Fda crackdown looms

[e-pipeman]

If e-liquid were to be made illegal it would simply have the effect that such prohibitions tend to have - it would drive the manufacture and sale of the liquid into the hands of criminals. Then there would be no regulation of any kind with potentially horrific consequences. No-one wants to buy their e-liquid from a "dealer" - who knows what it will be cut with?

 

[QueenInNC]

I am sorry to be so blunt. It is how I am. But at the end of the day the facts still remain. Lets go down a few of them.

1) Technology from China- This alone raises all sorts of questions. Have we forgotten the Melamine milk scandal? Anyone see the report about pork dumplings sold on the street with cardboard used as filler? Just because they made it and some people use it does not make it safe.

2) Propolyne Glycol- This is a major component of some radiator fluids. That is a fact. While it is presently used in food products ingesting is far different than inhaling. If you are unsure about this try eating a pack of cigarettes and see what happens. More research on inhaling this over long terms is not unreasonable.

3) Vegetable Glycerin- Sounds good on the surface right. What harm could come veggie matter? Well castor bean extract is called ricin and minute amounts will kill you. This is another fact. Apparently if VG is heated enough it too becomes a poison. Atomizers claimed temps being below this do not make me feel comfortable. once again more research is needed.

4) Nicotine- Oh man! Just the mention of this one gets many folks up in arms. If it ain't taxed it's regulated by our ever caring government. This is a drug folks and we will slapped with one or the other. Just because other herbal extracts have survived without being banned or regulated this will not happen with nicotine extract. It is far too well known and chained to the evil known as "Cancer Sticks".

I will continue to play around with this vaping. It's pretty cool and the wife seems to be willing to replace it for analogs. I am the kind some seem to worry about. I actually stopped smoking over 6 months ago and am now vaping nicotine. Sad but true. So perhaps this is a legitimate concern?

I hate to think I am arming the wrong side by talking about this realisticly such as I have. Perhaps this is why many on this board seem so short sighted and opinionated. They are just trying extra hard to protect something potentially very cool. I just don't operate that way.

I would bet any amount of money that vaping is safer than analogs both short and long term. But vaping coming without any health risks whatsoever I highly doubt. Not even taking into account what nicotine does to your health.

I think vaping would really blossom with proper research and marketing but I cringe when I think of the players who want to make that happen. Big lobbies and government are rarely healthy for anyone.

Lorddrek

No one is trying to prove that it is "safe". Just safer as you stated in the previous sentence. If we have the choice to smoke chemical, toxins and tar in analogs, then we should have a say in this. Taxed (regulated) or not, we should have the option somehow. E smoking should be looked at closely and given a chance, IMO. It may save many lives. That is my point. If it pans out that it is more harmful than smoking then so be it. Ban it!

 

[bri1270]

If e-liquid were to be made illegal it would simply have the effect that such prohibitions tend to have - it would drive the manufacture and sale of the liquid into the hands of criminals. Then there would be no regulation of any kind with potentially horrific consequences. No-one wants to buy their e-liquid from a "dealer" - who knows what it will be cut with?

Agreed, which is why I'm all for regulation...not prohibition!

 

[stpeters]

... I truly believe that could be our answer to get past what is coming for our devices, but so many on this forum think that the idea is ridiculous. There are, however, some suppliers/retailers that are already making the change.

Good point. For those that "think that the idea is ridiculous", consider this:
Tobacco & PG (and 'tobacco tea suspended in a PG solution') is not a controlled or illegal substance. Do not compare our devices to "pot" paraphernalia please. It only weakens your case.

Given the above, these items are not drug paraphernalia according to the U.S. Supreme Court when they cited this Eight Circuit ruling:

Case No. 92-903
Section 857(d) - which, among other things, defines "drug paraphernalia" as any equipment "primarily intended or designed for use" with illegal drugs - does not serve as the basis for a subjective intent requirement on the part of the defendant, but merely establishes objective standards for determining what constitutes drug paraphernalia: the "designed for use" element refers to the manufacturer's design, while the "primarily intended . . . for use" standard refers generally to an item's likely use. However, neither this conclusion nor the absence of the word "knowingly" in 857(d)'s text means that Congress intended to dispense entirely with a scienter requirement. Rather, 857(a)(1) is properly construed under this Court's decisions as requiring the Government to prove that the defendant knowingly made use of an interstate conveyance as part of a scheme to sell items that he knew were likely to be used with Page II illegal drugs. It need not prove specific knowledge that the items are "drug paraphernalia" within the statute's meaning.

