovation and time to build. I could not of figured out how to build a box mod from scratch for $10 (now I can - there are directions) and I also could not of figured out how to take a steel pipe and turn it into a ecig (still could not even with directions - do not have the tools or the know how to use those tools).

I do not like the idea of a plastic mod for myself, but I also cannot afford on my budget a $200+ mod. So I am in the middle. I plan on buying a mod in the future - I have looked at several ($80 - $120) and I may build a plastic mod just to see if I can (I will use it, but probably only a little just because I made it).

I live by my needs and my wants. My needs/wants are within my budget so I get everything I need/want so to speak. Sometimes I have to wait for them, but it makes it sweeter once I get there. What one person wants may be another persons need. Everyone is unique and that is what makes us special. We do not want everyone to be the same - just think how boring the world would be...

If a person spends one, two, or even four hours honing and building a mod then he should get paid for those hours, plus the overhead and living costs that go with them. You want to get paid for your work and they need to get paid for theirs. To say it is over priced means you need to research the costs of the equipment, education, overhead, and business costs to run that industry specific business. There is a lot involved and it is not cheap.

Carpedebass cannot bring himself to spend $200+ dollars on a mod (neither can I) because it does not fall in with his want/need levels, but I would bet he spent that much and maybe more on his bass guitar and associated equipment. We all have computers or we would not be on the net. How many are accessing this site with a 286 processor based laptop? "None". I spent more than $200 for my laptop, but I would not spend that much on a cell phone. Up until last month I was still using a 10 year old $10 Nextel cell phone with text and talk only - it was still on its original battery so I said why not. It still allowed me to say "Hello" and I could send and receive text - that was enough for me. I miss it - the keyboard stopped working, but the battery was still going strong... "Anybody want a 10 year old Samsung / Nextel style battery (lol)???

Well off my band wagon - did not want to make this two long... Just wanted to make a couple of points...

 

[carpedebass]

Carpedebass cannot bring himself to spend $200+ dollars on a mod (neither can I) because it does not fall in with his want/need levels, but I would bet he spent that much and maybe more on his bass guitar and associated equipment.

Well said! I just dropped over $700 on a gun. Couldn't bring myself to buy the $3000 dollar one though...

 

[swedishfish]

I wrote,

" That's the beauty of living in America. If you want to protect your design you get a patent on it. If not and you publish it on a forum where anyone can see it, It's open season for anyone who wants to copy that mod. This is the way it works. No credit given is needed. The Modder relinquishes his claim to the design when he posts it publicly without a patent.
I cannot feel sorry for anyone who cries because someone stole his idea and did not take the steps to protect it properly. "

ChaosAffect writes in reply,


swedishfish writes in reply,


I see it all the time not just in the Modders forums but invention forums all over the net. The information on how to make the mod from DIY items is still out there. The intent for that design as written by the mod, to help people did not change. I would not take someones idea and profit from it out of respect ( at least without getting permission for said purpose) but other people will. This is spomething that is known and happens all the time. I don't "expect [people to do] it " as Swedishfish says, but I know it's going to happen. As there is no legal obligation for those people to follow concerning giving the Modder credit, the only recourse a modder has to keep this from happening is a patent. All inventors know this. All modders on this forum know this. It's a known risk they take when they publish and they do it willingly.

I'm not saying it's right or it should be this way but I do know people in this industry are going to do these things no matter what you or I say. This industry is a one that is growing very fast and everyone wants to get into the act. People will use any idea they can get thier hands on to make a buck off of. Your feelings or mine will not stop this, therefore if a modder is serious about his idea not being used for profit, he must do whats legal to protect himself and his invention.

We tend to want to contribute these ideas to help people and thats good it should be so but at the same time we cannot say just because we posted something to help someone that we expect someone to treat it as such, respect that spirit and not use our ideas. Thats unrealistic in the big dog eat dog world we live in. People simply will ignore your wishes. That's why patent laws are made. Thats why they have to be used. It's for the best in the long run for everyone concerned.

You guys replied to my post as if I'm the bad guy running around using everyone's ideas, when I was simply stating the reality of the situation. Adult modders really should know better. They could copy write their ideas but this offers little protection on the content of the mod itself. I agree that no production model e-cig that's based on a DIY Mod should be so overpriced it's unrealistic. We can't stop this pratice, we can choose not to purchase. For any type of production model e-cig you wish to buy there will always be a more resonably priced version someplace else if you just look enough. Many of these production models do have improvments over the modders design and machining tools are very expensive if good quality materials are used. Sometimes when you add all this up, the price is justified.

Go read your whole post again. Not only do you scoff at the guy who was upset because someone used his ideas and didn't credit him, you wrapped a flag around it.

You've expanded on it a bit just now, but that's not what your original post said.

Doesn't matter if people do it all the time. It's not the right thing to do. It's probably in that "What I should have learned in Kindergarden" book. We're a community or at least I think we are. If someone goes through the trouble to tell you how to clean a carto, or make a mod, credit the person. It's not hard. It doesn't hurt. You don't even have to lift your lazy a** out of the chair to do it.

 

[Semiretired]

By the logic of not copying (you call it stealing) then we should all only be driving Ford's - right? That we should only drink Coke? These were copyrighted and things that get copyrighted get copied all the time - without waiting for the copyrights to expire. All you have to do is to figure out how to do it slightly differently (hopefully improved) and bang you are in business.

I am not sure who invented the first ecig, but would everyone want to vape on that one. They figured out the mix, delivery system, etc. - did someone copy them???

I do not believe in copying - so do not get me wrong, but innovative improvements come from copying a basic idea and then improving on it. It is true with cars, cell phones, tvs, guitars, etc...

There is a lot of freeware out there on the web. You are not allowed to copy it and market it as is, but a lot of new software comes from something that was a neat freeware originally...

It just happens... The only thing that copyrighting protects is your configuration - not the basic concept...