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First E cig public issue

Discussion in 'E-Cigarettes in Public' started by fliphusker, Jun 16, 2015.

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  1. fliphusker

    fliphusker Full Member

    Apr 13, 2015
    Kearney, Nebraska
    I have been vaping off and on for a few years now, put down the last analog in March. (Yay me!) I have never once had an issue with anyone with me vaping, until today. Was at he local Hy Vee having lunch with my sister and cousin who were in town when an older feller said something. I did not catch it at first as he was a good 15 feet away at another table. So I look at the guy and he points right at me me and says to a guy that is working "He is smoking, that is illegal". I simply say that I am vaping, and not smoking. The guy yells it again. The poor guy he is telling this to is a special needs fellow who is working picking up trays and he does not know what to do and is flustered.
    I get up and leave the area with my sister and cousin as I do not want to cause any issues. I really felt sorry for the guy working as he did not understand what the issue was with the older guy and frankly was embarrassed. I do not really care that the guy was rude to me, but he was rude to the guy working, as he had no clue that the guy had special needs. Really pissed me off that the guy was just another ignorant person, who had no idea what he was spouting off about or even talking to.
    I need to read through here and see how others handle situations like this, as I was taken aback by it. Guess I just wanted to vent over it, so thanks for taking the time to read.
     
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  2. mauricem00

    mauricem00 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2015
    carson city nevada
    when I was younger I use to enjoy walking into crowded elevators with an unlit cigarette between my fingers to see how many people would have asthma attacks. when I pointed out that it was not lit it was surprising how quickly their attack stopped and how angry they got.the only way I have found to deal with fools and idiots is to let them demonstrate their arrogance and ignorance. some people need someone to hate to feel good about themselves.to bad children and impaired adults need to suffer because of them
     
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  3. kaahn

    kaahn Super Member

    Mar 26, 2015
    Eastern NC
    Why were you even vaping in a restaurant? I am just wondering why even push the boundaries and vape places you know will raise eyebrows and add questions to an already highly scrutinized habit in the first place. You had to have known someone might take issue vaping in a restaurant. It is this that is going to throw a even a bigger black cloud over an already volitile issue. I mean I personally don't have an issue with it...but its obvious there are a lot of folks that have no clue what vaping is and no matter what are going to lump it together with smoking. It's this negative percieved view that is going to assist even further and harsher regulation. Just sayin.
     
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  4. Jman8

    Jman8 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2013
    Wisconsin
    I had to look at your join date before I replied.

    Not even worth a rebuttal. Though perhaps I'll come back in a little while and we can have a fun debate that others will join in on and it'll go for 45 pages.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. fliphusker

    fliphusker Full Member

    Apr 13, 2015
    Kearney, Nebraska
    Edited as i guess maybe I misread what your intent was. Thought you were trolling me, but maybe that was not what you were intending to do.
     
  6. classwife

    classwife Admin
    Asst Classifieds Mgr
    Ask The Vets Mgr
    Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    knock it off


    This is not the way we speak with fellow members here
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. Lessifer

    Lessifer Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    I think you either misread or misquoted. Jman8 was responding to kaahn, which I'll also do in my next post. Trust me, he has no problem with what you were doing.

    ETA:
    As for your OP, I think you handled it well. You could have confronted the person, and maybe they would have listened to you, but most likely he would have just become more irate.

    Sometimes you can use occasions like this to educate someone, sometimes you can't. You just have to read the situation, which I think you did correctly.
     
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  8. Lessifer

    Lessifer Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Vaping is not smoking. If the establishment is not against you vaping inside, why should you not? If you ban yourself from vaping where smoking is not allowed, because you don't want them to ban vaping where smoking is not allowed, what have you gained?

    This is not to say you shouldn't be courteous to others, and it sounds like the OP was being very courteous. Someone took issue with what he was doing and instead of making a scene(which I might have done), he got up and left.
     
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  9. edyle

    edyle ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nobody knows what situation you are talking about.

    In my case I have no idea what a Hy Vee is.
    It makes a difference if it is an outdoor situation or an indoor and especially airconditioned situation.
    It makes a difference is you are using a little white cigalike that looks like a cigarette, or vaping at 100 watts blowing fog which I doubt is what you were doing.

