FDA FDA deeming regulation proposals

[Myrany]

As I said in another thread (and got reamed for saying) any good business has an exit plan and I suspect many ecig businesses are dusting off their plans right about now. I really didn't expect to see any closures this soon. I figure the bulk of them will be 1 year+ past the date of official deeming. They will hold on as long as they are profitable and still leave enough time to get out while in the black.

This is just the beginning.

 

[Katya]

The death of a thousand cuts.

 

[Thundernoggin]

But mainly on the state front is what they are specifically citing. IMO

Jurisdictions across the country are proposing and passing laws targeted at vaping, that frankly we don't have the resources to keep up with. Now the state of Ohio has proposed a new excise tax (45%)

I think what they wrote is pretty clear, IMO.

 

[Danoman]

Well, NN is doing just that:

This, unfortunately, is where I think they are going to focus on... in the end. If they can control the supply of the nicotine base, THIS is where it'll hurt most of us and i'm betting they will need some way of a 'person' or 'business', license number (similar to a tax number) to be able to attain it, legally speaking. Like in small business, if they can control the SOURCE of the nicotine, they have essentially cut off any one that doesn't know how to produce the pure nicotine, for anyone. Also, those companies that produce the nicotine we use will have very closely watched supplies and be held accountable for every single ounce of liquid they produce. THIS is my biggest fear as it would help control what I believe is going to be a 'black market' scenario. VG, PG and flavorings would be MUCH harder to control in the real world... otherwise.

Originally Posted by aikanae1 Nude Nicotine 2.0 - Chemically Validated Nicotine Base and eLiquid - Ask your NN Chemistry-Related Questions Here

Repost from NN:

And in lieu of this past week's recent semi-disrupting news from the FDA, we want everyone to know that we a Nude Nicotine have prepared for this moment! The pharmaceutical style production environment and documentation we live by wont need much editing before submitting for applications from the FDA, but we are beginning to bring in outside auditing agencies to evaluate our market potential.

ECF houses a core of extremely valuable vaping activists who ACTUALLY VOICE THEMSELVES, and we couldn't be more appreciative of this fact. We'd like to extend a coupon code to you all in the hopes that you can give a few DIY supplies to a friend/family member looking to start their DIY adventure. Only in numbers can we bring to light how important this DIY community is

Use the coupon code DIYtillIdie15 for 15%-off the ENTIRE Nude Nicotine website, from now until Friday of next week (5/2)!

For now we all must continue to vape strong and support the DIY community by fighting for unflavored DIY nicotine solutions to remain available on the open market. Write to your congressman, comment on this post (Regulations.gov), and PLEASE voice your opinion that eLiquid DIY supplies, just like hand-rolling tobacco and other DIY tobacco items, must remain available to the public.

 

[Myrany]

This, unfortunately, is where I think they are going to focus on... in the end. If they can control the supply of the nicotine base, THIS is where it'll hurt most of us and i'm betting they will need some way of a 'person' or 'business', license number (similar to a tax number) to be able to attain it, legally speaking. Like in small business, if they can control the SOURCE of the nicotine, they have essentially cut off any one that doesn't know how to produce the pure nicotine, for anyone. Also, those companies that produce the nicotine we use will have very closely watched supplies and be held accountable for every single ounce of liquid they produce. THIS is my biggest fear as it would help control what I believe is going to be a 'black market' scenario. VG, PG and flavorings would be MUCH harder to control in the real world... otherwise.

Originally Posted by aikanae1 Nude Nicotine 2.0 - Chemically Validated Nicotine Base and eLiquid - Ask your NN Chemistry-Related Questions Here

Repost from NN:

And in lieu of this past week's recent semi-disrupting news from the FDA, we want everyone to know that we a Nude Nicotine have prepared for this moment! The pharmaceutical style production environment and documentation we live by wont need much editing before submitting for applications from the FDA, but we are beginning to bring in outside auditing agencies to evaluate our market potential.

ECF houses a core of extremely valuable vaping activists who ACTUALLY VOICE THEMSELVES, and we couldn't be more appreciative of this fact. We'd like to extend a coupon code to you all in the hopes that you can give a few DIY supplies to a friend/family member looking to start their DIY adventure. Only in numbers can we bring to light how important this DIY community is

Use the coupon code DIYtillIdie15 for 15%-off the ENTIRE Nude Nicotine website, from now until Friday of next week (5/2)!

