FDA FDA to BAN/RESTRICT Vaping UNLESS...

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Jman8

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I don't have any criticism for the IDEA that FTV had- it's a great idea on paper and it's awesome to get people involved. But the implimentation of it just falls way short for me. I fear that, in the end, it will end up being as effective as that petition to the White House from a couple of months ago. It's honestly not much more than a petition.

I actually share your concern on this, and haven't submitted thru FTV yet.

It leaves a bit to be desired, from what I think needs to be done. But for some vapers, doing something sooner than later is desired. Feeling like you are involved and sharing information that goes directly to FDA is desired.

CASAA currently isn't offering much. And what has been offered has left things to be desired. CTA #1 could've been done better. I'm okay with the essence of it, but it isn't beyond criticism in what it went for and how it went about it. Fortunately, CASAA wasn't only entity making that request, so that issue is bigger than CASAA. CTA #2 I have a little bit more issue with as the disparity in numbers is so great, I wonder if our experts actually know what they are talking about. 100K total products? Seriously? Ridiculous in how far off that estimation is.

And yet, the essence of what CTA #2 offered has merit. And that does outweigh the gross error on the numbers issue.

More importantly though, I'm yet to hear any pro-vaping enthusiast or expert that feels we consumers/stakeholders can win (on something), or influence things enough going forward. If that isn't changed, I'm not sure what any CTA or comment submission is going to do with regards to federal regulations.
 

patkin

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The youtubes I've watched advocating FTV reached, I believe, a dozen this morning. I haven't done a rewatch-exact-count but many of them also favorably mention and/or advocate for CASAA while others don't mention it at all but none of them say they disagree with CASAA's methods. That's the difference I see. Perhaps I'm seeing it incorrectly or my perspective is skewed based on delivery styles. "Fairness," however, is NOT an issue for me... the cause is. I fear addressing "fairness" will become a red herring and just another weapon in the hands of the "divide and conquer militia" obviously out in force.
 

aikanae1

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Maybe not so much here, but we've been getting criticized elsewhere for not promoting FTV's form letter.

CASAA has no issue with FTV other than we don't want our members filling out their form and not following through with CASAA's CTAs and that it may cause a lot of other vapers to not bother with the more thorough comments using CASAA guidelines/advice. CASAA leadership has not been going around criticizing the FTV system, but we've been forced into explaining why we aren't endorsing and promoting it. Some people have taken our refusal to do so as an attack on FTV and have been harsh in their criticism of CASAA not doing it. Ironically, the people criticizing CASAA for supposedly trying to stop others from doing what they want seem forget that means CASAA also has the right to do what we want and we don't want to advise our members to take shortcuts. They say CASAA shouldn't tell people what to do and then proceed to tell CASAA what to do (ie. promote FTV). Not exactly fair, IMO.

I'm sorry your catching heat because that's silly too. Just like a few comments on ECF that seemed to feel one or the other divided their loyalties for some reason??? That's giving it a life of it's own to project so much into it.

It's a single webpage designed to do a single thing and address a single issue (largely for the brain dead, I guess). That is all it is. CASAA (Luv 'ya and wouldn't want to be in your shoes) has a web page that is not for the brain dead. It is challenging to navigate, addresses too many issues (which you need to) and can be confusing. It's easier to remember words than letters. This is NOT critisism - most of this is what CASAA is about and is needed. However, this is where I see FTV could be a wonderful compliment to the cause.

The reality is that CASAA has 20k members now? Huge in comparison to a few months ago and I expect it to continue to grow. But there are millions of vapers and millions of people who know vapers and support them vaping. This is true even on ECF. What the issues are surrounding signing up for a free membership, I don't have the imagination for it. I think it's safe to say there is. Again, not a critisism, but an observation. The FTV site side steps this. The site could be a tool to reach vapers who are not plugged into the vaping community / may not be aware of CASAA or impending FDA regulations.

Your assuming all vapers know about CASAA and there's a very good chance that isn't the case. I'm not sure who is watching many of these reviewers, but I suspect they know their audience and there was a lot of time put into developing the "poster" FTV that their audience would be attracted to and use.

Personally I would like to see this rolled into an awareness progam for CASAA since I suspect it's reaching a different audience. Say after hitting the submit button, the page shows a CASAA link to sign up and goes to the CASAA website.

My other thought is that my comments to congress are tailored very differently than my comments to the FDA. I sorta wish the site was directed solely towards congress only, but since the FDA has no restriction on the number of comments, I don't see harm there either. It's just not "perfect".

