FDA FDA deeming regulation proposals

[Myk]

just a little note to the diy'ers.
i know a lot of you have stocked up.i believe till this all washes out
that might be a prudent thing to do.
however,if the FDA gets really heavy handed how are you going to get
your PG and VG when you have to obtain a federal license to buy it.
when you send your application along with your obscenely large check,
please include a lengthy summary of what you plan to do with it,
how you are going to do it,a detailed explanation of your mixing process and how safe it is
for you,anyone within ten miles of you and the environment.
that along with the prerequisite license from the EPA you'd be good to go.

regards
mike

Walmart, farm store, hobby stores, baking stores.
It may not be as safe as USP but neither will grabbing batteries out of lap tops or getting nicotine made at your favorite trailer court lab.

Just like with Prohibition and the War on Drugs, government is willing to kill some people to make their point that what those people do is dangerous.
As long as some people are willing to die eventually public perception turns against the deaths.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

I consider regulating out of existence to mean regulating out of legal existence. Black markets are not the solution and are a lose as far as I'm concerned. If the regulations cost so much that small companies go under, then we've lost. Sure a black market will develop, but that just creates criminals and many won't take that leap.

The FDA goon squads, various law enforcement entities, the courts & the prisons (which are owned & run by for-profit corporations) would gladly welcome these newly-created black-market criminals...

 

[Anjaffm]

There is something that I do not quite understand about the legality of the FDA holding out its hand and demanding that business owners put millions upon millions into its outstretched hand or go out of business.

Say, there is this shop operating on some street, this mom and pop store.
The store is going well, and mom and pop can live on the proceeds.
One day, a couple of .. let's say "guys" .. see this shop, and they walk into the shop and say:
"Hey, you, shop owner! You got this shop going here. And you are making money. And we are not getting any of that money.
This will stop right now! Starting today, you will give us a big portion of your earnings.
If you do, we will let you stay in business. And we will "protect" your shop.
But if you do not, then we will smash all your merchandise and we will burn your shop to the ground!"

Hm.. if private people act this way, it is called extortion.
But if a government agency acts this way, demanding big amounts of money for nothing, it is called "regulation"?

Something is very, very wrong.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

Most flavorings are not a problem, I had a stock of a dozen or so years before I started vaping, used for making candy. Tobacco flavors may take a hit, depends on how the BT production and eliquid availability shakes out.

Try a few drops of that VZ espresso the next time you make chocolate cake or cookies...to die for....

I think my biggest concern is that some flavors which are not derived from tobacco are mostly purchased for e-liquid. For ex., I tried TFA raspberry in pancakes once, and it doesn't taste all that good (I didn't like it anyway for vaping). TFA menthol for ex. - does it have a use in cooking? Heaven forbid that I will have to part w/ my beloved drinks - absinthe, creme de menthe.

Another possibilty is that certain vendors will start putting non-vapeable things in them that I avoid like acetoin. (I know, it's debateable. I just won't use it.)

I have put nescafe classic instant in cakes before, but VZ espresso never occured to me. Good to hear that someone else uses it I think it's out of this world

 

[Kent C]

There is something that I do not quite understand about the legality of the FDA holding out its hand and demanding that business owners put millions upon millions into its outstretched hand or go out of business.

Say, there is this shop operating on some street, this mom and pop store.
The store is going well, and mom and pop can live on the proceeds.
One day, a couple of .. let's say "guys" .. see this shop, and they walk into the shop and say:
"Hey, you, shop owner! You got this shop going here. And you are making money. And we are not getting any of that money.
This will stop right now! Starting today, you will give us a big portion of your earnings.
If you do, we will let you stay in business. And we will "protect" your shop.
But if you do not, then we will smash all your merchandise and we will burn your shop to the ground!"

Hm.. if private people act this way, it is called extortion.
But if a government agency acts this way, demanding big amounts of money for nothing, it is called "regulation"?

Something is very, very wrong.

That used to be called 'the mafia'. Now it's simply the government.



Spooner on the difference between a government and a highwayman (1870) | The Portable Library of Liberty

 

[Anjaffm]

@Kent C:

Wow, what an excellent link! Thank you very much!
Spooner expresses it very well indeed!