For now we all must continue to vape strong and support the DIY community by fighting for unflavored DIY nicotine solutions to remain available on the open market. Write to your congressman, comment on this post (Regulations.gov), and PLEASE voice your opinion that eLiquid DIY supplies, just like hand-rolling tobacco and other DIY tobacco items, must remain available to the public.

They don't need to control hardware and I was surprised they seem to be trying to do just that. I have said for the last year that the Nic is the chokepoint. They get control of that they destroy vaping for the most part. After all what is the point of anything more than BT cigalikes if we have no liquid to use in our better devices.

 

[Danoman]

They don't need to control hardware and I was surprised they seem to be trying to do just that. I have said for the last year that the Nic is the chokepoint. They get control of that they destroy vaping for the most part. After all what is the point of anything more than BT cigalikes if we have no liquid to use in our better devices.

Exactly...
It's beginning to show that they are hitting this from every angle... I believe this is going to be the next thing that's in the works, to get total control of the vaping world and line their pockets from everything they can before imposing the 'taxes' on those businesses large enough to carry the weight of those regulations that are put in place when all the smoke clears and it's finalized in the end.

 

[Jman8]

I think what they wrote is pretty clear, IMO.

Agreed. They are saying it is the state that is doing this to them, and citing specifically what the state is doing and how it will impact them.

They are also noting that other states (jurisdictions) are doing similar things, and that vaping is under fire.

It is implausible to see this as result of FDA proposed regulations. I'm willing to concede that plays a part, but not willing to conclude it is a major part.

The stuff going on in the states is the major fight that consumers and vendors are currently up against. FDA can't do anything regarding taxation, usage policies, nor is FDA saying "vaping = smoking."

And I see the state issues as a 'we the people' occurrence, or IOW, not something big bad government at the federal level is engaging in, right now, to try and kill the industry and/or vape culture. Depending on how a survey question is worded, I can see people we all know (friends) answering questions whereby poll results would show the public wants eCigs taxed heavy, not used in many places (includes outdoors) and agrees that vaping does equal smoking. Get a governor (be they Pub or Dem) to take that data into account, from 'we the people' and the states could try and end things before FDA has even had a chance to enforce any proposed policy.

To some degree, given the way that FDA wrote its proposal, it is perhaps best chance vaping community has in sustaining a legalized version of vape culture. In other ways, it is not. But FDA, at least on the surface, talks like science is considered in its regulatory obligation. What state is actually passing laws / policies right now that go in that direction? What average non-vaping citizen is even remotely taking into account the scientific data available for eCigs?

People, including some vapers, despise smoking. Marry vaping to smoking and voila, state regulations become ideal way to try and kill vape culture.

 

[aikanae1]

RTS sent out an email that they will stop taking orders May 2nd because they are moving with no expected reopen date. I think they are more intent on doing whatever it takes to keep the nic flowing than others. I don't think the majority of business or vapers will cross the lines.

On Reddit there's been comments of other shops planning to close their doors after reading regulations and adding up the figures. This is the thing, I don't think we have 2 years. I'm not sure where / what / why I get this impression. My nature is more instinctive than anyalitical. But it's just as valid.

Someone need to keep track of these business' giving up without a fight. That says a lot. No one fought the PACT and that shuttered 4,500 small business'. They (FDA etc) don't care. But the public does.

It's becoming impossible to start a successful small business without corporate take over through legislation rather than competition.

 

[Myrany]

RTS sent out an email that they will stop taking orders May 2nd because they are moving with no expected reopen date. I think they are more intent on doing whatever it takes to keep the nic flowing than others. I don't think the majority of business or vapers will cross the lines.

On Reddit there's been comments of other shops planning to close their doors after reading regulations and adding up the figures. This is the thing, I don't think we have 2 years. I'm not sure where / what / why I get this impression. My nature is more instinctive than anyalitical. But it's just as valid.

Someone need to keep track of these business' giving up without a fight. That says a lot. No one fought the PACT and that shuttered 4,500 small business'.

No I don't think we have 2 years either. It is going to get very rough before we know how this is all going to come out in the end.

 

[Talyon]

RTS sent out an email that they will stop taking orders May 2nd because they are moving with no expected reopen date. I think they are more intent on doing whatever it takes to keep the nic flowing than others. I don't think the majority of business or vapers will cross the lines.

On Reddit there's been comments of other shops planning to close their doors after reading regulations and adding up the figures. This is the thing, I don't think we have 2 years. I'm not sure where / what / why I get this impression. My nature is more instinctive than anyalitical. But it's just as valid.

Someone need to keep track of these business' giving up without a fight. That says a lot. No one fought the PACT and that shuttered 4,500 small business'. They (FDA etc) don't care. But the public does.