    One reasonable guess is that you were vaping in a place that you wouldn't have smoked. That is not a comment on the issue of people vaping where they would not have smoked, it is a comment/example of what you have not described about the 'situation' leaving us to guess at.
     
  10. fliphusker

    fliphusker Full Member

    Apr 13, 2015
    Kearney, Nebraska
    Hy Vee is a grocery store chain that has a buffet and the seating is I guess what you would call a food court. well ventilated with ceilings guess at least 50 feet tall and that is open to the grocery store.
    Guess one thing I have not really put much thought into is the fact about vaping where I would not have smoked before. This would have been a borderline place, but probably leaning towards no. I did have my Protank mini with my MVP 3 set to 1 hole, so not big clouds but not a lil cigarillo either.
    So I assume that people are split a bit here on if you would not smoke there before then you would not vape now?

    My take on the situation was that the guy thought I was smoking, and was trying to raise a stink about it. when I told him I was vaping he either did not understand or simply did not care. he also had no clue/did not care about the guy with his limitations. I was not going to confront the guy and give him a bit of an education, as did not want to pull the worker into the situation nor make the other guy get more upset.
    I live in a college town and the bars here have no issues, as have asked the owners of them several times about complaints.
     
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  11. redrebel821

    redrebel821 ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 8, 2015
    Houston area
    I try and walk a fine line between the smoking and vaping worlds. If I wouldn't have lit a cigarette there, I won't vape there, either. It's good that you left the situation before it turned volatile, and that you understand the reasoning behind what happened. Some people are always going to see us as "smokers"... Some are open to learning what the difference is, some aren't.
     
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  12. kaahn

    kaahn Super Member

    Mar 26, 2015
    Eastern NC
    Join date has nothing to do with it. I look forward to the 45th page ;)
     
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  13. kaahn

    kaahn Super Member

    Mar 26, 2015
    Eastern NC
    I agree. I think the op handled the situation great. I'm just saying that it wasn't necessary to even have the situation to begin with. Until there is a more distinguishable line within the general public between vaping and smoking we all should be more mindful that we watch our p's and q's. Right now there is not. I mean how many of you still get funny looks from people that don't know what you're doing. Hell, there was even a post where a woman called the law on a guy because she thought he was smoking something he shouldn't be smoking. She even followed the guy till the cops arrived. And that was in his own car on a public road.
     
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  14. Jugband

    Jugband Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 10, 2013
    PA, USA
    This is something I'm torn about. Being I've had two different experiences. First, once I attend a country concert at a roadhouse. I checked with a manager about vapeing, showed her my setup. She said as long as it doesn't look like a cigarette your fine. After dinner I started to vape with managements blessing. A very rude bouncer waved a huge finger in my face and yelled "No smoking!" I tried to explain to no avail. I looked at my friend and said lets get out of here. We left and never returned. We were livid! Then again...I meet my elderly mother for lunch every Saturday at the food court in a local mall. Much, much different setting. One Saturday she asked startled "Where is that smoke coming from?" I turned to see a huge "Cloud" I just assured her it was nothing. And thought to myself, how rude. MO, we need to use a little common sense, and find a happy medium. In the first case I felt perfectly in the right. A roadhouse, I asked, and was given permission. The second, a food court in the mall? I know it's not smoking, but we have to be considerate to others. We all have rights. IDK, just my thoughts.
     
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  15. Bookworm

    Bookworm Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 16, 2012
    USA
    I would never vape in a restaurant or food court, but that's just me. I would never tell someone else to stop, either. To each his own.
     
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  16. Jman8

    Jman8 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2013
    Wisconsin
    Alright, I'll play ball.

    I vape in restaurants because I enjoy vaping and because I can generally do it in a way that is not bothering fellow patrons. Of course, that is my perception, but is akin to umpteen dozen things I encounter in public that are on par with vaping. Hence, there is a discussion to be had (with society, mass public) and hopefully not a debate on a vaping forum, and yet, these type of threads usually pop up and go on because someone on page 1 or 2 posts things like you did. Thus, there is a counter position to be heard and a discussion to be considered for all vapers going forward.

