FF Professional Flavouring (Foodie Flavours)

[ceeceeisme]

I was wondering who has some experience with the product line from this company. There's a slew of flavors available here in Canada and I'm looking at them a bit closer now as I bought a sample size of their Grand Marnier from one of my regular DIY suppliers.

*Wow* absolutely just like Grand Marnier! I added 1% to my Custard Cannoli recipe and it's fabulous.

I would rate it as 5/5.

I am going to buy some more samples as this is highly concentrated flavoring which makes it more cost effective in my mind. It is a British company, from their website:

"Please remember our flavours are 'high strength' so only a few drops are usually needed. As a guide measure start with a dose rate of around 0.15%.... for 100 grams of product you might start with 0.15 grams (approx. 2 drops)"

I would love to hear ratings and experiences with this flavor line from other DIYers.

 

[Adam harris]

Never heard of them..have they been around a while or are they a company for vaper's?

 

[ceeceeisme]

I don't know much about them but the flavors are available for e-liquid DIY from one of the suppliers I use here in Canada Canada's Flavour Depot,

And on the manufacturers website they state:
"Having been involved with the Food & Drink industry for many decades, developing and innovating new products, we thought it would be appropriate and fun to make available a range of flavours. So in 2012 we launched “Foodie Flavours” – aimed at the food professional and those who take food seriously – who, like us, desire to create new products or innovate new applications using quality flavouring."

"Appropriate and fun" and "Innovate new applications" means they are likely aware their products are being used for e-liquid manufacture and the launch date of 2012 leads me to believe they did so to take advantage of the emerging vaping DIY culture.

Don't know for sure, strictly conjecture on my part.... just sayin' that's what I think but then I'm reading between the lines, so to speak.

 

[Adam harris]

I don't know much about them but the flavors are available for e-liquid DIY from one of the suppliers I use here in Canada Canada's Flavour Depot,

And on the manufacturers website they state:
"Having been involved with the Food & Drink industry for many decades, developing and innovating new products, we thought it would be appropriate and fun to make available a range of flavours. So in 2012 we launched “Foodie Flavours” – aimed at the food professional and those who take food seriously – who, like us, desire to create new products or innovate new applications using quality flavouring."

"Appropriate and fun" and "Innovate new applications" means they are likely aware their products are being used for e-liquid manufacture and the launch date of 2012 leads me to believe they did so to take advantage of the emerging vaping DIY culture.

Don't know for sure, strictly conjecture on my part.... just sayin' that's what I think but then I'm reading between the lines, so to speak.

Understood. It's nice to see they have been at it for a while though. That's a plus in my book.

 

[retired1]

"Appropriate and fun" and "Innovate new applications" means they are likely aware their products are being used for e-liquid manufacture and the launch date of 2012 leads me to believe they did so to take advantage of the emerging vaping DIY culture.

Don't know for sure, strictly conjecture on my part.... just sayin' that's what I think but then I'm reading between the lines, so to speak.

Unlikely.

Here's their website. HOME

If you go through their FAQ, you'll see that they're dedicated strictly towards consumables with absolutely no mention of using their products in e-liquids. Especially as they caution that some of their flavors are highly flammable.

 

[ceeceeisme]

Unlikely.

Here's their website. HOME

If you go through their FAQ, you'll see that they're dedicated strictly towards consumables with absolutely no mention of using their products in e-liquids. Especially as they caution that some of their flavors are highly flammable.

If you go through any of the manufacturers websites for all the flavoring companies you won't find any that say they are for inhalation.

TFA for example doesn't say anywhere on their website that their flavors are suitable for making e-liquid and only have a small caveat about electronic cigarettes, halfway down in their FAQ:

"Inhalation of flavor chemical blends by use of electronic cigarettes is a popular and more chemically pure alternative to traditional tobacco smoking. However, please note that this use of flavors is a relatively new practice, and has not been safety-tested by any official organizations. Therefore, we are not able to guarantee that any flavor is safe for this use. This would also be true for any other flavor manufacturer. There are no companies that can guarantee that any flavor is safe for long-term use. There has just not been enough time to do this kind of testing."