It's becoming impossible to start a successful small business without corporate take over through legislation rather than competition.

I've had a similar fear for awhile now, but didnt want to mention many things actually in fear id be labeled a fear mongere.....

I elect you as the person to keep track of businesses closing their doors, sorta kidding, but it is a good idea.

 

[Thundernoggin]

Agreed....... It is implausible to see this as result of FDA proposed regulations. I'm willing to concede that plays a part, but not willing to conclude it is a major part.

I just do not understand all the typing and the attempt minimize this. I own a small business. Sit behind a retail counter every day paying the bills. And I can tell you that a new tax is bad enough when a large portion of B&M retail is suffering because of the internet. New tax + FDA regulations would have me revisiting my exit plan.

 

[Mowgli]

Think it's going to last 2 years to go through the 10,000's of applications? Think they'll even review them? I don't.

Join CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association now and help fight this.

 

[aikanae1]

Agreed. They are saying it is the state that is doing this to them, and citing specifically what the state is doing and how it will impact them.

They are also noting that other states (jurisdictions) are doing similar things, and that vaping is under fire.

It is implausible to see this as result of FDA proposed regulations. I'm willing to concede that plays a part, but not willing to conclude it is a major part.

The stuff going on in the states is the major fight that consumers and vendors are currently up against. FDA can't do anything regarding taxation, usage policies, nor is FDA saying "vaping = smoking."

And I see the state issues as a 'we the people' occurrence, or IOW, not something big bad government at the federal level is engaging in, right now, to try and kill the industry and/or vape culture. Depending on how a survey question is worded, I can see people we all know (friends) answering questions whereby poll results would show the public wants eCigs taxed heavy, not used in many places (includes outdoors) and agrees that vaping does equal smoking. Get a governor (be they Pub or Dem) to take that data into account, from 'we the people' and the states could try and end things before FDA has even had a chance to enforce any proposed policy.

To some degree, given the way that FDA wrote its proposal, it is perhaps best chance vaping community has in sustaining a legalized version of vape culture. In other ways, it is not. But FDA, at least on the surface, talks like science is considered in its regulatory obligation. What state is actually passing laws / policies right now that go in that direction? What average non-vaping citizen is even remotely taking into account the scientific data available for eCigs?

People, including some vapers, despise smoking. Marry vaping to smoking and voila, state regulations become ideal way to try and kill vape culture.

I agree this is not 100% FDA doing this, however I can't help but wonder how much they do play a part in that a lot of the local restrictions and bans are based on what the FDA/CDC is publishing re: poision calls, "anti-freeze" comments, children, etc. They are not innocent and it's as if they are intentionally setting this in motion.

People want to react to this should be reacting locally, loudly and strongly. They need to get appropiate information into their representatives hands which doesn't mean an email or petition. It means knocking on doors, making appointments, passing out starter kits. It means making sure their local B&M realize how serious this is and suggesting / insisting they do a CASAA membership drive with customers. Those are just a few things. I'd like to see some decent bumper stickers drawn up. Let friends and family know you vape.

This is NOT something the public was clammoring for - not until the FDA lies made headlines. I don't think the public wrote those scary "kids" emails that were floating around to parents sent out by schools. They actually said that vaping liquid nicotine was like "free-basing" and I'd love to figure out who to point the finger at for that nonsense. This is clearly a top->down effort.

 

[GaryInTexas]

I think the vendors are looking at the cumulative effect of all the state, local rules with taxes, and now the FDA proposal. They did not start their businesses so that they could spend their days and nights filling out ridiculous forms and sending in huge fees to various governments. Too assume that the very recent FDA proposal is not a huge factor in this vendors shutting down requires a huge amount of denial.

 

[aikanae1]

Well we need figues to say regulations / states /restrictions taxes are causing this to happen. I don't think anyone has a tally of how many shops there are in the US selling vape gear. Just having that information would end some of this "wild, wild west" comment. To my knowledge, they have only been compiling figures on the size of this market based on tobacco distributorship reporting. It's as if we didn't exist. It's not our fault that BT under valued the vaping industry yet we'll take the consequences for the short sightedness.

IMO, tanks, mods, clearos are the in fringe and they are assumng not a significant portion of the market due to a lack of figures. If anything, one place to start would be getting that data and hopefully proving this is not a fringe market.

Another option that I don't think will fly is use the excemption cigars use in that these are "artisian" and handcrafted. That's hard to do with most atomizers are produced out of the US. There's very few products made in the US. I don't think greek manufacturers are interested in applying with the FDA.