    Because the boundaries that currently exist are nonsensical and ought to be countered, especially by vapers. If done in an obnoxious way, a vaper would likely, or at least possibly, not get any sympathy from fellow vapers. But in case of OP and in all cases that I've vaped indoors in places where I know policy / law forbids smoking, it is not obnoxious. Or is as obnoxious as someone wandering same establishment with bad breath, heck even just questionable breath. And I, and other vapers, especially on a vaping forum, are going to say it is obnoxious to rule out vaping and treat it as inherently bad when multitude of experiences, and scientific data, and politics are what they are. It is only the political angle, IMO, where your position has any sort of chance of attempting to persuade the pro-vaping position to step back and consider not vaping in these places. But if one does a bit of research on the politics of SMOKING indoors and how that has come about, via large doses of deception, then vaping makes even more sense to be a catalyst for change. So, I proudly go with vape everywhere, with respect. After 4 years, I'm still batting 1.000 (as in zero confrontations) and have vaped in places like hospitals, movie theaters, restaurants, all sorts of retail stores, and several other places. I don't vape in these situations all the time, but generally do not hide in shame when I do desire to vape in these places because the politics do matter and I am prone to behave in one of two ways. If I were confronted, I would plausibly be polite and determine why the policy is what it is, or second way is I may confront and hope the person on the other end is prepared. But as I haven't been confronted in places where I'm fairly certain the policy is no vaping, it really just tells me that it is mostly a non-issue unless someone is vaping with blatant disrespect.

    That a fellow vaper would try and suggest that vaping indoors in public amounts to blatant disrespect is where I, and others here, will enter into a debate.

    Or they might be lead to a positive impact from learning more about vaping from someone who engages in the activity in a respectful way. I acknowledge it could, conceivably, go either way. But in my experiences thus far with vaping indoors it has never gone the way of "something dreadfully wrong has occurred."

    Disagree. It is the ANTZ rhetoric that is the black cloud raining sulfur down on an issue that would be dealt with differently if people weren't made to believe that (dangerous) harm will come to them because someone is vaping within 15 feet of their person.

    It's this exact wording that causes the ongoing debate on forums. This idea that ANTZ and mass public indoctrinated with ANTZ memes that now that vapers are doing stuff indoors, now they'll realize it is time to get harsh with regulations. I call that a false narrative. These policies were being invoked long before there were vapers vaping in public. I would grant that an obnoxious vaper does hurt the cause, but in most of these thread, that is not the impression I believe that is given. I don't see it in OP of this thread, and challenge anyone to find it in the words I have written in this post. Thing is, one could be an obnoxious vaper and do it outdoors, and yet we already have adversaries that have passed policies banning public vaping in outdoor locations. Now, would you say that is because of the bad behavior of some vapers, or more likely due to ANTZ realizing that if they can control the behavior they can shame the entire vape community and further control both the industry and the narrative going forward?
     
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  17. TripleD

    TripleD Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2015
    Shanghai, China
    Wait, did this happened inside the restaurant or outside? I think, any inside public area though vaping won't do any harm, we still need to observe and look who are the crowd. if it was outside. I think, it's not a big deal. I once used it in a restaurant and rather the people beside me was surprised of the smell of the E-cig as it was a fruitty one and they have asked a lot of questions and become interested.
     
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  18. kaahn

    kaahn Super Member

    Mar 26, 2015
    Eastern NC
    I'll take a swing.

    You say you vape in restaurants in a way not to bother fellow patrons but like you said that is your perception. But do you know it doesn't bother anyone? Your perception isn't the only one that matters. Like you said there is always a counter position but I respectfully disagree as I believe there are multiple positions. For instance with the OP's original post

    1. There is of course your position that you quoted above.

    2. There is also the position of the patron. He thought the op was smoking and was verbal about it. He voiced his opinion to the waiter. You can deduct the he has no liking for cigarettes. Where this dislike stems from who knows? Maybe he just was trying to eat a meal in peace without a bunch of smoke being blown around. Or maybe he has some medical condition where he couldn't be around smoke. Maybe just maybe he was with his kids and didn't want his kids around smoke. Who knows? There is a multitude of reasons why he might have raised an issue. Oh... before you say but it isn't smoke...you know that...he doesn't. Bottom line is you don't know his position. Now since he alerts the waiter that brings me to...

