FDA FDA 3/13/19 Press Announcement

[Opinionated]

Back in the day I quit smoking the old fashioned way and relapsed 10 years later. I've heard of that with others. It can't happen to me again because vaping is an entirely superior experience. (Did I forget to mention that it's also free for practicacl purposes?)

Provided you will be able to continue to vape, then no it won't be able to happen to you again.

In my neighborhood there are Wild Bill tobacco shops. Won't the entire Juul product line continue to be available there?

Of course the answer is yes for shops that carry Juul to begin with, but does every neighborhood even have a vape shop?

We've only had a vape shop in my town for about two years now, and there is only one - whereas there are many gas stations.

Part of what led to Juuls success on the market was accessibility where cigarettes were sold.

That is also part of what led many smokers to initially pick up vaping, or consider it as an alternative in the first place.

[I'm reading references to "flavored products". By that are they saying that the 2021 deadline will only apply to liquids and hardware with liquid built in, like Juul?

No. That deadline applies to any eliquid sold that is a flavor other than tobacco or menthol. Any. Eliquid. Sold. (in any form)

Another thing I wonder about, the FDA wants eliquids to be in locations where children can't enter or in a separate area of a location where children can't enter. In my neighborhood virtually all gas stations have glass walls between the customer and cashier areas. The cigarettes are always behind the cashiers, out of reach. Doesn't that meet the standard?

No. The FDA has pulled all flavored e-liquids out of all convenience stores, because minors are allowed to walk into the same building.

As far as I can tell Juul pods aren't in gas stations because of an action by Juul, not a new rule from the FDA.

Juul pulled their pods in advance of the FDA ruling, (now in effect) to make sure their public image said they care, instead of waiting for the FDA to force their hand.

As a beside, Gottlieb is recommending they pull all pods off the market in late 2019, if teen use "continues to rise".

FDA progress is so glacial I wonder if they wish congress would clarify their authority before they start real enforcement. I read an article to the effect that the interim FDA comissioner says he knows Gottlieb's approach and supports it. Gottlieb says he is happy with his replacement. Summing up, are the FDA and Trump administration more on our side than it appears sometimes?

Only time will tell..

The most puzzling thing to me is the apathy of most vapers, who won't speak out or stockpile, considering how easy and inexpensive they are.

I agree.

 

[Rossum]

In my neighborhood there are Wild Bill tobacco shops. Won't the entire Juul product line continue to be available there?

Hard to say. I stopped in to my local vape shop up in PA between Christmas and New Years, and chatted with the owner for a while. I've known the guy for almost five years. I don't buy much from him anymore, but he understands why and doesn't mind. Anyway, he's got the full line of Juul pods, but doesn't think he's going to keep it. He said Juul is planning to implement some sort system that requires anyone selling the full line to scan the ID of the buyer for each and every sale the retailer makes, and he's not willing to do that. Now of course, if this happens, it's Juul going above and beyond the FDA's requirements, but given the beating they've taken in the media, I can't really blame them. If Juul really does this, how many dedicated vape or tobacco shops will decide that continuing to sell Juul isn't worth the hassle?

The most puzzling thing to me is the apathy of most vapers, who won't speak out or stockpile, considering how easy and inexpensive they are.

It is by no means cheap to stockpile Juul pods.

In my neighborhood virtually all gas stations have glass walls between the customer and cashier areas.

Sounds like you live in a rough neighborhood.

 

[Opinionated]

Hard to say. I stopped in to my local vape shop up in PA between Christmas and New Years, and chatted with the owner for a while. I've known the guy for almost five years. I don't buy much from him anymore, but he understands why and doesn't mind. Anyway, he's got the full line of Juul pods, but doesn't think he's going to keep it. He said Juul is planning to implement some sort system that requires anyone selling the full line to scan the ID of the buyer for each and every sale the retailer makes, and he's not willing to do that. Now of course, if this happens, it's Juul going above and beyond the FDA's requirements, but given the beating they've taken in the media, I can't really blame them. If Juul really does this, how many dedicated vape or tobacco shops will decide that continuing to sell Juul isn't worth the hassle?

Ohhh... wow. That's crazy!

Yeah even if I dearly loved juul products I wouldn't do that!

wow..

 

[stols001]

My hope is that we are not representative of the vaping market any more at least in some areas. I mean, I used to use loose tobacco tubes and an injector machine.... Because it was so much cheaper. Folks who do that are such a (comparatively) small market the taxes were really not much at all.

That is what I hope happens with batteries, coils, flavors, etc.

If Juul has the market share it has... Well I defend to the death the right of Juul vapers to get what they want but I ALSO know that I am the type of person who, if they cannot get something at a reasonable price, I will find alternatives. Like, for a while I was importing Russian Marlboros (so much BETTER too, BT saves the good tobacco for export) and etc.

So I hope they go after the "big money" and then the lemmings pay the tax, and those who are saying "Merde to you" government come and join us. Etc. There will be enough folks who don't think to investigate to keep the government happy.

Perhaps I sound insensitive but when I run into a big tobacco vaper I do TRY to inform them what is happening and could happen, etc.