Overall, I see FTV as a way to reach a wider audience. I've gotten 5 emails from vendors plugging the FTV site. Why FTV and not CASAA? I have no idea. The best guess I have is the FTV website is clean, simple, easy to use and link to. Marketing. I can't explain it.

I do think it's a really good sign that people DO want to do something. IMO fidgety volunteers will find something to do eventually. If you want it to be constructive, it's important to work with them and guide them before they take the reins on their own path or you fold their path in somehow. That's what I meant by being an unbrella orgainization.
 
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aikanae1

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ALL of this got started when PBsuardo pulled his video and posted on his FB page that he got mixed signals from CASAA - which is how CASAA got dragged in. His poor FB page has now got apx 200 comments, some pretty heated, creating sides and making accusations, "a life of it's own". I knew he had a strong voice, but I didn't realize how much he leads.

His website has been edited since with a few more details, ending with "I'm quite sure you'll see the banner back on this site soon enough, but don't let that stop you or cause you to pause. If it's something you believe in, then my (by) all means support it and take action. More soon enough."

So this controversy will probably turn out to be imaginary.
 

patkin

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ALL of this got started when PBsuardo pulled his video and posted on his FB page that he got mixed signals from CASAA - which is how CASAA got dragged in. His poor FB page has now got apx 200 comments, some pretty heated, creating sides and making accusations, "a life of it's own". I knew he had a strong voice, but I didn't realize how much he leads.

His website has been edited since with a few more details, ending with "I'm quite sure you'll see the banner back on this site soon enough, but don't let that stop you or cause you to pause. If it's something you believe in, then my (by) all means support it and take action. More soon enough."

So this controversy will probably turn out to be imaginary.

Yup.. and on his June 5, 10:55 post, he said "for the record" that he had already completed his own entry at FTV.
 

Catdumpling

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I think writing to your state and local reps is a very good thing, but I have some serious reservations about the FTV website.

First off, there's been virtually NO transparency: we have no idea who's behind it, or why it was registered anonymously through a Canadian registrar. The supposed webmaster popped up on Phil's Facebook earlier (using a FB account that is devoid of any other information), gave a half-hearted apology for the porn that was posted on FTV comments page and then disappeared. A few of us asked questions regarding the security of the website and never got a response. As someone who used to design and manage websites for a living, it's pretty clear to me that whoever's running the FTV site has no clue what they're doing. They didn't implement basic security protocols, and allowing executable HTML code in the comments boxes was absolutely ridiculous. It very well may have been a genuine error on their part, but it makes me question ever single other aspect of that website; if they didn't even take basic security precautions, I have to wonder whether anything else is working properly (like their supposed "auto-fax" system.) Further, there's absolutely nothing that leads me to believe the site is using any sort of encryption...and even if they finally implement it, there's nothing to say that someone didn't already get into their site and harvest everyone's info. To be fair, there's nothing to say that did happen either, but given the whole porn thing it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

Second, as of right now (12am MST, Sunday morning) there's still no Terms Of Service or Privacy Policy posted, which is required by law in many jurisdictions for any website that collects personal information. I've heard that this specific issue was brought to the attention of the person in charge of the FTV website, but they still haven't bothered to put one up and it's been two days now. The people directly involved with the site aren't saying anything, aren't addressing legitimate concerns, and that's disconcerting.

Finally, I'm not entirely sure how effective this will be. Many offices now use a fax-to-email system: when you send a fax to their number, it's automatically converted to an email and sent to their inbox. If they have this sort of system in their office and start receiving hundreds of faxes/email all at once, they may very well just mark them all as spam and trash them (and block the incoming number.) To be honest, if I was a politician who already received thousands of faxes and emails a day, that's exactly what I would do (then again, I'm proudly NOT a politician, so...) Of course all of this assumes the FTV's auto-forwarding feature is actually functional, which I have my doubts about given the absolutely amateur way the rest of the website has been implemented thus far.