 

[ceeceeisme]

Hmmm... I see while I'm going through TFA's website they too caution that:

"Some of our flavors are flammable"

Go figure

 

[jambi]

These appear to be extracts. As such they will contain certain natural sugars that are not ideal for vaping use, due to their highly combustible qualities. At the least, they will drastically shorten the life of your coils. Personally I would not use them and would advise Use at Own Risk.

There are many flavor manufacturers that are attentive to our particular needs of their products. Flavourart, Capella, TFA (despite the disclaimers on their website), Inawera are all well aware that their flavors are used for vaping and engineer their products to be as safe as current knowledge allows for that application.

Also, a close look at the FlavourFog website reveals that nowhere do they portray themselves as catering to vapers. I understand the logic in that considering current regulatory/liability constraints, but I would not consider them a "Vape-centric" vendor and carefully choose only products they sell that are "currently deemed" (not to be confused with "proven") to be safe for vaping use.

Future research could prove me wrong on all that. I'm just following current protocol on the topic.

 

[dannyv45]

I honestly don't see anything about them that indicate a health hazard. Many other manufacturers flavorings contain extract or alcohol and many are coil gunkers. If there good try them. I've seen mention from other users and the consensus is there pretty good.

 

[ceeceeisme]

These appear to be extracts...

Any flavoring listed by a manufacturer as "natural flavor" is extract based.
For example, TFA's Absinthe, which is a flavoring derived from extract of Star Anise.

Capella, Inawera, FlavorArt et al, all offer "natural" based flavors. If a flavor is not natural, it is then by default, artificial, ie: man made from a stew of lab produced chemicals (which, btw, were once natural before they were processed into something quite unnatural)

Not sure which is worse when you view it that way. We are sucking this stuff into our lungs after all. Would you prefer your vape to contain natural based flavors or artificial, lab-created flavors?

Another example comes to mind, only because I happen to know about this:

TFA's Maple Syrup flavor ingredients are listed as:
Natural & Artificial Flavors, Propylene Glycol.

So one would assume, looking at the word natural, that there would perhaps be real maple syrup involved in making it but one could not be more incorrect. The maple syrup flavor comes from fenugreek seeds, highly processed and extracted down with other chemicals to produce the "natural" portion of this two pronged equation.

As for the "artificial" ingredients, your guess is as good as mine as to what those are.

And yes, "extracts" and "extract based" is two different things. An extract is a concentrated, pure form of flavoring derived from natural sources.

The terms "natural" and "extract based" are synonymous.

So, in returning to your original statement, if these flavors were pure extracts, they would be listed as such because there is obviously a huge difference between extracts and flavoring.

....but I would not consider them a "Vape-centric" vendor and carefully choose only products they sell that are "currently deemed" (not to be confused with "proven") to be safe for vaping use.

lol... the name FlavourFog doesn't make you go "hmmmm"?

Also, if you look at their recipe kits it should be obvious they ain't for baking cookies.
.
.
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BTW, I've been meaning to tell you that Berry Berry Good recipe you posted for me a while back is just fantastic. So close to Berry Mix by Liqua... just awesome, thank you again - I do appreciate the recipe, it saved me a lot of work.

 

[ceeceeisme]

Further to my above comment:

I am using the word "extract" to encompass a wide variety of descriptive terms and before the debate starts as to what exactly natural flavoring is, consider the FDA's guideline for a food company to use the words "natural" and "flavor" together....

"a natural flavor is the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof"

Then consider that more than 2000 chemicals are combined on average to make just the most common 500 natural flavors available for use in the commercial food industry.

Alternatively, artificial flavoring is a fourth cousin of something that was actually once natural.

Artificial flavoring is associated with health risks when ingested including:

• brain tumors
• cancer
• dizziness
• nausea
• mental confusion
• seizures
• depression
• DNA damage
• allergies
• fatigue
• anxiety attacks
• kidney problems
• high blood pressure

When artificial flavors are inhaled... again, your guess is as good as anybody else's because nobody knows.

