FDA FDA approved flavours

[Jman8]

Without open, refillable systems the flavor issue is non-existent.

....legally speaking.

Though even with that, the fact remains that they possibly are just regulating closed systems and would have to make an additional proposed regulation for open products, or risk lots and lots of interpretations / business practices that seek to circumvent current written regulations that may be deemed not applicable to that product.

Is a PV, for sure, the same thing as an ecig?

 

[Robert Dupre]

If flavors got banned i would just buy my own flavorings for candies and such that are typically pg based and add it myself.

 

[Lessifer]

....legally speaking.

Though even with that, the fact remains that they possibly are just regulating closed systems and would have to make an additional proposed regulation for open products, or risk lots and lots of interpretations / business practices that seek to circumvent current written regulations that may be deemed not applicable to that product.

Is a PV, for sure, the same thing as an ecig?

I always try to view things from the perspective of the potential vaper, someone who has never been here, or to a vape shop, and is staring at the "tobacco" wall at walgreens. If all they see are cigarettes and cig-a-likes, the chances of them picking up vaping may be diminished, especially if the only flavor choices are what passes for tobacco and menthol. Then, even if there are places to buy open system stuff, you'd get the whole "well that's not FDA approved" arguments. Personally, I'll be fine whatever happens, but I worry about those out there who have yet to find vaping.

 

[DC2]

Personally, I'll be fine whatever happens, but I worry about those out there who have yet to find vaping.

I think that's what most of us who post in this area are worried about.
I wish everyone was worried about that though, but you know how that goes.

 

[AndriaD]

I think the general and pervasive slowness of the gov't to act in anything is really in our favor, here; when I first started visiting one of the B&Ms near me, in February, it was like a ghost town, always; I was usually the only customer in the store. But now? It's like trying to get up to the bar at happy hour! And that seems to be the case with a lot of B&M vape stores, from what I'm hearing around here -- all the "demonizing" the media is doing is serving merely to let people know about this new vaping thing, and they seem to be trying it out and taking to it in DROVES.

So, take your time, fed gov't. By the time you get around to actually doing anything, we'll be much too strong a force to marginalize.

Andria

 

[DC2]

So, take your time, fed gov't. By the time you get around to actually doing anything, we'll be much too strong a force to marginalize.

This is what many have been preaching for years now...
And that includes CASAA and Bill Godshall.

Basically, draw this thing out, and grow our numbers.
But our numbers only matter if we are ready to stand up and be counted.

I continue to hope that we are.

 

[Jman8]

I always try to view things from the perspective of the potential vaper, someone who has never been here, or to a vape shop, and is staring at the "tobacco" wall at walgreens. If all they see are cigarettes and cig-a-likes, the chances of them picking up vaping may be diminished, especially if the only flavor choices are what passes for tobacco and menthol. Then, even if there are places to buy open system stuff, you'd get the whole "well that's not FDA approved" arguments. Personally, I'll be fine whatever happens, but I worry about those out there who have yet to find vaping.

I think vaping is better addressed via word of mouth advertising. I managed to find it without any commercial interests informing me of its existence. Then, like most of us here, I recall spending a good 2 to 4 hours online looking around and finding a lot of information. That was in 2011. I imaging the search today would give someone 2 to 4 weeks of information.

It would be wonderful if eCigs were completely accepted in all retail locations, but I think it is unrealistic. Many vapers won't go there for various (and some good) reasons. If new vaper bought open system at Walgreens for $500 and came to ECF to talk about that, they'd be told immediately they were ripped off, and that there are plenty of other places to get much better equipment for a lot less.

Anyway, don't want to belabor that point, even while I think it is sufficient rebuttal to your latest point.

Flavors will never, ever, be non-existant. It humors me whenever a fellow vaper suggests this.

 

[Lessifer]

I think vaping is better addressed via word of mouth advertising. I managed to find it without any commercial interests informing me of its existence. Then, like most of us here, I recall spending a good 2 to 4 hours online looking around and finding a lot of information. That was in 2011. I imaging the search today would give someone 2 to 4 weeks of information.