So yes, electronic cigarette parts are legal to sell as long as they are intended to be used with essence of Tobacco or just flavorings and PG. They are not considered drug paraphernalia. Anything the FDA says to the contrary is a bluff and a bold faced lie.

 

[green-lantern]

I need to stock up!

and one more post so I can quote TT

 

[fatman]

I am sorry to be so blunt. It is how I am. But at the end of the day the facts still remain. Lets go down a few of them.

1) Technology from China- This alone ...

Lorddrek

Excellent points Lorddrek. We can't just hope that by keeping our heads low that we will fly under the radar. All that can happen there is that we will be unprepared when the axe falls.

The truth is that this business would benefit from the studies and perhaps from regulation. The reason there is so much emotion around here is that we don't really know anything. We hope, but don't *know* and knowledge would help legitimize these things if in fact they are safe.

Knowledge is empowering.

 

[The Wiz]

This tactic may end up getting the message and the messenger confused, which could end up disastrous to our cause.

There are lots of things the Fox news bunch and Rush championed that never happened since many will appose anything they say merely on principal. Plus, the right wing already would be mostly sympathetic to us, so it would be preaching to the choir.

Now get someone like Oprah to vouch for this and ask some hard questions of the FDA... that might work.

Oprah.........Damn, that's the ticket...friends with Obama.Sounds like a plan to me!The Wiz!

 

[green-lantern]

The juice is the root of our FDA problem. It is because of the liquid being sold directly with the device that the device is now a part of a "Drug/Device Combination" according to the FDA. I have written on several posts that if the manufacturers would separate the liquid from the device at the point of sale, we could possibly sidestep any real effects that a ban would have. The term "Electronic Cigarette", though, has locked the device to the liquid. Therefore, a name change for the device should also be made to separate its connection to the liquid. A "...." is only a "...." if you market it as something that you put pot in. If you call it a "Water Pipe", and do not give any instruction on what to put in it, then it is just a device (free of illegal intent). I truly believe that could be our answer to get past what is coming for our devices, but so many on this forum think that the idea is ridiculous. There are, however, some suppliers/retailers that are already making the change.

You like my sig?


Good post man!

 

[TribbleTrouble]

Quote:

"Do not compare our devices to "pot" paraphernalia please."

I was not the one who first made the argument to view this issue this way, but it is a valid argument, none the less. By the way, being a realist is one thing, being an apathetic pessimist is something completely different. People on this forum need to stop talking down to other people who are trying to make a difference. You may think you are superior (Just like Bob), but the fact remains that apathetic pessimists never seem to provide any answers to problems. They only seem to point out the obvious (like they are the only one's who can see the obvious). Please help the cause, don't belittle it.

 

[Obi Wan]

Thanks for the post, Sun. Reality is setting in. Anyone who has read extensively on this forum for any length of time knew this was coming.

This is at least the third alarm, however. Before long, it won't be possible to hit the "snooze" button and continue blissful ignorance. Act on your own behalf now.

There's a lot of ignorance in this thread, and a lot of venting. Nowhere is there a sound, logical sequence of arguments to continue the marketing of an unregulated drug of untested purity and content from China. Step back from your e-cig, look dispassionately about our practice and devices -- and you'll see that this isn't some conspiracy to take away freedom, reward lobbyists, assure revenue, etc. It's an agency doing it job. Enforcing protective measures is what the FDA must do.

It knows nothing, and we know nothing, about the real safety of what we're doing. Until that is known, continuing down the unknown path is untenable. I expect harsher measures loom.

I agree,,
the only hope is testing with positive results,and the only hope of testing will be from the bigger money companies that can afford the kind of test that would be approved by the FDA,,
all our postitive reviews and letters can help awareness but without someone like target or njoy funding the right tests the fda and alot of the media will keep answering in a negative way with the fact that there isnt enough proof of the safety of these.
and Tropical Bob is right,, theres no proof of the safety.

yet !

 

[b00stzx3]

Pot=fat soluble (oil)

Nicotine=water soluble

even if you wanted to, E-cigs wouldn't work well at all for THC oil.

 

[2fer]

I really don't want to start an argument, but I don't think TropicalBob's firm grip on the reality of the situation in any way represents a "subservient" attitude.

Seeing a certain inevitability in the government reaction to this new nicotine delivery system is just not the same thing as extreme compliance or abject obedience (subservience).

