Fired for smoking e cig at work?!

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VapingRulz

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Here's a novel idea. Instead of arguing amongst ourselves, why don't we use that energy to educate the people "out there" who think vaping is smoking?

And while we're at it, how about we get rid of the words "e-cig" and "electronic cigarettes" - because nothing screams "SMOKING" louder than the word cigarette?

I'm an old lady who has made more than my fair share of mistakes - and will likely make many more before I'm cremated - but gee whiz. Use all that energy "out there" - educating the powers that be - so people don't have to stealth vape or be under bans that are meant for smoking tobacco products - cigarettes!!

We have a fundamental ideological split in the vaping community.

On one side you have those who insist that we treat vaping the same as smoking and confine vaping to smoking areas. They seek to avoid confrontation, which isn't a bad thing unless it goes too far.

The other side disagrees wholeheartedly because it's like an admission of guilt; it's like saying that vaping and smoking are one and the same. Why should vapers be treated like smokers when they are not smoking? (This is the side I'm on, in case it isn't obvious.)

Many vapers fall somewhere in the middle. They know that they shouldn't be classed as smokers but they don't want to be vaping activists. Who can blame them?

It has become abundantly clear that state and local governments, as well as many corporations, find it very convenient to lump vaping into the smoking category. They don't have science on their side and as I said, they don't care.

CASAA does a great job with educating the public and decision makers but it's very slow going.

I'm all for renaming ecigs and calling them something more appropriate. If there's one place where a renaming has a good chance of catching on with vapers, it's here on ECF.
 

swedishfish

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VapingRulz my Mom is in your camp, she's loud and proud. She also likes to play the 'I'm old and can do what I want' card and it's working for her. In the hospital, she was vaping away (Dr said she could). She had her bright pink Riva, with the black carto and a turquoise drip tip. I started laughing when I saw her, it looked like she got her pv at the circus. No stealth vaping for her.
 

zoiDman

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I didn't see that! You're so sweet, and a smarty pants too! I learn a lot from your posts. :wub:

We may occasional disagree on something's but I always have gotten something out of reading your posts. I also appreciate you helping Newbies in the New Members section.

And yes. I have been called a Smarty Pants by more people than I can remember. :D
 

Bauzen

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I work at an investment bank and vape right at my desk. I'm often cautious about looking around before getting going, but I don't think I'll have too many issues, even if someone sees. The woman in the neighboring cube says it doesn't bother her, that she's actually proud of me for not smoking actual cigarettes anymore.
 

swedishfish

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I work at an investment bank and vape right at my desk. I'm often cautious about looking around before getting going, but I don't think I'll have too many issues, even if someone sees. The woman in the neighboring cube says it doesn't bother her, that she's actually proud of me for not smoking actual cigarettes anymore.

Wow! That's excellent and shocking! I thought NY had the same crazy laws as NJ.
 

yagottawanna

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The woman in the neighboring cube says it doesn't bother her, that she's actually proud of me for not smoking actual cigarettes anymore.

Now if we could just get the "powers that be" to see it that way, maybe we wouldn't have to be vaping in closets; stealth vaping; or enduring the rolling eyes - complete with the idiotic statements like, "Eeeew.. That tobacco stinks to high heavens.." (cough, cough, cough). Do we have a "rolling eyes" smilie here?
 

brittanyNI

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There are a lot of issues here but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

Theoretically, employees and employers are on equal terms and either one can terminate their engagement at anytime for any reason. But the reality is that there is a tremendous differential in power, which is why the employer gets to hand the employee a 200 page book of rules instead of the other way around, and why government intervened to impose laws preventing discrimination on the basis of things like race or to impose a 40 hour work week. The simple fact is that if the parties were equally powerful, no such government intervention would be required to prevent injustices. But since such intervention is required, it should be understood that the employer is generally the more powerful of the two parties.