It would be wonderful if eCigs were completely accepted in all retail locations, but I think it is unrealistic. Many vapers won't go there for various (and some good) reasons. If new vaper bought open system at Walgreens for $500 and came to ECF to talk about that, they'd be told immediately they were ripped off, and that there are plenty of other places to get much better equipment for a lot less.

Anyway, don't want to belabor that point, even while I think it is sufficient rebuttal to your latest point.

Flavors will never, ever, be non-existant. It humors me whenever a fellow vaper suggests this.

I know a number of smokers who don't even own computers. One of them, I've successfully converted to vaping. There are plenty of smokers who will never look anywhere outside of their favorite gas station. If the only choices readily available at those locations are vuse and mark10, I think vaping loses out. That, of course, is just my opinion though. There is a difference between non-existent and not readily available/easily accessible. Asking a first time vaper to source unflavored liquid, and separate flavoring, then mix them together in the proper ratio is probably asking too much of some people.

 

[skoony]

if the FDA comes down hard on flavoring and i believe they will,
its all over.they got by with it before.
they will ban all but point of sale face to face purchase's of flavoring
with a valid ID. similar to certain to OTC medications.
any if at all internet sales will require an approved application process
similar to a credit application requiring one to avow that one is not going to use
the flavoring in an unapproved manner.
i know this is a very pessimistic outlook. if they do go after flavors they
are going to cover their bases. i think the FDA thinks they are the proverbial
' they' and damn what anyone thinks.

regards
mike

 

[Frenchfry1942]

I saw that being a good example was the best advert. The "word of mouth" is strong. Seeing juice, et al. in a convenience store, I say thanks for having it available. I always say that my doctor approves, my dentist has noticed a big difference and I have no withdrawals. I try to give a positive thought to the benefits. I don't blow in peoples faces or try to stand out, I just go about my business of not smoking and lowering my nic intake.

It is growing.

 

[Jman8]

There is a difference between non-existent and not readily available/easily accessible.

Thanks for making this clear.

We are talking about flavors. Let's say FDA and all local governments are as harsh as some thing they could be on flavors. Do you think flavors would be impossible to get from online sources?

 

[Sundodger]

Thanks for making this clear.

We are talking about flavors. Let's say FDA and all local governments are as harsh as some thing they could be on flavors. Do you think flavors would be impossible to get from online sources?

Having a source for flavors isn't the problem, they will always be available one way or another. The problem is what can be done with the flavors. If open tank systems go bye-bye the only people that could use flavorings would be those of us that already have tanks and know how to rebuild coils. Look at when the FDA banned flavored cigs. How many people used to puff on cherry or other flavored cigs? Plenty. Now that those are banned how many of those people go out and find the flavorings and add it to their smokes to get what they used to like? Very few if any. I haven't done a search but is there any forum available telling people how to do this? If there is I would imagine the powers that be would do everything they can to shut it down.
What's available and what people are willing to do are two very different things. I know how to mix my own e-liquids and have done so to much success the last couple of years. But I'm lazy, don't feel I have the extra time to mix my own right now, so I go to the B&M and pay more that I need to just for the convenience, and I think most people will do the same until there is no choice.
Again, it's the hardware in the future that's the problem, not the flavors. Liquid nicotine may also come under restrictions and that is another problem for those of us who like our nic.

