FDA Proposed regulation is available

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Jman8

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At times, samples of e-cigs have been handed out for free. This is not legal at the moment with cigarettes, there's no reason for it to be legal at this time with vaporizers. While harm reduction (not that the FDA currently admits that), they are not harmless.

I also filter FDA proposal thru idea that 'they' see vaping industry as doing all it can to attract youth into the market and get them hooked on a lifelong habit of vaping. Free samples are age old practice to give people a 'taste' of something that is good, and possibly addictive, and then trust their cravings will kick in and they'll feel they absolutely must have more, regardless of the price. So, in an effort to curtail easy gateway to potential of addiction, and (what they see as) destructive lifelong habit, then free samples must be done away with.

I've never had a free sample of smokes, and didn't know they even existed. Now that I do, next time someone wants to bum a smoke, I'm going to cite federal law and explain why I can't give them one.
 
For me it's like when someone who says "I knew that would happen" only because it was one scenario of the thousands that went through their head. After the fact, they assign an importance to that one. "See?" :facepalm:

Are you therefore assuming that they didn't follow logical threads to their conclusions and assign approximate probabilities to the outcome? Why? Because you didn't?

Point in fact, I gave a 1 in 4 chance to nic concentrates going by the wayside, high enough that I ordered some. Fortunately, that was wrong...but it meant it fell into my 3 in 4 probability band.

My last comment on it....

Promise?
 

Fulgurant

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Tish-tosh. If you evaluate the probabilities and the events work that way, it's hardly irrational to have arrived at that conclusion. I, for instance, wouldn't bet on the Sun going nova tomorrow given what I know of fusion processes and solar stability. It would be foolish (on several levels) to bet that it will.

The horse analogy is inaccurate; you weren't running a probability and finding it in your favor. Or if you were, available data contradicts you.

Ah, but that's a different thing altogether. Before you said that the outcome proved Jman correct retrospectively. Now you say that his position (and yours, presumably) was reasonable given the information available at the time -- which is at least a defensible argument, but it has no bearing on what I said. The fact remains that outcomes cannot retrospectively vindicate decisions, whether those decisions are sound or not otherwise.

The rest of your post is content-bereft posturing, and this thread isn't an appropriate place for a proportionate response. Ok, fine I'm a paranoiac and nothing the FDA could ever do would make me happy. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
 

MorpheusPA

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I also filter FDA proposal thru idea that 'they' see vaping industry as doing all it can to attract youth into the market and get them hooked on a lifelong habit of vaping. Free samples are age old practice to give people a 'taste' of something that is good, and possibly addictive, and then trust their cravings will kick in and they'll feel they absolutely must have more, regardless of the price. So, in an effort to curtail easy gateway to potential of addiction, and (what they see as) destructive lifelong habit, then free samples must be done away with.

I've never had a free sample of smokes, and didn't know they even existed. Now that I do, next time someone wants to bum a smoke, I'm going to cite federal law and explain why I can't give them one.

Since you aren't a vendor, the law does not apply. :) As you know, of course. You're free to gift somebody with cigarettes or a PV and liquid if you want to, or to offer yours for sample.

My mother remembers when cigarettes were given out for free. I don't, but it's been banned for my entire smoking history.

The reason I don't consider giving out e-cigs as samples to be an issue is simple. We can't absolutely assure that they're harmless (quite the opposite, air studies do show trace amounts of chemicals). For the average ex-smoker, that's a no-brainer. Traces are worlds better than the full hit of the stuff!

Until we have long-term studies, and that will be some time yet, we can't say they're harmless. Our short and middle term data says definitively that there's absolutely no comparison with a cigarette, but that they aren't completely devoid of carcinogens.

As an ex-smoker, it wasn't even to be considered. I'd counsel a never-smoker who asked to stay away from them if possible.
 
I wonder how many around this watering hole see regulation as validation. Further, stand to gain from such...

If the argument implies that anybody in support of regulation is a vendor shill, I have several words for you. Unfortunately, they're all unprintable and would get me banned. You can imagine them if you like.

Not everybody who really wants liquids to be safe and standardized is selling them. Far from it. No more than I sell attys, yet I regularly advise potential sub-ohmers to be careful, know their battery, and don't take risks.
 

Cool_Breeze

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Deep breaths, Morpheus...deep breaths.

If the argument implies that anybody in support of regulation is a vendor shill, I have several words for you. Unfortunately, they're all unprintable and would get me banned. You can imagine them if you like.

Not everybody who really wants liquids to be safe and standardized is selling them. Far from it. No more than I sell attys, yet I regularly advise potential sub-ohmers to be careful, know their battery, and don't take risks.
 

patkin

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I don't know if being on an Indian Reservation means there was some legal exception but I've been given whole packs of smokes as recently as 6 years ago when a new brand by an Indian mfgr (additive and preservative free) was being test-marketed. I don't know if the store-owner was an owner/co-owner of the company or if he/they were paid by it to setup a table and distribute in his shop.
 

BostonVape

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Not really. Definitions that would stand up in court and be applicable to regulators must be incredibly exact. They aren't intended to be read by the Common Folk as they lack the educational specifics and background to do so. They're intended to be read and interpreted by regulators and by the court.