Anna

 

[sofarsogood]

Hard to say. I stopped in to my local vape shop up in PA between Christmas and New Years, and chatted with the owner for a while. I've known the guy for almost five years. I don't buy much from him anymore, but he understands why and doesn't mind. Anyway, he's got the full line of Juul pods, but doesn't think he's going to keep it. He said Juul is planning to implement some sort system that requires anyone selling the full line to scan the ID of the buyer for each and every sale the retailer makes, and he's not willing to do that. Now of course, if this happens, it's Juul going above and beyond the FDA's requirements, but given the beating they've taken in the media, I can't really blame them. If Juul really does this, how many dedicated vape or tobacco shops will decide that continuing to sell Juul isn't worth the hassle?
It is by no means cheap to stockpile Juul pods.
Sounds like you live in a rough neighborhood.

Vape speciality shops are never going to be too fond of closed systems. Most of them make most of their money on juice lines. That's not so true for tobacco shops that sell every tobacco related product. In fact I'm more inclined to recommend the tobaccco shops than the vape shops to newbies.

I don't think it's practial to stockpile any atomizer that's not rebuildable or mod without a replaceable battery. I have a couple of pod systems I'll enjoy as long as they are available but I won't be trying to stockpile them.

I live in SE Michigan near Detroit. In something like 9 months to a year recreational weed will become legal in Michigan (which holds no interest for me BTW). I believe the root cause of crime here is the drug trade. I believe putting the drug dealers out of business by crushing the price would help. Legalizing drugs does that.

 

[marianna]

.........I know I've read at least one report here of someone's relative (niece, I think) who fits the latter category and she's royally ...... that she can't get her favored mango Juul pods at such stores anymore.

Huh? A Juul pod, like a Minifit as well, can be filled with any juice, if not too high VG.

but I find the Minifit easier to fill:
https://youtu.be/uVqKy6-1XYQ?t=185

 

[Bill Godshall]

The FDA's draft Guidance violates Section 906 (d) (3) (A) (i) of the 2009 Tobacco Control Act that prohibits DHHS/FDA from banning "the sale of any tobacco product in face-to-face transactions by a specific category of retail outlets".
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-111publ31/pdf/PLAW-111publ31.pdf
(see bottom of page 22).

I informed large vapor manufacturers, retailers and trade associations of this clause in the TCA
(who are contemplating legal challenges to FDA's action) after Gottlieb first stated that he had imposed this flavored vapor sales ban (back in November).

FDA's draft Guidance also imposes new regulations without going through the formal federal rulemaking process (as FDA didn't propose a new regulation or an ANPRM).

Just two weeks ago, all flavored JUUL and Mark Ten vapor products were still being sold at major gas stations
(even though Altria claimed it was ending sales of flavored Mark Tens in November, and then claimed it was ending all Mark Ten sales in December, and even though JUUL announced in November it was ending sales of flavored JUULs from retail stores.

But while most retailers no longer sell flavored JUULs, nearly all large retailers are still selling Mark Ten.

 

[Rossum]

But while most retailers no longer sell flavored JUULs, nearly all large retailers are still selling Mark Ten.

Did the Mark Ten stuff ever sell well? Is it possible this is stock that's been on those retailers' shelves since before Altria decided to stop selling it?

 

[Bill Godshall]

I suspect Altria still has millions of Mark Ten products that they're trying to sell.

Mark Ten never sold well. Altria spent >$750 Million (probably >$1 Billion) since 2013 researching, developing, manufacturing, advertising, promoting and protecting the brand's planned future FDA PMTA and MRTP monopoly from market competition by 99.9% of other vapor products (that are now on the US market).

Probably half of all Mark Ten sales since 2013 were actually redeemed free coupons that Altria gave away to encourage people to try Mark Ten.

Am disappointed that not one news story has exposed that JUUL and Mark Ten were/are still being sold at retail stores three and four months after those companies said they had stopped selling their products. I notified many reporters (who covered the JUUL, Altria, FDA flavored vapor ban announcements) about these ongoing sales during the past two months, but none of them bothered to report it.

 

[Rossum]

Am disappointed that not one news story has exposed that JUUL and Mark Ten were/are still being sold at retail stores three and four months after those companies said they had stopped selling their products. I notified many reporters (who covered the JUUL, Altria, FDA flavored vapor ban announcements) about these ongoing sales during the past two months, but none of them bothered to report it.

I'm confused. A few posts up, you said that the FDA's draft guidance that prohibits such sales violates the TCA and wouldn't be legit in any case because there was no Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. But now it seems you're displeased with the fact that Juul and Altria haven't done enough to pull products off retail shelves in in compliance with illegitimate draft guidance?

 

[WorksForMe]

I'm confused. A few posts up, you said that the FDA's draft guidance that prohibits such sales violates the TCA and wouldn't be legit in any case because there was no Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. But now it seems you're displeased with the fact that Juul and Altria haven't done enough to pull products off retail shelves in in compliance with illegitimate draft guidance?

I don't have a problem with Juul and Altria continuing to sell their products. A large percentage of vapor products sold in vape shops and online were new to the market after 8/16. The FDA should leave Altria and Juul alone if they're not going after all products that are violating the Deeming rules. I think they're overwhelmed by the vapor industry, and are just going after the low hanging fruit.

Of course, if they wanted to, they could take all vapor products that don't have a PMTA off the market, so I'm not going to complain too loudly about anything they do short of that.


.

 

[susieqz]

that federal stuff won't do anything in new mex.
a proposed state 78% tax on hardware n liquids will eliminate vape shops.
there is also a proposed flavor ban.