 

[Endor]

Having a source for flavors isn't the problem, they will always be available one way or another. The problem is what can be done with the flavors. If open tank systems go bye-bye the only people that could use flavorings would be those of us that already have tanks and know how to rebuild coils. Look at when the FDA banned flavored cigs. How many people used to puff on cherry or other flavored cigs? Plenty. Now that those are banned how many of those people go out and find the flavorings and add it to their smokes to get what they used to like? Very few if any. I haven't done a search but is there any forum available telling people how to do this? If there is I would imagine the powers that be would do everything they can to shut it down.
What's available and what people are willing to do are two very different things. I know how to mix my own e-liquids and have done so to much success the last couple of years. But I'm lazy, don't feel I have the extra time to mix my own right now, so I go to the B&M and pay more that I need to just for the convenience, and I think most people will do the same until there is no choice.
Again, it's the hardware in the future that's the problem, not the flavors. Liquid nicotine may also come under restrictions and that is another problem for those of us who like our nic.

Totally agree with this. The key is whether the FDA will ban e-liquid sold in a bottle, or force closed prefilled systems.

If bottled e-liquid is legal, then flavor bans don't matter at all. In fact, selling non-flavored e-liquid is cheaper and easier from an application process perspective -- a vendor simply submit applications for 3, 6, 12, 18, 24mg unflavored eliquid in the vendors preferred PG/VG mix, get approval (hopefully), and they are legal to sell.

"Oh, you want a flavor? Well,we can't recommend this, but that vendor over there sells 100+ premixed flavor concentrates that you COULD add to our unflavored juice if you wanted to.... but you're on your own."

A ban on bottled e-liquid (which isn't that far fetched, given the rhetoric on nicotine poisonings as of late) and forcing closed, prefilled systems changes everything. Now, what Sundogger said about flavored cigarettes falls into the picture... unless you're going to jump through all kinds of hoops to flavor a prefilled carto, it's just easier to vape the flavor they give you and (try to) be happy about it.

 

[edyle]

I'm wondering - if the FDA deeming were to go ahead and part of the regulation were to restrict allowable flavouring a la cigarettes (you know... to save the kids), just what flavours exactly would be approved? Tobacco flavoured ejuice is ersatz and no more "natural" than Pluid or Red Bull.

Further, what would stop a vendor from producing a dozen different "tobacco" flavours with different properties, such as ones that tasted like Red Bull or Pluid? How would such a thing be policed?

Alternatively, do we foresee all flavouring being banned, with only refreshing "naked" PG/VG available?

That is exactly what would happen. It would amount to a restriction on advertising/naming/labelling.

 

[Jman8]

Having a source for flavors isn't the problem, they will always be available one way or another.

Thanks. That answers the question I asked.

 

[sofarsogood]

Moving to the penalty phase, I have little doubt that someone sequestered in a government office somewhere is hard at work outlining a framework for this. Allow me to take a stab at it:

Possession of any non-approved flavor shall carry a minimum sentence of 90 days of community service, including no fewer than 30 days of youth counseling, during which time the offending adult will likely be taught by the kids the error of his/her ways. This penalty will be subject to mitigation if the offending flavor includes something like broccoli.
An unapproved 'fruit' flavor shall be penalized with twice (2x) the above sentence, unless the fruit in question contains slimy seeds or exotic names because it's been well-documented that they're icky.
Dessert and custard flavors shall carry a minimum sentence of three (3) months in jail wherein the offender will have to go to bed every night without dessert or custard. That'll teach 'em.
Packaging of products in such a way that we don't like shall be punishable by no less than one year (1 year) of incarceration without paper, pens, or pencils. Prison art classes will also not be allowed during this tenure because we know damn well you'll be drawing stuff of which we don't approve (of), and we don't want you to do that any more.
Questions and comments are welcome from any and all persons or groups who support us.

"Good evening, I'm Don Dumb, your host for tonight's six oclock news. The day's top story, The Plainville Nic Squad raided the home of 85 year old Gladys Finklestein and found her in her basement DIY lab making bubble gum flavored e juice to sell to the neighborhood kids. As she was wrestled out of the house by the police she was heard protesting that she only makes ejuice for herself and vapes bubble gum flavor because she no longer has any teeth to chew the real thing. Several of her great grandchildren were seen in the front yard sobbing uncontrolably as Mrs Finklestein was taken away."