Something for everybody to think about today as we happily vape our favorite natural and artificial flavors.

 

[ceeceeisme]

And FWIW, further to my second comment (before someone asks) yes, my background is in chemistry, albeit not in organics but inorganics, specifically metallurgy and specifically as it pertains to titanium and nickel alloys as applied in the civil and defense aerospace industries.

So am I an expert with regards to food grade flavoring? No, I am not however I do have a solid foundation of knowledge in organic chemistry despite my university days being 30 years behind me.

 

[jambi]

If you're good with it, that's what matters. Info I found on this forum long ago advised staying away from naturals like FW's natural line. It made sense at the time. Maybe I understood it wrong.

 

[ceeceeisme]

...Info I found on this forum long ago advised staying away from naturals like FW's natural line....

I would be interested in analyzing that information, if it could be easily located.

And, I think the point I was trying to make could have been made in a simpler way:

Pick up any flavor you have right now, take any random one from any company..........does it list "natural flavor" as one of the ingredients?

If so, that "natural flavor" was derived from an array of organic based essential oils and/or extracts and/or distillates then further processed and diluted with propylene glycol as a carrier.

If that random bottle you picked up simply says "artificial flavor" then I can't even remotely suggest I know what's in that bottle. I could make a couple of educated guesses but ultimately the formulation and process(es) used to arrive at the final compound is proprietary.

And with that I'll give you a little smiley face because you've got some great recipes.

 

[dannyv45]

This thread is a very interesting read and pretty much what I suspected in regards to the long standing debate over natural Vs. artificial. ceeceeisme you bring up some very important, thought provoking points and I would love to see this discussion continue.

I am not by any means a chemist but I do know that just because a flavor is labeled natural does not necessarily mean it needs to be avoided. You just need to be aware of the ingredients. Specifically what natural extracts are safe and which are not. Many organics are safe such as orange, vanilla or lemon but on the other hand some may contain oils or other byproducts which are not safe. The key is knowing which are which and here is where much discussion and education is needed.

All in all this is a great start so good job on opening up conversation on this and I hope it continues. I will be following this discussion closely.

 

[ceeceeisme]

This thread is a very interesting read and pretty much what I suspected in regards to the long standing debate over natural Vs. artificial. ceeceeisme you bring up some very important, thought provoking points and I would love to see this discussion continue.

I am not by any means a chemist but I do know that just because a flavor is labeled natural does not necessarily mean it needs to be avoided. You just need to be aware of the ingredients. Specifically what natural extracts are safe and which are not. Many organics are safe such as orange, vanilla or lemon but on the other hand some may contain oils or other byproducts which are not safe. The key is knowing which are which and here is where much discussion and education is needed.

All in all this is a great start so good job on opening up conversation on this and I hope it continues. I will be following this discussion closely.

Thank you for your input dannyv45.

I think the interesting thing, from a chemistry stand point, is that both natural and artificial flavors are probably about the same as far as inhalation is concerned, that is, they are likely both about equally bad (with the exception of flavors that contain diketones which are already deemed to be potentially hazardous for inhalation and which are in most cases, only slightly worse than the aforementioned statement of equally bad). I am more than willing to stand corrected on this statement should someone care to provide me with data that proves otherwise. Food grade flavoring never was and still is not being produced specifically for inhalation. They are made to be ingested and in some cases, are questionable at best even for this application.

Flavoring manufacturers exist to produce profits for their stakeholders and because there is a demand. They have no mandate nor directives nor moral obligation to compel them to do otherwise. If somebody started a fad whereby you insert food grade flavorings into your anus these companies would be only too happy to sell you some. They may be responsive to a subset of consumers but are not actively engaged in research to make flavors safe as such or to prove them safe. They can and will make them safer (ie; by removing diketones from some products) which will help them maintain or increase their market share, which brings me back to my original statement on why they exist. Proving them safe is the forte of independent third party institutions, generally university and government research labs.