A charge with the sunscreen fiasco is that the FDA does not approve foriegn products. Never. Congress has been trying to change that since 2002.

(PS the FDA does not regulate cosemetics, just sunscreen. The cosemetic market is the wild, wild west = $10 billion dollar snake oil industry. How they escaped, I have no idea. I can make at home all sorts of lotions and potions and lipsticks laced with cynaide and arsenic and nano-partcles to my heart's desire in my bath tub and no one would say a thing. I can show you "anti-aging" products where the anti-aging component is the advice to stay out of the sun on the label. It's sorta like buying bottled water is bottled tap water from a "municipal source" and nothing more.)

 

[EddardinWinter]

I agree this is not 100% FDA doing this, however I can't help but wonder how much they do play a part in that a lot of the local restrictions and bans are based on what the FDA/CDC is publishing re: poision calls, "anti-freeze" comments, children, etc. They are not innocent and it's as if they are intentionally setting this in motion.

People want to react to this should be reacting locally, loudly and strongly. They need to get appropiate information into their representatives hands which doesn't mean an email or petition. It means knocking on doors, making appointments, passing out starter kits. It means making sure their local B&M realize how serious this is and suggesting / insisting they do a CASAA membership drive with customers. Those are just a few things. I'd like to see some decent bumper stickers drawn up. Let friends and family know you vape.

This is NOT something the public was clammoring for - not until the FDA lies made headlines. I don't think the public wrote those scary "kids" emails that were floating around to parents sent out by schools. They actually said that vaping liquid nicotine was like "free-basing" and I'd love to figure out who to point the finger at for that nonsense. This is clearly a top->down effort.

We should not discount the fact that the vendor, already facing a daunting task in tracking various regulations, seeing the "end of the line" in a couple years at the hands of the FDA goons, decides to give up the ghost. It cannot be proved to be the case, but it certainly could be a factor...perhaps even likely is a factor.

 

[Sirius]

I think the vendors are looking at the cumulative effect of all the state, local rules with taxes, and now the FDA proposal. They did not start their businesses so that they could spend their days and nights filling out ridiculous forms and sending in huge fees to various governments. Too assume that the very recent FDA proposal is not a huge factor in this vendors shutting down requires a huge amount of denial.

Agreed -- Most of the states may be looking to the FDA to regulate before proposing taxation. If that is the case they my even follow Ohio's lead and put an enormous tax on anything vape related. Look at the cost of cigarettes and how it varies from state to state and you will see what I'm talking about. Like here in Ga. cigs are around $40 a carton and in NY and NJ I think around $100 a carton.
I've never seen any state miss an opportunity to tax anything that is regulated.

 

[GaryInTexas]

Agreed -- Most of the states may be looking to the FDA to regulate before proposing taxation. If that is the case they my even follow Ohio's lead and put an enormous tax on anything vape related. Look at the cost of cigarettes and how it varies from state to state and you will see what I'm talking about. Like here in Ga. cigs are around $40 a carton and in NY and NJ I think around $100 a carton.
I've never seen any state miss an opportunity to tax anything that is regulated.

I'm almost positive that the taxation will follow. All we have to do is figure out much tobacco revenue has been lost for their pet projects and you will have a good estimate of how much they expect to bleed us for.

 

[Sirius]

I'm almost positive that the taxation will follow. All we have to do is figure out much tobacco revenue has been lost for their pet projects and you will have a good estimate of how much they expect to bleed us for.

Oh you better believe it will be a buttload! I hate this I swear I can't see anyway around big government. I actually think they are out to ruin any small business they can.

 

[Myk]

RTS sent out an email that they will stop taking orders May 2nd because they are moving with no expected reopen date. I think they are more intent on doing whatever it takes to keep the nic flowing than others. I don't think the majority of business or vapers will cross the lines.

On Reddit there's been comments of other shops planning to close their doors after reading regulations and adding up the figures. This is the thing, I don't think we have 2 years. I'm not sure where / what / why I get this impression. My nature is more instinctive than anyalitical. But it's just as valid.

Someone need to keep track of these business' giving up without a fight. That says a lot. No one fought the PACT and that shuttered 4,500 small business'. They (FDA etc) don't care. But the public does.

It's becoming impossible to start a successful small business without corporate take over through legislation rather than competition.

RTS is expanding (double or triple present size). The reason for no re-open date is they have to get permits.

Government doesn't really like small business. It's easier to keep track of a large corporation than a single person paying 5-10 people.