    3. The waiter. This is a tricky one for the waiter. Obviously he is hampered by his disability per the op's post. The situation has put him at an awkward position. Maybe its his first day on the job and really doesn't want to be in the middle of a quarrel. Maybe he really doesn't want to cause any trouble but is torn to say something at all to either patron for fear of escalating the situation any further toward him or between the patrons. Maybe he would just like to avoid the situation all together so he wouldn't have to alert a manager for fear it might look bad on him. Only he knows what his position is. Bottom line is you don't. Which brings me to...

    4. The other patrons. I know the op didn't mention there being other patrons but seeing as it is a public place and you mentioned you've been in public umpteen times vaping, or seen things in public that are akin to vaping, I think they are relevant. Hypothetically, the other patrons see the issue transpire. They might have seen you vaping but decided to keep quiet. Maybe they were offended by it and decide to say something to management. Maybe they decide to leave saying nothing at all but are never to return because they don't want to be anywhere that is offensive to them. Maybe they thought for sure that this place would be a nice clean atmosphere to enjoy a meal without offensive smoke. That is, however, what the law states. Yes yes...I know...but its not smoking you say. You know that... but they may not. Maybe they are vapers too. Maybe they say to themselves "hey its ok to vape in here" and pull theirs out from seeing you. I know I don't know what their position is. Do you? Bottom line is no you don't...which brings me to the final position.

    5. The Owner/Manager. Now his position may be from a different perspective. He is trying to run a business where patrons come with some reasonable expectation of pleasurable dining. He is there to make a living to support his family but for some reason his business took in a little less money than the previous month and likewise from the month before that. His sales have dropped off. Why? He ponders this question in his car, on his drive home to his wife and kids, while having a vape. Who knows...maybe its because those patrons that didn't say anything haven't returned? Maybe some of those patrons have returned but brought their vapes and offended more patrons that won't return, because its ok to vape there...I mean hey, they saw you do it so, why not? Ok...ok..I know I'm reaching here but the point is you don't know.

    Your position/perspective isn't the only one. You do not own the place. You do not know what others may be thinking. You don't know what issues they may have. Some you will never know. Some will be verbal as in the first patron. You have no clue, to be quite honest, whether you are hurting the business or helping it. You also wont know for sure if you are being considered obnoxious or not without others speaking up. Some may speak up, I know I would, but most won't. Bottom line is you just don't know.

    What you do know is...vaping is under scrutiny. You know that vaping in public places where smoking is not allowed might raise issues. You also know what vaping is. You also know others may not. You know that there are a lot of folks that think vaping is worse than smoking given your statement concerning Antz and their mass public indoctrination. Yes, I agree that these policies were invoked before this indoctrination but there is no denying that this indoctrination does exist and is helping to progress those policies forward now...and you know this too. You also know that some think it is smoking. Bottom line is there is a time and place for "proper" debate...but not over someone else's lunch. It will just leave a bad taste in there mouth...pun intended. By the way, vaping etiquette is a relevant debate on this forum. Now you know my position. My question is why even throw fuel on that fire in the first place, knowing all this, and vape in places where smoking isn't allowed and further progress these policies? Or maybe you're not.
     
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  19. vapealone

    vapealone Senior Member

    Jun 16, 2015
    I really had to look at your join date first.
    You remind me one of my former neighbors, who lectured me the very first time we met that no pet was allowed in the building.
    Indeed, I happened to move in just days ago or something. And we happened to have an old dog. On top of that, the building in question was a condominium and she owned one of the apartments so she had rights and everything. And I was just Mrs Suchandsuch's new tenant.
    What she didn't know, until I kindly yelled her head of, that the first time I had visited the building was some 35 years back, when it was still under construction to check something in an apartment my parents had been bought and I was still sharing ownership of this apartment with my mum who lived there. It just happened that one of other old-timer rented out here apartment so I moved back to the building again with my family:)
    Oh yes, she was the third or forth owner of her apartment during the years and had been living there for a year or so..

