FDA Extremely well done (and not yet available) FDA comment

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dragonpuff

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Another good example is Raylan Givens, on Justified -- he's a US Marshal, and generally just trying to do his job -- but he'll shoot anyone down in a heartbeat, if they give him the slightest reason to do so. Hence the show's name -- if he's Justified, he'll shoot you.

Andria

(Conversely -- Boyd is a bad guy, no question, but a very sympathetic bad guy, and Raylan's old friend -- even though they often have serious issues!)

I have never seen that show... but I have been watching plenty of Game of Thrones lately and there's tons of examples in that show! Almost every character is a good/evil mix to the point where you can't predict what someone's going to do just because it's right or wrong :D

Yet, despite how illogical it is, so many people in our society make that mistake of categorizing everything into good or bad and then get confused when things aren't that simple. This also explains why so many of our legislators are taking one side or the other on this issue - they're either pro-vaping or anti-vaping, because they don't think being middle-of-the-road is going to earn them any votes. In other words, that's why our ANTZ are so ANTZy :unsure:
 

Kent C

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I wonder how many "picture of health" people out there who are against vapers?

Go to Golden Corral at lunchtime, LOL. Most heart attacks waiting to happen.

Out of all the anti health vices out there; smoking, overweight, really fat, alcoholism, baking in the sun with oil coated body, etc, I choose vaping as my vice. If my children have a vice I would hope it's vaping.

Everything in life has risks or side effects. Even oxygen. Read any insert that comes with a medication. Vaping is not known at this point to have a list of side effects that need a whole page of risks. Vaping has actually improved the health of ex-smokers immensely. Isn't that what it's all about? Can anyone think of ONE positive effect from smoking?

All the positive effects of nicotine are also the positive effects of smoking. There are quite a few.
 

zoiDman

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When you can't breathe! (says the 39 yr smoker who's had asthma for the last 30!) :D

Andria

Yeah... All those "Positive" effects seemed to get Outweighed when I started to Cough Up and Spit Out Sidewalk Oysters. And all it took to get me Winded was Two Flights of Stairs.
 

AndriaD

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Yeah... All those "Positive" effects seemed to get Outweighed when I started to Cough Up and Spit Out Sidewalk Oysters. And all it took to get me Winded was Two Flights of Stairs.

Heh... we lived in a townhouse apartment for about 11 yrs; when we first moved there, everytime I'd go up the stairs, I'd have to sit down and rest at the top. That lasted about 6 months before I was used to them and could do them without having to take a rest at the top. Of course, when we moved there is when I made the vow to my family not to smoke in the house any longer; before that, I had been at about 3pks a day. Taking it outdoors meant an immediate reduction to 2 pks.

Andria
 

zoiDman

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Tell me something I don't know. ;)

That Decaffeinated Coffee is 98% Caffeine Free, but Regular Coffee is 96% Caffeine Free?

I'm Sorry Ken. But it is Going to take a Very Convincing Argument to get me thinking that Smoking Cigarettes and the words "Positive Effects" should be used in the Same Sentence.
 

Kent C

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That Decaffeinated Coffee is 98% Caffeine Free, but Regular Coffee is 96% Caffeine Free?

I'm Sorry Ken. But it is Going to take a Very Convincing Argument to get me thinking that Smoking Cigarettes and the words "Positive Effects" should be used in the Same Sentence.

Nicotine has positive effects. Nicotine is in cigarettes. D'uh.
 

zoiDman

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Heh... we lived in a townhouse apartment for about 11 yrs; when we first moved there, everytime I'd go up the stairs, I'd have to sit down and rest at the top. That lasted about 6 months before I was used to them and could do them without having to take a rest at the top. Of course, when we moved there is when I made the vow to my family not to smoke in the house any longer; before that, I had been at about 3pks a day. Taking it outdoors meant an immediate reduction to 2 pks.

Andria

I rode 42 Miles day before yesterday in just Under 2 Hours 20 Minutes.

If I had to Ride 42 Miles in 2009, it would have taken me Twice that Long. And 2 Days to Recover. Hell, I Couldn't Drive 42 Miles without Smoking a Cigarette in 2009.