It's unreasonable to expect plain English as it isn't nearly exacting enough. Try reading a fully formal science paper on a topic about which you aren't completely familiar. It reads pretty much the same way.

I disagree.. a science paper would be much easier to read and much more accurate than most politician's 'regulations'.. And you are also saying that there is no way to accurately capture this proposal without it being 250 pages? Gimme a break.
 
I disagree.. a science paper would be much easier to read and much more accurate than most politician's 'regulations'.. And you are also saying that there is no way to accurately capture this proposal without it being 250 pages? Gimme a break.

And survive a lawsuit? No. Just like a science paper that's referencing lots of earlier papers, this one is nodding to and including lots of previous law.

Most notably that 2009 tobacco control act, which is where the 2007 date comes from for the regulations (it's not chosen to kill the industry, it's required by current law established before vaping was on the radar). But if you didn't know that, the date would be quite opaque to you.
 

Nate760

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I disagree.. a science paper would be much easier to read and much more accurate than most politician's 'regulations'.. And you are also saying that there is no way to accurately capture this proposal without it being 250 pages? Gimme a break.

The real art of bureaucratic prose writing is in the ability to write hundreds of thousands of words without being specific about anything. I guarantee you, every page and every word of this document has been carefully crafted to leave the agency as much latitude and discretion as possible, while maintaining the appearance of a massive wall of text in which every "i" is dotted and every "t" crossed.
 
Jan 19, 2014
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Just for what it may be worth:

1) The 2/16/07 date is hard-coded in the statute. Do a search for it in the PDF, and you'll see that the FDA is not altering it - because it can't. All it can do is to extend a time from for complaince, i.e. give makers of "tobacco products" introduced after 2007 more time to submit an application under the rubric of a "reduced harm" tobacco product, a new tobacco product, or a tobacco product that is "substantially equivalent" to one available prior to that date. The "time extension clock" goes for 2 years, and begins to run after the new reg.s become final. So at that point, no vapor-related "tobacco product" can be on the market unless an application has been submitted and is under review. In fact, unless the product was on the market prior to 3/22/11, it must be pulled off until it gets FDA approval (those which were introduced after the '07 date but before '11 date can stay, while their SE application is under review). See p.122. Or for that matter, Glantz's blog (which I hate to cite as a source but it will do as well as anything for this point): http://www.tobacco.ucsf.edu/
public-comment-fdas-process-documenting-substantial-equivalence-need-high-standards-evidence-and-rea

2) What that means is that 2 years after the rule becomes final, almost every vaping "tobacco product" not yet approved by the FDA will have to be pulled from the market.

3) pp.6-7 and p.11 make it clear that virtually every single piece of equipment currently used by non-cigAlikes is a tobacco product, with the sole exception (probably) of generic batteries. That means coils, cartos, MODs (APVs and mech), and on and on. Even a lousy drip tip will be considered a "tobacco product" that can only be sold to adults, much as cigarette papers are today. Mind you, the FDA could theoretically regulate a 18650 battery under the deeming rule, but as a practical matter it's not going to do that since that would likely interfere with other uses. But there are no other uses for Provaris or even a humble ego spinner. They are deemed tobacco products under the proposed rule, and therefore must pass all the tests described in item #1 above.

4) p.111 makes it clear that registration is required w/i 6 months after the rule becomes final.

***

Even assuming that: (1) internet sales continue (i.e. whatever compliance mechanism for age verification that they require isn't terribly budensome); and (2) all the manufacturers register w/i 6 months of the finalization date .... it's very difficult to see how there will be anything left besides BT/BV cigAlikes after that 2-year clock runs down. And since not too many people end up quitting with those, Glantz will have his "dual user" and "lack of cessation" studies in five years.

This is the end of vaping as we know it, and it could happen as soon as 75 days and two years from now. July 2, 2016 I think. However chances are pretty good that the litigation will drag on for a while. But manufacturers of equipment and e-liquid will have little incentive to invest in new plant and equipment, and every incentive to retool.

Eventually the cigAlike industry may die out, too. (Or become absorbed into the BP NRT methods.) How many people will stick with cigAlikes, once there are no flavors (these can be eliminated if the FDA deems them "cigarettes"), they're the same price as tobacco cigarettes, and the use restrictions are just as great?

Perhaps five or ten years from now, there will be a few hardy folks with mechs + RDAs and/or DIY equipment, vaping 0% or maybe DIY e-liquid made from leftover high-concentration nic. that they froze. But those people (and some of you might be among them) ... will be the last of our kind.

At least one of us will live to read Stanton Glantz's obituary.

P.S.: There is still hope for things like the vitAcig. The FDA can't touch a device that's designed and built from the ground up to not use e-liquid dervived from tobacco (ie. it come with a manufacturer-supplied non-consumer-refillable cartridge). The second generation Ploom-type devices which have herbal packets and which heat (but do not vaporize) them are also out of FDA reach, so long as they can't be used for a tobacco product. So there will still be a kind of vaping. Congress will have to act separately to bring those under FDA jurisdiction.
 
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