I do have some other thoughts I would like to add and I will get to them shortly - right now I have to run as I have a previous engagement that needs attending to.

 

[ceeceeisme]

Since my OP has gone wildly off topic I will try to keep this succinct.

I never meant to jump on anybody however I was dismayed to see two well respected members of this forum chime in with what I perceived as negative comments with regards to FF Professional Flavouring (a manufacturer with literally decades of experience in the production of food grade flavoring as opposed to say, TFA, who by their own admission has been in the game for a scant 7 years). I suspect it may be because FF Pro is a relative unknown here in North America as I don't see their product line being carried by any of the more popular US based DIY websites.

That being said, one needs to keep an active mind in todays increasingly complex world. Globally, there are literally hundreds of companies engaged in the production of food grade flavorings and additives. The vast majority of these companies do not offer any product lines directly to the consumer. In the coming decades, as vaping goes more mainstream, we will see a multitude of new product lines from companies we've never heard of being offered for the home mixer as more manufacturers search for ways to expand their revenue stream.

I have other things I could add - my thoughts on the FDA's GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) designations would be one topic I could discuss at length but won't for the purposes of this thread.

And with that, now back to your regularly scheduled vape.

 

[IDJoel]

It's your thread. You are the ONLY one who can't go off-topic (other than by your own preferences). Take it where you like!

The question I have (and it really is a question; not a criticism) is: if they (Foodie Flavours) are an established mfg. (not arguing that they aren't), why is there almost no support/mention here in the U.S.? Other Euro-centric mfgs. have done quite well in the U.S. vaping community (I am thinking Inawera, and Flavour Art). While other U.S. based mfgs. that were widely used in the early days (LorAnn, McCormick, & Watkins) have fallen to the background due to their strong dependence on alcohol and oils as their primary choice of carriers. This doesn't mean they are "bad" (well the oils are for vapors; but not for food/beverage use). It simply means they are no longer "preferred." Could this be true for Foodie too?

I honestly don't know; I'm simply asking.

ETA: re-reading this, it sounded like I was saying that because it wasn't widely known in the U.S., it wasn't used in vaping. That was NOT what I meant. That is merely the ONLY experience I have with flavors; so that is only where I can speak from. I am only voicing my own limited experience; not saying the U.S. has some divine knowledge on the subject.

 

[ceeceeisme]

It's your thread. You are the ONLY one who can't go off-topic (other than by your own preferences). Take it where you like!

The question I have (and it really is a question; not a criticism) is: if they (Foodie Flavours) are an established mfg. (not arguing that they aren't), why is there almost no support/mention here in the U.S.? Other Euro-centric mfgs. have done quite well in the U.S. vaping community (I am thinking Inawera, and Flavour Art). While other U.S. based mfgs. that were widely used in the early days (LorAnn, McCormick, & Watkins) have fallen to the background due to their strong dependence on alcohol and oils as their primary choice of carriers. This doesn't mean they are "bad" (well the oils are for vapors; but not for food/beverage use). It simply means they are no longer "preferred." Could this be true for Foodie too?

I honestly don't know; I'm simply asking.

ETA: re-reading this, it sounded like I was saying that because it wasn't widely known in the U.S., it wasn't used in vaping. That was NOT what I meant. That is merely the ONLY experience I have with flavors; so that is only where I can speak from. I am only voicing my own limited experience; not saying the U.S. has some divine knowledge on the subject.

I don't know the definitive answer to that any more than you do lol.

However, I do have some thoughts.

A cursory search of British based DIY websites reveals a host of other "companies and brands" being offered for the DIYer. I won't say they are all engaged in the actual manufacture of flavorants because it appears (to me anyway) that some of these product lines have simply been rebranded as "house brands" and the actual manufacturer of the flavoring is not noted (as I suppose that is not a legal requirement in the UK).