It's Like Night and Day.

Telling me that Smoking has Positive Effects is Like Telling me getting Shot in the Gut 4 Times Is Positive Compared to being Shot in the Gut 6 Times
 
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AndriaD

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I can bear witness to some positive effects from smoking cigarettes. After my appendectomy, I had the most godawful ........, it just wouldn't stop; the surgeon said it was because of my IBS. I went back to smoking 6 days after the appendectomy, and within 3 days, the ........ was completely GONE. Even though nicotine stimulates peristalsis of the colon, the whole 'alkaloid cocktail' actually soothed my guts into calmness. And even though I ended up having to take antibiotics for a secondary infection of one of my incisions, I was still smoking, so my agitated guts stayed relatively calm.

Of course it only took a week of smoking again, after 3+ months of not smoking, before I was coughing up again and grabbing that inhaler before my feet even hit the floor in the morning, so I knew I had to get back off the stupid things ASAP.

Andria
 

Kent C

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Salt has Positive Effects Also. Salt in Rat Poison. D'uh

Sub-Set Inclusion just Isn't Cutting for me. Not from where I was Health Wise when I Smoked. To where I am Today.

Just because you keep posting doesn't mean you didn't lose the argument twice now :laugh:

I was responding, quite truly, to the comment made by another poster. There are a lot of positive effects to smoking and it deals primarily with nicotine although the smoke is also a factor. If it were not, then patches and gum would work. One gets the positive effects of nicotine for decades. The Rat doesn't get the positive effects of salt that long.

You Get the Last Word, Once Again.
 

zoiDman

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Just because you keep posting doesn't mean you didn't lose the argument twice now :laugh:

I was responding, quite truly, to the comment made by another poster. There are a lot of positive effects to smoking and it deals primarily with nicotine although the smoke is also a factor. If it were not, then patches and gum would work. One gets the positive effects of nicotine for decades. The Rat doesn't get the positive effects of salt that long.

You Get the Last Word, Once Again.

Whow Hoo. I Win!

USA - USA - USA - USA

(BTW - Did I Mention I Hate Cigarettes? And that the Negative Effects Far Outweigh the "Potential" effects.)
 

Jman8

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This statement tells me that you are part of the problem that we are facing as a community. The logic you point to is that inflation of the tobacco-related-death statistics is benign because it is for the good of the people that the statistics are being misrepresented to.

We all know that tobacco is bad for you, but the statistics are what give the viewer a frame of reference in which to make their decision to use or not us the product. The logic that allows the statistics to be inflated steal away the right of the individual to make an informed choice. Of course, this is all done for their "own good".

We've determined that tobacco is bad for you, and, even after we informed people of that, they failed to yield to our caution, so they couldn't possibly know what is best for them. We gave them the opportunity to make a choice and they chose incorrectly, so now we have no choice but to force their hand.

It starts with "benign" lies, and ends with out-right bans. Michael Bloomberg tried telling the people of New York that large sodas were bad for their health, but they failed to yield to his superior wisdom.

These lies are not without their consequences. We decided as a culture that cigarettes are bad for you. Exactly how bad, I don't think any of us can say at this point because of how the facts and statistics have been twisted. Still, we know they are "bad", and, still, people like them, so we've had to twist the facts in an attempt to convince the sheep how serious we are when we say they are bad.

If you ask the average person, smoker or non, why cigarettes are so bad for you, they'll say "because they contain nicotine". And, if you ask them why nicotine is so bad, they'll say "it causes cancer". This, of course, is not true, but the goal of the benevolent liars was to goad people into staying away from tobacco products for their own good. The unintended consequence is that people who still wish to use nicotine continue using cigarettes, instead of one of smokeless alternatives, because they don't think they're any safer.

How many fewer smokers would there be if we had been honest about chew, or, even better, snus? Forget how many people actually die from smoking, I want to know how many people have died because they never switched to a smokeless nicotine vehicle because of the lies they were told. Their blood is on the hands of the benevolent liars.