    But it is a boring old story and rather off topic.

    However, I am afraid, the years didn't make me wise enough. Even though I realized that with my very recent registration I should agree with you eagerly to avoid humiliation but I simply couldn't. Arrogance still piss me off.

    Luckily, @redrebel821 was also here and commented something I can wholeheartedly agree with:
    Thanks @redrebel821
    You probably saved me some meaningless pissing match.
     
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  20. Jman8

    Jman8 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2013
    Wisconsin
    I very much believe there are multiple positions, but also see there is a overriding principle that deals with respect. I think we know I could address each of the multiple positions you brought up, but the thing about respect is it generally covers all situations. Plus it is always a two way street. And then there is the factor of being honest, along with courage / toughness.

    Like I brought up example of person with questionable breath. Who gets to determine if questionable is 'bad?' In your many counter positions, it would be everyone but the person who has this going on, and in all your alternate positions the inherent position is that for everyone else it might be bad. Therefore everyone in public with questionable breath ought not to be breathing indoors. That is honestly how I interpret your current argument(s).

    I honestly cannot think of something that in today's ridiculously over sensitive culture that is 100% non-offensive to all people in public. If you can, I would very much like to put it on the table for something where mutual respect will always be met with everyone in public. Cause with vaping in public, in my experience, and I know I am not alone, it is between rare and not at all met with public confrontation. So, if we are only basing it on people who might be offended, but are choosing to remain silent, then I would proffer that this could be said about all conceivable behaviors while in public, and again, invite you to contribute a human behavior that is 100% non-offensive to all people in public.

    Given what we know about what was said in OP, there was one patron that was verbally confrontational, but did not express this counter position in a respectful way. We do know that OP did address the obvious point of concern which amounts to ignorance (plain and simple) and after that, instead of choosing confrontation (which would have some merit) chose instead to vacate the scene to not escalate tension. All respectful from the vaping perspective, including the vaping in the restaurant part. But your position assumes, or asserts, it is blatant disrespect and then goes onto say maybe, possibly everyone else in the restaurant is offended, and therefore no one ought to vape indoors in public.

    As I've said in similar threads, this same logic would apply to outdoor vaping in all public situations if carrying the same rhetoric into those discussions and staying consistent. It could also plausibly apply to situations where vaper is on, or in, own property, and am glad to take up the counter position you are advocating to help make that realization for those who think it cannot possibly apply to outdoors, own car, own home. Admittedly, it would be tougher to argue if the situation is set up with idea that zero people are anywhere near the vaper (or vaper's residence / car), but seemingly if I vape in a hospital and there are zero people anywhere around me, then people still want to argue that it is just plain wrong to vape there. I routinely ask why.

    Do let me know if you know (for certainty) the one behavior which humans can engage in, in any public situation, that will be 100% non-offensive to all people involved. Again, I welcome that to be put on the table, for I think it is highly pertinent to what you are conveying in your current position.

    In answer to your question about why throw fuel on the fire that amounts to plausible further scrutiny for vaping community:

    1 - Because of how I understand / practice respect. Already explained above. This is my #1 reason, though may not be another's.
    2 - Because of current scientific understandings around secondhand vapor and how it does equate to very little to no actual harm being delivered to all persons in the situation. While I may not know for sure that all persons won't be offended, I also do not know this about ANYTHING I do in public. Therefore I stick to principle of #1 and proceed accordingly.
    3 - Because of experience and what my quasi research / anecdotal evidence has provided, which is most people really do not care. Of the people I have asked and who said no, or the stories I've heard on vaping forums, this counter position is laced with ignorance and contempt for vapers/smokers.
    4 - Because I've about had it catering to the ANTZ rhetoric in modern society, and do feel confrontation now has merits. Not in all conceivable situations, but for sure in some.
    5 - Because vaping in public without shame could just as likely lead to further education or people wanting to learn more and accept it more. I think for some this is #1 reason and for me it is a top 5 consideration.

    Your move.
     
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