Look, I think most (if not all) of the people involved clearly had our best interests at heart. I don't question the intents of RipTrippers, Phil, Twisted or anyone else, and like I started off with, I think writing your reps is a great idea. I've done it and will do it again. But the implementation in this case has been highly questionable and it bothers me. Instead of relying on a sketchy website, I think everyone would be much better off to just cut out the middleman, print out that same info in a letter and mail it to your reps' offices YOURSELF. This way you know exactly where it's going. We all know how easy it is to ignore emails, especially when we get a bunch from the same sender (in this case the FTV website); ignoring physical letters is much more difficult, especially when they're not all coming from the same return address. Most grocery stores sell stamps: when you go grocery shopping this week, just pick up some stamps when you check out. Or go to the USPS's website and print out postage at home. You don't even have to go to the post office to mail it, you can put outgoing mail in your mailbox (that's what that flag is for) or the "Outgoing Mail" box at apartment/condo complexes. It's not a whole lot of extra work, but at least you have a higher chance of successfully getting the attention of someone important.
 

patkin

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Seems like deja vu since I just read the short-form version (not so short for even FB posts though) of your post on Phil's FB page Catdumpling. I also saw that Brent, before you, posted addressing some of your concerns and said to use the info@ button to email him with concerns and he wil, for sure, answer them. He specifically addressed participant security saying it was super tight from the get-go as it was always a priority but that, of course, with any "grassroots" (to quote him) movement quickly thrown together due to the time constraints there were a few glitches that have since been worked out... but none of them were in the security area. I took to time to post this as I thought it the right thing to do. When allegations are made, those they're being leveled at should always have a chance to be heard. At least when using inflammatory terms like "sketchy website" the other side should be heard from and since I don't know if he's a member here or has time to respond to such as that, anyone interested in reading what Brent... the heretofore said to be "anonymous" owner has to say, I suggest going to Phil Busardo's FB page to get it first-hand.
 
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DC2

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Personally I would like to see this rolled into an awareness progam for CASAA since I suspect it's reaching a different audience. Say after hitting the submit button, the page shows a CASAA link to sign up and goes to the CASAA website.
I liked your entire post, but this part especially.
:)
 

Guard5

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signed up for free to vape this is what i posted hope it helps some senator or whomever understand

I smoked for 6 years and dipped smokeless tobacco for 5 years following that. I tried many times to quit with; patches, gum, chantax prescription, cold turkey, and none of those things worked for me. I have been tobacco free for 4 months now and not once have I had any slips. I still to this day keep a full can of dip, just as a reminder that I did it, I defeated tobacco. Vaping has added years to my life and restored my teeth, lungs, and gums to being healthy now. The many reputable suppliers of e juice and e cig accessories is a good thing for our economy and for myself. It gives us health conscience people a choice in what we would like to buy. The many choices and ideas in juice, e cigs, and hardware give us consumers not only a hobby but an enjoyable way to destroy a habit that has destroyed many peoples lives. The FDA proposals would cripple the smaller vendors, and possibly create a monopoly amongst, groups or individuals with more access to money or fundings. As a consumer I enjoy having choices in the products that I purchase, just as anyone would not want to purchase, for example one type of soda,. We as the greatest nation in the world should not prohibit entrepreneurs or other such individuals for prospering, because that is what our nation has been founded on. Many great people have played important roles in keeping families together, stronger, healthier, and alive, and we should continue to allow those same people the rights to be able to.

Thank you to whom it might concern
 

Catdumpling

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Seems like deja vu since I just read the short-form version (not so short for even FB posts though) of your post on Phil's FB page Catdumpling. I also saw that Brent, before you, posted addressing some of your concerns and said to use the info@ button to email him with concerns and he wil, for sure, answer them. He specifically addressed participant security saying it was super tight from the get-go as it was always a priority but that, of course, with any "grassroots" (to quote him) movement quickly thrown together due to the time constraints there were a few glitches that have since been worked out... but none of them were in the security area. I took to time to post this as I thought it the right thing to do. When allegations are made, those they're being leveled at should always have a chance to be heard. At least when using inflammatory terms like "sketchy website" the other side should be heard from and since I don't know if he's a member here or has time to respond to such as that, anyone interested in reading what Brent... the heretofore said to be "anonymous" owner has to say, I suggest going to Phil Busardo's FB page to get it first-hand.

I read what Brent posted, but he didn't address most of the concerns. He said "security was tight from the get-go", but clearly it wasn't because he didn't do something as simple as disabling HTML execution in the comments box (which is how all the photos of bunnies, kitties and porn ended up there.) He never said what kind of encryption the site may be using and never explained why there is no TOS or privacy policy posted. These are all things a competent webmaster should be able to answer offhand. I have a hard time taking him for his word that "security was tight from the get-go" because of these things. I stated that he gave a half-hearted apology and then never returned to the conversation, and you can see that's what happened on Phil's FB. I wasn't the only one that asked him questions, nor was I the only one who failed to receive any solid answers. He had the perfect opportunity to explain the situation, and failed to. I'm not going to apologize for the whole thing seeming sketchy to me, because that's how I feel and it's my own opinion. You're free to disagree with me, and frankly I hope I am just being overly cautious or paranoid.