I especially like the part "He (the highwayman) does not attempt to make you either his dupe or his slave". Wow! So true!

 

[Myk]

There is something that I do not quite understand about the legality of the FDA holding out its hand and demanding that business owners put millions upon millions into its outstretched hand or go out of business.

Say, there is this shop operating on some street, this mom and pop store.
The store is going well, and mom and pop can live on the proceeds.
One day, a couple of .. let's say "guys" .. see this shop, and they walk into the shop and say:
"Hey, you, shop owner! You got this shop going here. And you are making money. And we are not getting any of that money.
This will stop right now! Starting today, you will give us a big portion of your earnings.
If you do, we will let you stay in business. And we will "protect" your shop.
But if you do not, then we will smash all your merchandise and we will burn your shop to the ground!"

Hm.. if private people act this way, it is called extortion.
But if a government agency acts this way, demanding big amounts of money for nothing, it is called "regulation"?

Something is very, very wrong.

That's pretty much what government does and the bigger it is the more blatant it is about it (and dirtier).

I think my biggest concern is that some flavors which are not derived from tobacco are mostly purchased for e-liquid. For ex., I tried TFA raspberry in pancakes once, and it doesn't taste all that good (I didn't like it anyway for vaping). TFA menthol for ex. - does it have a use in cooking? Heaven forbid that I will have to part w/ my beloved drinks - absinthe, creme de menthe.

Another possibilty is that certain vendors will start putting non-vapeable things in them that I avoid like acetoin. (I know, it's debateable. I just won't use it.)

I have put nescafe classic instant in cakes before, but VZ espresso never occured to me. Good to hear that someone else uses it I think it's out of this world

The flavors are there for cooking. You just have to know where to look. If it comes down to that I'm sure the DIY section(s) here will take off with people who know teaching others how.

 

[DC2]

What part do you need clarification on?

It is my opinion that small businesses will not be able to produce their own flavored e-liquids and have them approved by the FDA.
That is what I will bet you on.

Jman8

Why do I get the feeling you are consulting with others to see how you can tangle this bet to keep me quiet?
I am starting to wonder about you.

And if you keep saying no one will take you up on this bet, I will not remain silent.

 

[Stosh]

...The flavors are there for cooking. You just have to know where to look. If it comes down to that I'm sure the DIY section(s) here will take off with people who know teaching others how.

If we can still access liquid nicotine...that's NOT a DIY project. Flavorings are a non-issue, other than the safety of cooking flavors being used for inhalation, but this worry is common even today. Today's tobacco flavors are a combination of vanilla, carnal, various nut flavors, smoke flavor (also good for barbecuing), anise, clove, and other.

 

[twgbonehead]

No I mean in Fact BEFORE passage. I believe they have written this in a way that opens it up for having certain parts removed prior to passage. I think they have written this in a manor that allows us to request that certain items contained therein be removed but still leaving them regulatory control over others.

Basically a compromise that may end up making both parties happy. BEFORE it goes up for passage.

Ok. That's a much more tenable point, IMHO.

If so, that's a very good focus for the next 2 months!!! The FDA proposal is VERY vague about the difference between "components" (which are subject to regulation) and "accessories" (which are not). They give examples on the far extremes (i.e. hooka charcoal and empty cigarette tubes ARE subject to regulation, hooka tongs are not - and these are the least extreme of their examples). But the examples are not the ruling criteria - the descriptions are. And the descriptions, as pertaining to e-cigs include batteries, o-rings, mech mods, heads, e-liquids, PG, VG, blue aquarium foam, and tic-tac boxes.


I think they are hoping that their deeming regulations will pass in a very vague form (although this will enable court fights, if anyone with big enough pockets is willing to wage the battle). But my skeptical side says they want to pass very vague requirements, so they can satisfy their corporate lobbyists -- which will put us back into the dark ages.

 

[twgbonehead]

If we can still access liquid nicotine...that's NOT a DIY project. Flavorings are a non-issue, other than the safety of cooking flavors being used for inhalation, but this worry is common even today. Today's tobacco flavors are a combination of vanilla, carnal, various nut flavors, smoke flavor (also good for barbecuing), anise, clove, and other.