Yes, an employer can impose any rule it desires so long as that rule doesn't violate any laws. As an employer I can also mandate urine tests for caffeine metabolites and fire anyone who drinks coffee if that floats my boat. Whether I SHOULD -- that is, whether such a thing is in my self-interest -- is another matter.

The basis for banning e-cig use by employees is straightforward. Smoking is a hazard and increases the cost of providing healthcare coverage. Banning smoking by employees reduces costs. The current method of monitoring compliance is checking for cotinine, a nicotine metabolite. This test does not distinguish the means of nicotine consumption -- merely that nicotine has been consumed. The use of e-cigs would be banned because were it not banned it would be impossible (without switching to a different test) to distinguish between smokers and non-smokers and would thus negate the smoking ban.

Furthermore, even in places that do not ban all smoking (even at home) by employees (Wow! Talk about Power! The power to control what you do on your own time and dime!) or monitor compliance through urinalysis; there is the issue of avoiding misunderstandings. The simple fact is that exhaling vapor looks like smoking and allowing it in areas that are non-smoking will lead to complaints by ignorant persons. As an employer, it might not be my job to educate employees about the e-cig industry and it is frankly just easier to ban it and that way I don't have to deal with misunderstandings.

Should they ban e-cigs? No. But CAN they? Absolutely. They can because there is an enormous power differential between employers and employees -- a power differential so great that the only way to prevent racial discrimination was to pass legislation with serious teeth. If, sans legal restrictions, employers could essentially ban people of certain races, they are quite certainly powerful enough to ban e-cigs unless legislation prevents it.

This is a fight that must be dealt with legislatively. Only at that level is there sufficient power to trump employers.

Next is a related issue. For quite some time there has been a deliberate psychopathologization of smoking and smokers. This is a tried and true technique that ultimately makes people who smoke see themselves as bad people, inferior, deserving of bad treatment, etc. for that behavior. People who smoke (or used to smoke) need to shake off this deliberately induced self-loathing mindset because it has no basis in reality.

People all over this country are addicted to a variety of legally prescribed psychoactive medications. Antidepressants, benzos, amphetamines and more. Yet, this is not psychopathologized. Drinking, a behavior tied in some persons to violence and quite often to the harm of innocent third parties, is not psychopathologized. It is time to understand that nicotine has been singled out unfairly, and its users singled out unfairly. There is nothing wrong with people for using nicotine.

Before we can be successful in advocating on behalf of our ability to do something that harms no third parties and quite likely doesn't even harm ourselves, we first have to shake the unfairly and deliberately induced mindset that use of nicotine in and of itself is wrong, shameful, evil, nasty, and something to be swept under the rug as though it were incest.

The solution is legislative. The precondition is self-knowledge that advocating for such legislation is morally RIGHT.
 

Credo

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There are a lot of issues here but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

BrittanyNI, what a superb post!
Hats off to you on that speech....

I much agree that it has transgressed from a health concern to a civil rights issue of sorts.

Do the ends always justify the means?

Asking a smoker to pay more for health coverage, because he is a higher risk is reasonable. Then again, where does it stop? There's all sorts of things people do to raise their risk levels in a health insurance pool.

Shoving any of them into a class or category of people who can be discriminated against is serious matter.
 
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yagottawanna

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The current method of monitoring compliance is checking for cotinine, a nicotine metabolite. This test does not distinguish the means of nicotine consumption -- merely that nicotine has been consumed. The use of e-cigs would be banned because were it not banned it would be impossible (without switching to a different test) to distinguish between smokers and non-smokers and would thus negate the smoking ban.

Wonderful post! Question: If someone is wearing a nicotine patch, does that show up in the test? How about the gum? Are those people considered "smokers" and told to hit the road?



This is a fight that must be dealt with legislatively. Only at that level is there sufficient power to trump employers.

Much as I hate "Big Brother", I tend to agree.

Next is a related issue. For quite some time there has been a deliberate psychopathologization of smoking and smokers. This is a tried and true technique that ultimately makes people who smoke see themselves as bad people, inferior, deserving of bad treatment, etc. for that behavior. People who smoke (or used to smoke) need to shake off this deliberately induced self-loathing mindset because it has no basis in reality.