I'm not trying to imply that the FTV webmaster is intentionally doing anything wrong. If I had to guess, it's probably just someone who's heart was in the right place but overestimated their skill. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give them a free pass either: site operation and security, and the real-world effectiveness of the campaign, are very legitimate concerns and they need to be addressed. I am far from the only person asking for this, and the longer it goes unanswered the less confidence people are going to have in it.

EDITED to add: Emails have been sent by multiple people, without response. Regardless, these are concerns that FTV needs to address publicly because so many people have brought them up. Addressing them in a private email conversation isn't the proper way to allay very public concerns and questions.
 
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Stosh

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I'm not sure about what the concern is about the security of the website. The only personal information required is your name (you can use an alias) town, state, and zip code. Other than that if you smoked a PAD or 2 PAD doesn't seem useful to sell as private information.

Executing html code in the comments box is not a good sign, but would only be dangerous to their servers, not anyone filling out the form. If the stats of my smoking / vaping career end up in the bit bucket, or a politicians circular file, or actually being read by a few exceptions somewhere, seems worth the risk of exposing my hometown and zipcode.
 

kristin

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The youtubes I've watched advocating FTV reached, I believe, a dozen this morning. I haven't done a rewatch-exact-count but many of them also favorably mention and/or advocate for CASAA while others don't mention it at all but none of them say they disagree with CASAA's methods. That's the difference I see. Perhaps I'm seeing it incorrectly or my perspective is skewed based on delivery styles. "Fairness," however, is NOT an issue for me... the cause is. I fear addressing "fairness" will become a red herring and just another weapon in the hands of the "divide and conquer militia" obviously out in force.

If they agreed with CASAA'S methods they wouldn't be creating FTV. So the message is clear. But that is fine - they have the right to disagree with how CASAA is handling things and do their own thing.

CASAA hasn't started a campaign against FTV. We were asked by a member ON OUR FB GROUP if we recommended it, we explained why we didn't and all hell broke loose from FTV supporters. If not for having to defend our opinion, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. We would have let FTV do their thing and we would do our thing, except people started attacking us for not promoting FTV's thing.

It got so ridiculous that FTV supporters were accusing CASAA of being paid off to mislead vapers and asking for financial info to prove we weren't shills.

Why are FTV supporters allowed to disagree with CASAA's plan but CASAA is not allowed to disagree - to its own members - with the FTV plan? THAT is what I meant by "fairness."

ETD - For the record, I'm fairly certain that none of this is being pushed by the actual FTV organizers, but by their supporters. I'm not even certain who the actual organizers are, though. We only spoke to one person.
 
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AndriaD

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It IS important to highlight how the vast majority who have stopped smoking cigarettes, because the statistics are deliberately twisted to hide the fact.

People who vape are routinely counted statistically as NOT having quit. So the fact that they have stopped smoking cigarettes is lost in the statistics.

I visited my mom in the hospital recently, and was chatting with one of her nurses... at my statement "I quit smoking cigarettes about 3 months ago using e-cigarettes," her face contorted into every kind of bitter expression you can imagine, as she struggled to find ANYTHING to say to that -- she finally settled on "well it's good that you've quit." She did NOT want to hear that I had quit smoking using e-cigarettes, and she certainly didn't want to acknowledge it!!! But she's a nurse, so she finally had to agree that it was good that I had quit.

When I first got here, there was some talk of CASAA having a bumpersticker or two -- I think a GREAT bumpersticker would be I QUIT SMOKING BY VAPING!

Andria
 

2coils

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At a time that the industry is facing the most adversity, the last thing we need is to be divided. Are people forgetting how and why CASAA was formed and all of the hard work that had been done SO FAR by them and its members. IMO CASAA has to defend nothing. IMO each of CASAA, FTV, Vaping Milita all serve a purpose. FTV I believe will reach people that normally wouldn't have done much in terms of advocacy or fighting. It is a simple and easy tool to show your support of vaping. That is it, a mere strength in numbers format.

Unfortunately, CASAA can not reach everyone. I don't think FTV will dilute CASAA's effectiveness either. As the CTA's are rolled out, CASAA membership needs to respond, period. People are being impatient and tough, on a group of folks, who work full time jobs. I am sure they are doing the best they can, with what they have.
 

NorthOfAtlanta

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