I gotta get me some of that carnal flavor! Does it impart carnal knowledge? ;-)

Edit - Or was "nut flavors" just redundant?

 

[Stosh]

I gotta get me some of that carnal flavor! Does it impart carnal knowledge? ;-)

Grumble, grumble....&@%**& spell check....

 

[Devonmoonshire]

Ok. That's a much more tenable point, IMHO.

If so, that's a very good focus for the next 2 months!!! The FDA proposal is VERY vague about the difference between "components" (which are subject to regulation) and "accessories" (which are not). They give examples on the far extremes (i.e. hooka charcoal and empty cigarette tubes ARE subject to regulation, hooka tongs are not - and these are the least extreme of their examples). But the examples are not the ruling criteria - the descriptions are. And the descriptions, as pertaining to e-cigs include batteries, o-rings, mech mods, heads, e-liquids, PG, VG, blue aquarium foam, and tic-tac boxes.


I think they are hoping that their deeming regulations will pass in a very vague form (although this will enable court fights, if anyone with big enough pockets is willing to wage the battle). But my skeptical side says they want to pass very vague requirements, so they can satisfy their corporate lobbyists -- which will put us back into the dark ages.

This is all true, very very valid points. The one thing the FDA cannot touch though is a 510 threaded flashlight. They cannot even fathom how easy it is truly SIMPLE to circumvent their regulations on these devices.

For all experienced users that use mods, we all know that they were first developed from flashlights from the dollar store. Buy a cigalike, dissect it, remove the connector and attack it to the head of a flashlight after modifying the flashlight to accept said connector. The Modders today that make even the high end mods can still just re-brand them as flashlights. Simply get ahold of that little flashlight 510 attachment that was going around a few years ago during the TSA scare and add one to every order. It is No Longer a Tobacco Product, it is an emergency preparedness kit accessory.

 

[neutrontech]

I'm not understanding how a black market is a good outcome. If the only place to get vaping products is the black market, then the FDA successfully regulated it out of existence. I'm really concerned about this whole thing. I'm not going to go looking for illegal dealers, so I'm preparing for the worst and stocking up on nicotine, wire, and rebuildables. Starting to learn DIY as well. The best way for me to prepare is to reduce my dependence on others.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

They're vague about the diffo between "components and parts" vs "accessories." But keep in mind that the statute lets them regulate both. They could issue another proposed rule later, and ban EGO carrying cases and Provari tee shirts. That's not as funny as it may seem: you can't get "Marlboro" gear anymore.

Anyway since the statute lets them regulate both, they can draw the line anywhere they please. Zeller has said that "components or parts" are "intended or anticipated for use w/ a covered tobacco product." Does that refer to Provari tee shirts? Probably not. Does it include all the equipment that we currently use, including drip tips? Yes, it could. Of course they are not going to regulate 186xx batteries, that's just silly and impractical because they have so many other uses. Ditto PG, VG, water-soluble flavorings.

It's the stuff that's essential to and unique to vaping that they can (and most of us think will) go after.

Ok. That's a much more tenable point, IMHO.

If so, that's a very good focus for the next 2 months!!! The FDA proposal is VERY vague about the difference between "components" (which are subject to regulation) and "accessories" (which are not). They give examples on the far extremes (i.e. hooka charcoal and empty cigarette tubes ARE subject to regulation, hooka tongs are not - and these are the least extreme of their examples). But the examples are not the ruling criteria - the descriptions are. And the descriptions, as pertaining to e-cigs include batteries, o-rings, mech mods, heads, e-liquids, PG, VG, blue aquarium foam, and tic-tac boxes.


I think they are hoping that their deeming regulations will pass in a very vague form (although this will enable court fights, if anyone with big enough pockets is willing to wage the battle). But my skeptical side says they want to pass very vague requirements, so they can satisfy their corporate lobbyists -- which will put us back into the dark ages.

 

[Jman8]

What part do you need clarification on?

It is my opinion that small businesses will not be able to produce their own flavored e-liquids and have them approved by the FDA.
That is what I will bet you on.

You changed this from what was said before by adding "approved by the FDA."