I'll be the first to raise my hand and wave it frantically in the air. Non-smokers have done an excellent job of making me feel like - for lack of a better phrase - a "scum bag". Thus my reason for ordering the particular PV kit that I received last Thursday - a device that looks nothing like a cigarette and does not "light up" on the end. Once I have mastered this new world of vaping, this cranky old lady might very well pop someone in the mouth if they have the gall to tell me that I'm still smoking.:mad:

This is also why I take issue with the words "e-cig" or "electronic cigarettes". As I mentioned previously, nothing screams SMOKING as loud as the word cigarette.



Before we can be successful in advocating on behalf of our ability to do something that harms no third parties and quite likely doesn't even harm ourselves, we first have to shake the unfairly and deliberately induced mindset that use of nicotine in and of itself is wrong, shameful, evil, nasty, and something to be swept under the rug as though it were incest.

I could definitely use some tips in that area. Suggestions?

The solution is legislative. The precondition is self-knowledge that advocating for such legislation is morally RIGHT.

Wonderful, wonderful post. Thank you so very much for sharing your thoughts. I think it should be "required reading" here.:)
 

brittanyNI

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Question: If someone is wearing a nicotine patch, does that show up in the test? How about the gum? Are those people considered "smokers" and told to hit the road?

Yes, any intake of nicotine gets metabolized into cotinine. There is an "allowable threshold" to take into account second-hand smoke or nicotine intake via eggplant or peppers; but anything over that threshold corresponds to nicotine usage. It doesn't matter whether it came from gum, patches, smoking, vaping, etc. it shows up the same. The companies that have adopted urine tests don't just have a "no smoking" policy -- they effectively have a "no nicotine" policy.

Theoretically, they could also have a no sudafed and no aspirin policy as well; as these are also legally available over the counter drugs.

Much as I hate "Big Brother", I tend to agree.
I hate big brother as well. But the purpose of government, at least as defined in the Declaration of Independence, is to secure our liberty. This particular use of government is not a mandate that anyone do anything, but rather that they refrain from infringing our rights. True rights impose only a negative obligation upon others -- i.e. an obligation for non-interference with our exercise. My exercise of free speech requires only that others not interfere. So this is not very big-brotherish. It is essentially telling people to leave me alone so long as I am harming nobody. Ideally, people wouldn't even need to be told.

I'll be the first to raise my hand and wave it frantically in the air. Non-smokers have done an excellent job of making me feel like - for lack of a better phrase - a "scum bag". I could definitely use some tips in that area. Suggestions?

We are social creatures, and as a result our basic need to feel acceptance and social approval can be used to manipulate our perceptions. Classic experiments on peer pressure show that people will question themselves when they are the only person in a room with a certain answer -- even if that answer is extremely obviously correct. Other experiments show that ordinary people can be induced to do really horrendous things both as compliance to authority figures and to merely fit in.

Most of these experiments were done in the wake of the Holocaust to answer the underlying question of how people could have possibly been induced to participate in something so horrible. And the sad answer is that though the behaviors were uniquely evil, the persons involved did not have special propensities; and that given the proper environment, basic human drives that affect all of us can be used to induce perceptions and even behaviors that are well beyond evil.

These same techniques are used to manipulate you into feeling shamed, worthless, scummy and ultimately compliant. What makes them even more powerful is that those who do not smoke also get to feel superior on the basis -- not of something they do that is virtuous -- but on the basis of something they do NOT do. So it is a form of what I would call effortless virtue that allows one group of people to feel superior to another group just by virtue of their existence. This superior group will naturally feel entitled to mistreat the inferior group; even though those designations are entirely arbitrary and have no real basis. The prison guard experiments from the 1960's showed this in miniature.

But there are ways out of this trap. For example, in peer pressure experiments, the odds of a person having the courage to give a correct answer were dramatically improved if just one other person in a group was willing to give the right answer.