 

[AndriaD]

I wonder if any of you have ever read, or even heard of, this concept called "Civil Disobedience"?

This is the concept I live by, and I think someone around here has a sig line to this effect -- Rossum, I do believe: if a law is just plain stupid, then I will not abide by it; what I do in the privacy of my own home cannot be policed. I've spent the last several months learning this DIY thing just so the idiots in Washington (who is surely rolling in his grave by now) can't touch me with any stupid ideas they may have about flavors. It's true, they possibly could complicate my life and my budget by trying to police nicotine sales -- I'd have to buy patches to get my nicotine, since I'm quite certain they won't do anything to THOSE, it might upset their .... Buddies, BP. And I'm pretty sure it would get them dragged into court to enrich the lawyers a little more, protesting that if nicotine is safe in patches, gum, lozenges, and sprays, it's safe in other ways too. But meanwhile I'd still need my nic, and could get it via patches -- while I continue to vape my homemade 0-nic ejuice in my Kayfun.

It's true, some future smokers may have more problems than we have had to deal with, but I'm pretty sure that those fat-fee-charging lawyers can get it straightened out, eventually -- I bet the ACLU would just love to argue for it, considering that the freedom to save one's own life may be the very definition of "civil liberty." Once something this big and this momentous gets going, there really is no way to stop it -- they can delay it, they can cause problems for it, for a while, but they cannot stop it. And the longer they shillyshally around playing politics, the larger the group of vapers grows. I'm pretty sure that time -- and truth -- and science -- are all on our side, and the glANTZes be damned.

Andria

 

[Bill Godshall]

Papa Lazarou inquired

I'm wondering - if the FDA deeming were to go ahead and part of the regulation were to restrict allowable flavouring a la cigarettes (you know... to save the kids), just what flavours exactly would be approved?

If FDA issues a Final Rule (that is the same or similar to its proposed deeming regulation), >99.9% of e-cig products now on the market would be banned (including all bottles of flavored e-liquid and >95% of flavored cigalikes).

The only e-cig products that would be legally allowed to be sold would be those officially approved by FDA (and the FDA estimated that just 25 e-cig product applications will be submitted annually to the FDA). The most likely (and perhaps only) flavored e-cig products that would be submitted to the FDA would be Altria's MarkTen (tobacco flavor and menthol flavor), Reynolds' Vuse (tobacco flavor and menthol flavor) and Lorillard/Imperial blu (tobacco flavor and menthol flavored).

But since the FDA's proposed deeming regulation would ban >99% of all e-cig products now on the market (including all PVs and all bottles of e-liquid containing nicotine), and since the FDA has NOT proposed banning any flavorings for e-cigs, this thread is a nonsensical waste of everyone's time.

 

[JustMeB]

Papa Lazarou inquired



If FDA issues a Final Rule (that is the same or similar to its proposed deeming regulation), >99.9% of e-cig products now on the market would be banned (including all bottles of flavored e-liquid and >95% of flavored cigalikes).

The only e-cig products that would be legally allowed to be sold would be those officially approved by FDA (and the FDA estimated that just 25 e-cig product applications will be submitted annually to the FDA). The most likely (and perhaps only) flavored e-cig products that would be submitted to the FDA would be Altria's MarkTen (tobacco flavor and menthol flavor), Reynolds' Vuse (tobacco flavor and menthol flavor) and Lorillard/Imperial blu (tobacco flavor and menthol flavored).

But since the FDA's proposed deeming regulation would ban >99% of all e-cig products now on the market (including all PVs and all bottles of e-liquid containing nicotine), and since the FDA has NOT proposed banning any flavorings for e-cigs, this thread is a nonsensical waste of everyone's time.

Well, unless the Grandfather date is changed, correct?

 

[Papa_Lazarou]

this thread is a nonsensical waste of everyone's time.

Really? Disappointing, Bill.

The OP was merely a hypothetical proposition/question, as many threads on ECF are.