The sky is not falling. There is money to be made giving people what they want, and the entrepreneurs of the world will provide. The "War on Drugs" has been waged for how many decades now?....and how hard is it to get hold of (insert drug of choice) if you want it?

Worst case scenario I see is a brief interruption in the convenience of our present distribution system as the entrepreneurs adjust...then we all become petty scofflaws. Ever ignored a speed limit you thought was unreasonable?

Also, TB is right on the money when he says the FDA is just doing its job.

When 35 of us drop dead because some guy in China tried to cut his costs by using a toxic filler (remember melamine?) who do you think people will be looking at while screaming "how did this happen"? The FDA knows this. Making a big public fight with the kind of arguments contained in some of the posts here will just cause gov't heels to get very firmly dug in...because they know they are right...and because they know a large segment of the population will agree! If I learned anything from my own activism during the 60's, it is that confrontational politics sucks as a strategy unless/until a good chunk of the population is with you.

Remember the line from War Games? The only way to win is to not play the game. Sooo...chill out, stock up and get ready to fly under the radar.

 

[NewcastleB]

Looks like I'm the only one to have problems with Lorddrek's post.

"1) Technology from China- This alone raises all sorts of questions...Just because they made it and some people use it does not make it safe."

I haven't heard anybody say ecigs are safe because they are made in China. I've heard a lot of opponents say just the opposite. That ecigs must be dangerous because they are made in China. Well so are half the ingredients in prescription and OTC medications sold in this country. The fact that these things are made in China is just a scare tactic. And BTW, I'm not a fan of Chinese products and would buy American if I could, but It doesn't mean that all Chinese products are bad.

"2) Propolyne[sic] Glycol- This is a major component of some radiator fluids. That is a fact." Yes as you say "That is a fact". It is a major component in the new low toxic radiator fluid. By saying it's Antifreeze you're implying that it's the same stuff we've been warned about being super toxic. This is just another scare tactic. Hell, water is a radiator fluid. Should we be worried about it just because it goes in our radiators. I've also read that PG is a component in a non-aerosol asthma inhaler being sold in Ireland. I doubt they'd be adding antifreeze to there inhalers.

I'm not going to hit on number 3 because I haven't really done a lot of research into Glycerin. But I have to say equating it to ricin is way over the top. And I think you're spot on with your nicotine comments.

I don't want anyone to think I'm saying these things are safe, but they aren't the kiss of death because they are made in China with a major component of radiator fluid. And I don't think Lorddrek is being the voice of reason buy offering dubious evidence.

 

[GrimmGreen]

you know... this is exactly why i'm libertarian

 

[SilverBraids]

Just for the record, it's ethylene glycol that is antifreeze. It tastes nasty. I was a mechanic in the Army for 4 1/2 years. I should know. 8^)

 

[fatman]

I haven't heard anybody say ecigs are safe because they are made in China....

Not to speak for Lorddrek, but that is not the argument. The argument is that since Chinese industry is largely poorly unregulated the fact that these things are made there increases the liklihood that some untoward or unknown substance will find their way into the juice or coil is greater thna in a regulated industry.

The problem is that China has an unfortunate and documentable track record here and to ignore it is to invite problems.

 

[Flitzanu]

i'm sorry, i've read most of the 5 pages so far but have to get back to work

one thing i don't see mentioned, or maybe missed, is that what if this FDA attack is on BRANDED items? the article is about a company in Florida...

lets say, for arguments sake and brevity, there are two types of product here, and no insult or offense intended toward either, just using these as a named example.

you've got, say, Njoy...a company, with a brand, that is selling items retail in stores and chains, and as mentioned, widely known and seen by the public.

then you have, say, puresmoker.com who sells similar items (as far as function, not form) but isn't "branded" with a name or sold retail or in chains like Njoy.

am i making sense so far?

puresmoker is, with my ignorance and lack of better language, reselling items to us that are made to specifications from a website. again, not belittling. if someone asks me, "hey what is that?" i can say "oh it's a m401 vaporizer" or i can say "oh it's the Pilot from Puresmoker" but all in all, it's not a branded item and doesn't have visible association with "puresmoker" in the same way as "njoy" does as a brand name.

hopefully this is making sense, it feels jumbled, i don't want this misconstrued.

what i'm saying is, is it possible for the FDA and govt to be singling out these big companies that are marketing them IN MALLS and stores, and chains...as being cessation devices, and are they going to leave people alone like steve at puresmoker because it's just a website and reselling items from another country?

or are they going to scan the whole web...and all manufacturers and resellers...and attempt to block all of them and stop every sale and shipment possible?

it seems a little unlikely that everything can be controlled that well.

just a few years ago...Absinthe was illegal in the states. but...i could hop online and order a real bottle from another country and have it shipped over here no problem, even though it couldn't be sold in teh US.

if it comes to that, that the FDA only controls the US and we are allowed to purchase overseas...so be it.

just a thought though, who knows, i was just making an observation on a small point that doesn't seem to be making any light in the convo about it being "a company in florida."