There is a host of companies I've never heard referenced on this forum or anywhere else:

Pope and Brewer's Gourmet Flavours
The Flavour Concentrate Company
FF Professional Flavouring
Red Mercury Flavour Concentrates
T-Juice Concentrates
Vapable Flavour Concentrates (interesting to note that it seems perfectly legal to promote them as "vapable" over there)
Bakery Clouds
Delish Fish DIY
Vampire Vape
Quack's Juice Factory
Decadent Vapours
VaperCrew
and more...

I know some of these names sound like they are for actual e-liquid lines, but if you look for yourself, they are actually flavoring concentrate lines.
Flavour Concentrates for DIY E Liquid

I would also note that along with these unfamiliar product lines are also most of the familiar ones widely available here in the US and Canada.

So, I would speculate, that the reason you don't see any of these product lines available or widely used on this side the the Atlantic would have something to do with logistical reasons.

If you owned a DIY business (brick & mortar and/or website), just how many product lines would you want to carry? As previously mentioned, there are quite literally hundreds of food grade flavoring manufacturers worldwide. What is your cut off
point? Do you want to carry 10 brands? How about 20 brands? At what point to you reach saturation? How many are going to sit on the shelf and expire when you have that broad of an offering to a decidedly limited, niche clientele? If you are a US
based business, are you going to promote domestic products or are you going to import (with all the associated costs involved)?

Another thing I would like to point out, what I believe most Americans wouldn't consider, is just how much influence US products carry on a global scale. You live in a country of 316 million people (as of 2013) - Great Britian and Canada combined are only 94 million (also 2013 stats). If you live in the UK and make DIY e-liquids, odds are you are already familiar with US product lines as well as product lines produced in your own country. On the flip side of this is the American DIYer who is generally familiar with the offerings of his or her favorite supplier(s), most of which are US based. FlavourArt and Inawera have made inroads in the US however I do not know the specifics of how that came to be. Was it because their marketing efforts were better than others? Do they offer a higher profit margin to resellers? What other variables could there be? To these questions I don't know the answers.

Did you know there is a Canadian flavoring company hawking their wares for DIYers? Probably not, however I am well aware of them. I hope that illustrates my point as I do not mean it in any sort of demeaning or derogatory way. Most of us are aware of what's going on around us, not necessarily what's going on in other countries.

I do note many of the above listed British lines are prominently noted on the UK DIY websites as Made in the UK. People everywhere like to keep their business dealings local - nothing at all wrong with that philosophy.

A quick search of other European DIY websites will turn up even more product lines we've never heard of and will also turn up the familiar ones as well.

So I submit to you - the answer to your query is:
there likely are lots of reasons, none of them specifically weighted in any one direction.

 

[IDJoel]

I won't say they are all engaged in the actual manufacture of flavorants because it appears (to me anyway) that some of these product lines have simply been rebranded as "house brands" and the actual manufacturer of the flavoring is not noted (as I suppose that is not a legal requirement in the UK).

I totally agree. When I first started dabbling in DIY; it was because a local brick and mortar carried two lines. LorAnn and a "house label" which they freely admitted to being TPA/TFA.

If you owned a DIY business (brick & mortar and/or website), just how many product lines would you want to carry? As previously mentioned, there are quite literally hundreds of food grade flavoring manufacturers worldwide. What is your cut off
point?

I am also in agreement that I couldn't begin to imagine what sort of nightmare it must be to try to make a living by selling concentrates from just one manufacturer... let alone multiple. That was what provoked me to start shopping on line (I have always tried to support local merchants first). My poor local B & M couldn't stay in stock or carry all the various flavors that I wanted to try (and had no clue whether I would ever want to purchase again).

I hope that illustrates my point as I do not mean it in any sort of demeaning or derogatory way.

Perfect illustration and no offense taken (nor was there any reason to). I know we Americans can, and often do, forget there is a whole world beyond our borders; and they are conducting business every day. Many are uninclined, unwilling, or just don't have the capacity, to conduct business in the states. That is why I wont even pretend to have an opinion on Foodie Flavours... "I got no clue!"
Best wishes on your research!