IMO, smoking, like everything else is actually neutral and is given meaning by the individual (mostly) and by the population / general consensus (though indirectly).

I have never understood the benefit for lying about smoking. And enjoy pointing out that the lying has the opposite of the intended effect. I noted this point in my FDA comments but didn't elaborate on it because of the audience. Yet, I am convinced that telling the public, and kids for sure, to not vape will guarantee that people will vape, and will relish going to the black market to do so. And the lies just add icing to the proverbial cake as the ACTUAL gateway. As in, "if they lied to me about vaping, then what else have they lied about? Smoking perhaps?"

The first and second time that I quit smoking cold turkey, I found it most helpful to weigh the pros and cons about smoking, so that I would have understanding of what am I giving up and what am I (possibly) gaining. I had second list that was made from the first which listed "anticipated pros for not smoking" which came from the cons listed for smoking. I realize this list is personal, as it was intended to be, but I'm compelled to share that in this thread though am doing this off top of my head as that list is now more than a decade old.

Pros for smoking
- helps relax, ease stress
- social aspect, enjoy smoking with smokers
- keeps me motivated, something to look forward to hourly/daily
- in an odd way, keeps me resilient. Little health problems are treated as very minor.
- helps with focus at times
- can at times help with digestive issues, though is rare
- taking breaks outside has me enjoy a meditative/contemplative state of mind

Cons with smoking
- heavy use quickly manifests health concerns (incessant cough, wheezing, low energy)
- fairly expensive habit, about $10 a day
- long term health risks, my parents had smoking related health issues, thus greater personal concern
- smell permeates house, clothes, car
- cravings can detract from many social situations, pre-occupied with when I'll have my next smoke
- slight fear that I'll burn something with my lit cigarette
- stigma of being an addict, sometimes leads to low self esteem
- stigma of being a smoker, many places/people discriminate against smokers

That's about what my list back in the day looked like. And for life of me, I don't get why that sort of list isn't what is shared with 'potential smokers,' allowing them to make up their own mind when hearing honest pros and actual cons (from actual smoker) rather than rely on statistics, which often seem couched in deception.

I would note that with vaping in the picture my pros/cons list would easily be updated. But also wish to note that now that I am a non-heavy smoker (and instead a moderate smoker), my cons list would be far shorter.

The idea that the lies are justified is simply the stuff that hilarious hypocrisy is made of. I've noticed that WILL come back and bite you. Honesty isn't just the best policy, it's the only policy that actually works.

I've also noticed that the puritanism that comes from this lying for the greater good and justification for bans beats whatever the olden days came up with in terms of puritanism. I think the 1400's puritan would be in awe of the 2000's puritan.
 

Jman8

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I think this is because people in our society have an innate desire for simple answers, as well as belief in a dichotomy between "good" and "bad". In our culture we have been trained to believe there is a clear separation between black and white (this is not true for many other cultures). So if you tell the public that a certain thing is good in moderation under certain circumstances but is best minimized under other circumstances, you'll generate confusion. If instead, you say that something is "GOOD" but another thing is "BAD", people will latch onto the idea because it makes more sense to them.

A good example of this cultural dichotomy are the fairy tales and stories many of us heard growing up. Watch the lion king with this in mind - the good guys are always pure and good at heart, while the bad guys do nothing but evil things all the time. You never see the good guys do something evil intentionally and justify it, nor do you see the bad guys have a temporary change of heart and do something nice for someone. In many of these tales, they even go so far as to make the good guys attractive and the bad guys ugly!

So the end result is a bunch of grown ups who split everything, and everyone, into the categories of "good" or "bad". It will take a massive cultural shift over a few generations to change this perception.

I think this is a really well made point. It does explain the general perception of why smoking is painted in the collective 'bad' light that it routinely is. Dare say anything positive about smoking/smokers and you'll have people staring at you blankly, as if you just recommended pacifism as way to deal with terrorism.

Your words on fairytales made me think of the movie "Wreck It Ralph" which I thought handled the dichotomy in a rather ingenious way. Film noir also does this but is never aimed at kids in the stories it tells.
 
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