 

[TropicalBob]

To whom it may concern:

When considering the electronic cigarette, please consider these facts:

1. The e-cig, as it's popularly known, was invented in China in 2004 and has been marketed since that time. In the past year, hundreds of thousands of smokers around the world have purchased and used e-cigs, to either quit an addictive cigarette habit or use an e-device in place of cigarettes.

2. Not one headline-making health event has been reported about e-smokers. With all the present users, if e-cigs presented any imminent danger, that danger should have surfaced by now. None has.

3. The device is simple and not prone to dangerous malfunction. It is far safer than even fire-safe cigarettes.

4. The liquid is a mix, often containing nicotine, along with propylene glycol to produce vapor and carry the nicotine content. Propylene glycol was tested more than half-century ago for inhalation by mice, primates and humans. No harmful effects were found in studies. Indeed, propylene glycol was a "germ-killing vapor" that protected those inhaling it from deadly diseases.

5. Nicotine, in the amounts used for e-smoking, has a physiological effect similar to that of consuming a moderate amount of caffeine. It is a stimulant/relaxant. It has both known benefits and hazards. The amount of nicotine consumed while e-smoking is far less than that consumed by smoking a tobacco cigarette, however. E-smoking is thus less unhealthy if direct comparisons are made to cigarettes.

6. The e-cig came to market without regulation on the assumption by manufacturers that it was a safe product not needing regulation. Nothing since 2004 has proven that assumption erroneous. Real-world use of e-cigs, in fact, supports the accuracy of that assumption. These are both safe and effective, as proven by the hundreds of thousands of present users.

Considering these facts and the almost certain fact that e-smoking is safer than tobacco use, the devices and liquids should remain available for those seeking an alternative to tobacco cigarettes, while further study on the need for regulation is undertaken.

Sincerely ....

Now, a form letter won't do much of anything, so anyone desiring to be heard on e-smoking needs to make relevant points in their own letter. No finger-pointing of conspiracy (that FDA Nazi pix will sure win 'em over!!!). Be rational, recognize their right and mission to oversee this country's drug market, and hope the present situation will be allowed as more studies are undertaken.

That's what I'd say.

 

[lee929]

FYI, The cardboard used in buns as filler was a false report, the reporter was arrested shortly after he broke the story.

I am sorry to be so blunt. It is how I am. But at the end of the day the facts still remain. Lets go down a few of them.

1) Technology from China- This alone raises all sorts of questions. Have we forgotten the Melamine milk scandal? Anyone see the report about pork dumplings sold on the street with cardboard used as filler? Just because they made it and some people use it does not make it safe.

 

[deewal]

Quote:

"Do not compare our devices to "pot" paraphernalia please."

I was not the one who first made the argument to view this issue this way, but it is a valid argument, none the less. By the way, being a realist is one thing, being an apathetic pessimist is something completely different. People on this forum need to stop talking down to other people who are trying to make a difference. You may think you are superior (Just like Bob), but the fact remains that apathetic pessimists never seem to provide any answers to problems. They only seem to point out the obvious (like they are the only one's who can see the obvious). Please help the cause, don't belittle it.

Stop flaming people. If you don't want to face reality that's your concern.
Now go get your Banner and stand outside The White House. I'm sure everybody's faith in Saint Obama will be justified.

I have written some books and articles and I do book editing as a side job... but Tropical Bob is the most well written and respected of us all.. that is why there are a few threads where we nominate him as the "honorary leader" lol

I don't think anybody in their right mind would want to represent the views of many people in this thread.

The Government of the USA will do whatever it want's to do and you cannot stop them.
That has been proven time after time over the last 50+ years.
If your Government can con you and the rest of the "Free World" into believing that a middle east country has Weapons of Mass Destruction and therefore it and it's people should be obliterated and occupied then a few drug addicts can be trodden on like ants and will be if required.