Be that one person -- the person who stands up, and who gives others courage. Soon, you will not be alone.

That is hard to do for a couple of reasons. The first is obvious -- fear of social disapproval. The second is less obvious, but is something called soft totalitarianism. Soft totalitarianism is a way of causing social compliance through indirect economic sanction rather than through the more obvious means of thugs visiting in the middle of the night.

The original poster's fear of being summarily fired is an example of the power of soft totalitarianism. He was doing nothing morally wrong. He wasn't hurting anybody, stealing anything, defrauding anyone or anything of the sort. All he did was harmlessly vape in a private area. Yet, because he was under unknown video surveillance, even though he was not smoking, he was fearful of extreme economic sanction merely due to how what he was doing *might have appeared.*

Although it isn't widely publicized, employers have a right to fire people for their outside-of-work political advocacies and, in fact, it goes on quite often in this country; and only one state (CA) has laws preventing it. This is a way of enforcing compliance even with expressed thought without having to employ thugs. Quite creative.

I have the luxury of being mainly self-employed as a writer. But what I do is, albeit politely, I vape obviously. I use long (120-155mm) slender but non-white vaping devices in public places. Everybody knows my long green, purple and black devices with green and blue lights are not cigarettes. And when I do so, I use ostentatious open-mouthed and snap inhales and so forth. I actually make a conscious effort to make it look sexy and alluring. I have some cards from V4L and SmokeAnywhereFor Pennys that I hand to anyone who inquires. In this way, I gain public support and raise awareness.

You probably can't vape openly at work at your desk and I wouldn't suggest single-handedly taking on the machine. But instead I'd suggest doing what I do -- vape in public where it is seen, and hand cards to those who inquire. By vaping in public for all to see, you give courage to others and demonstrate that you don't feel you are doing anything wrong, which will help you buck the social conditioning.
 

Outre

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I'm a little disappointed in some replies in this thread.

While I agree that people need to use common sense and if they feel the need to "hide" then it probably isn't okay to vape openly, so only vape (outside, etc.) where it won't cause trouble - but...

Could you folks have used any more vitriol than you did here?

Are your fists infected yet from pounding your personal pulpits to splinters?

Being nasty is not necessary, it's a character flaw.

Level-headed responses backed up with logic go further, and are appreciated much more broadly, than trying to beat someone to death with angry rhetoric.

If you're tired of new folks, and the understandable mistakes they make, then perhaps abstaining from the New Members Forum for a while would do everyone some good.
 
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yagottawanna

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I have the luxury of being mainly self-employed as a writer. But what I do is, albeit politely, I vape obviously. I use long (120-155mm) slender but non-white vaping devices in public places. Everybody knows my long green, purple and black devices with green and blue lights are not cigarettes. And when I do so, I use ostentatious open-mouthed and snap inhales and so forth. I actually make a conscious effort to make it look sexy and alluring. I have some cards from V4L and SmokeAnywhereFor Pennys that I hand to anyone who inquires. In this way, I gain public support and raise awareness.

You probably can't vape openly at work at your desk and I wouldn't suggest single-handedly taking on the machine. But instead I'd suggest doing what I do -- vape in public where it is seen, and hand cards to those who inquire. By vaping in public for all to see, you give courage to others and demonstrate that you don't feel you are doing anything wrong, which will help you buck the social conditioning.

Thanks for responding to all of my questions - and yet again, another excellent post!

I don't work - retired old lady - but there are a couple of people I have to be in contact with on a daily basis at least 6 months out of the year who tend to be extremely condescending and superior in their attitudes towards me. Have you ever tried to educate someone on a subject who has no interest in being educated because they already "know it all"? That's the kind of people I'm dealing with. Arrrrgh.

Where did you get these cards that you hand people? Not sure it would do any good, but it's worth a shot. Unfortunately these are people I can't avoid and due to certain circumstances, I have to remain civil, polite, and "friendly" with them.

Suggestions?
 
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