Even with that, I'd consider the bet based on following clarifications:
- When does this go into effect? Please provide year and not something other than a fairly specific time period.
- What is a small business? Is EC Blends a small business? If not, then please clarify what that is for you.

If you change another item, or two, I may seek more clarification.

 

[DC2]

You changed this from what was said before by adding "approved by the FDA."

Even with that, I'd consider the bet based on following clarifications:
- When does this go into effect? Please provide year and not something other than a fairly specific time period.
- What is a small business? Is EC Blends a small business? If not, then please clarify what that is for you.

If you change another item, or two, I may seek more clarification.

There is no time period.

My bet would be the NO small business will ever be able to produce their own flavored e-liquids and have them approved by the FDA.
Ever means ever.


As far as what is a small business, well that's a sticking point isn't it.
I think that what that means is pretty clear to those that know what's going on here.

But just to make it crystal clear, you tell me what you think it means for the purposes of the bet.


EDIT: And yeah, if you're going to go with ECBlends then I would count them as a small business
EDIT: In other words, they would never get any flavor approved

 

[twgbonehead]

This is all true, very very valid points. The one thing the FDA cannot touch though is a 510 threaded flashlight. They cannot even fathom how easy it is truly SIMPLE to circumvent their regulations on these devices.

For all experienced users that use mods, we all know that they were first developed from flashlights from the dollar store. Buy a cigalike, dissect it, remove the connector and attack it to the head of a flashlight after modifying the flashlight to accept said connector. The Modders today that make even the high end mods can still just re-brand them as flashlights. Simply get ahold of that little flashlight 510 attachment that was going around a few years ago during the TSA scare and add one to every order. It is No Longer a Tobacco Product, it is an emergency preparedness kit accessory.

Yes, FT sells at least one mod (kind of expensive) that comes with a 510-threaded attachment. I figure (hope!) the Chinese will end up making a totally el-cheapo 510 flashlight head that they can sell in quantity to US manufacturers (and include one with every mod/battery/etc) so they can be sold as flashlights.

FT also sells a bunch of heads with built-in LED's, like these:
https://www.fasttech.com/p/1550906
so IF they included one with every battery they could possibly be listed as "handheld nite-lights"

I'm still not sure that works, however, since the FDA uses the phrase can be used. With a strict interpretation, blue foam and tic-tac boxes have been used as components of e-cigarettes.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

Yes, FT sells at least one mod (kind of expensive) that comes with a 510-threaded attachment. I figure (hope!) the Chinese will end up making a totally el-cheapo 510 flashlight head that they can sell in quantity to US manufacturers (and include one with every mod/battery/etc) so they can be sold as flashlights.

FT also sells a bunch of heads with built-in LED's, like these:
https://www.fasttech.com/p/1550906
so IF they included one with every battery they could possibly be listed as "handheld nite-lights"

I'm still not sure that works, however, since the FDA uses the phrase can be used. With a strict interpretation, blue foam and tic-tac boxes have been used as components of e-cigarettes.

This is true, but you really must see it from a Realistic stance. A Toilet Paper or Paper Towel roll "CAN" be used to smoke tobacco, anything on this planet CAN be used to make an ecig. They cannot possibly regulate everything on the planet. It is simply impossible for them to gain full control over this industry. It Cannot Be done realistically.

 

[Stosh]

Yes, FT sells at least one mod (kind of expensive) that comes with a 510-threaded attachment. I figure (hope!) the Chinese will end up making a totally el-cheapo 510 flashlight head that they can sell in quantity to US manufacturers (and include one with every mod/battery/etc) so they can be sold as flashlights.

FT also sells a bunch of heads with built-in LED's, like these:
https://www.fasttech.com/p/1550906
so IF they included one with every battery they could possibly be listed as "handheld nite-lights"

I'm still not sure that works, however, since the FDA uses the phrase can be used. With a strict interpretation, blue foam and tic-tac boxes have been used as components of e-cigarettes.

It's the broad language of the deeming that allows the FDA to decide how much and what is included, the deeming is purposely written in the broadest language possible. The FDA can then stomp out anything they think will "harm your health" or "harm the children"