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First E cig public issue

Discussion in 'General Vaping Discussion' started by fliphusker, Jun 16, 2015.

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  1. Caro123

    Caro123 Super Member

    Apr 11, 2015
    Nova Scotia
    wow oh wow you two like a go at er, personally my vote is for vape where you can whenever you can and darn well look like you are enjoying it :) Jman8 you have my vote for what it's worth in my humble opinion I have an ethical obligation to buck a repressive system ( with some degree of respect and grace ;) )

    re the op who was actually in the situation - heh you did the best you could with what was at hand- if it still niggles at you perhaps you could write a nice letter to the owner manager of the establishment from your perspective of course - perhaps even commending the special needs person for handling a jackass with some grace, probably best not to call the vocal ranger a jackass but heh I am getting to old to be quite as nice :rickroll:

    signed militant smoker
    and darned militant vaper -carolyn
     
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  2. kaahn

    kaahn Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 26, 2015
    Eastern NC
    I concur. There should be respect but like you have iterated it is a two way street. However, your argument does not hold water because that respect was not given by both parties involved. See in order to receive respect one has to first give it. In the op's case he failed to have respect for the patron that was enjoying a meal at a public place who had a reasonable expectation to have his meal in a nice, clean atmosphere. See, I liken respect for example to driving a car on a road. Lets say you are turning left but the car across the way is going straight. You yield to the car going straight because he has the right of way hence showing respect. Now lets say you do not yield and decide to make your turn knowing full well there is a car that is heading straight and it will have to slow down to let you make that turn. In this case respect was not given hence the car going straight lays on the horn, shouts a few curse words and probably throws you the bird. See respect was not given to the car that had the right of way so respect wasn't returned. See the original patron wasn't doing anything offensive to the OP so why would the OP not show respect to him. His actions warranted a response from the patron. Now whether the patron could have raised concerns in a better fashion...that's up for another debate.

    Your example of the person with questionable breath...well albeit I understand how you can relate this to someone vaping in a place that smoking isn't allowed but you fail to realize or you willfully omitted that there is one major difference which renders this example useless. One can not help ones bad breath. They haven't a choice. But the one that is vaping does. This also falls back to your overall argument of respect. The vaper has a choice and in this case his choice was wrong. So I would have to respectfully disagree that it was all respectful from the vaping perspective. Again one has to first show respect to get that same respect back in return.

    You are correct there is no 100% non-offensive behavior. This could have been more easily said with the old cliché "you can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time". Still though this doesn't err to respect but is more of an aggressive stance. Might as well say I'll do what I want when I want where I want and this I fear in most circumstances is disrespectful.

    So to finish up here I will hit your bullet points.

    1. Your understanding of respect is flawed with all do respect. Again you first have to show respect to receive respect in return.

    2. Again, you know the scientific data but the patron does not. Like I said in my preceding post you have no idea what his situation is as well. In this point respect has not been given because you have not taken into consideration all factors. You say yourself you may not know for sure whether your actions will be offensive but this is where common sense should come into the equation.

    3. Again I reference my preceding post...how do you know most people do not care? Bottom line is you don't. Maybe, and this is just a thought, ignorance and contempt for vapers that you are experiencing is stemming from a blatant disregard for your surroundings and others unknown situations.

    4. This is the point I take most issue with. Just because you have "had it" you feel some confrontation has merit. To whom? The Patron? What has he ever done to you? I'm sorry but you seriously contradict your main argument of respect here. If you have issue with ANTZ take it to the ANTZ because being confrontational to the general public isn't furthering our cause.

    5. I am in no way ashamed of my vape. I do not try to hide my vape in hopes it might spark conversation and hopefully more education and acceptance with the overall general public. I do however know holding vaping to a higher standard above and beyond our filthy alternative will raise the overall bar with respect to the general public in hope to receive respect that is truly deserved.

    Check mate?


    On a side note I am enjoying this lively debate Jman88. My thanks to you.
     
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  3. Jman8

    Jman8 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2013
    Wisconsin
    We disagree, perhaps strongly, on this point. I disagree that respect needs to be given to be received. It is quite plausible to receive lots of respect without purposively giving any, and it is plausible to give multiples of respect without receiving it. As I had anticipated, you used the notion of vaping indoors, as inherently disrespectful, and thus you could argue that nearly any action from a fellow patron would be warranted. I feel I covered this in previous post, but will gladly do so again in this one.

    The manner in which the patron raised a concern is the sign of disrespect and central to the current debate. You are suggesting OP was the one in violation first, but this could be said about vaping everywhere, if holding to idea that vaping (indoors) is inherently disrespectful. Feel free to elaborate on what you see as disrespectful, and I'll stay tuned to use same arguments against why vaping anywhere outdoors would also be inherently disrespectful. Like you did say patron has reasonable expectation to have meal in nice, clean atmosphere. We really do not get any sense on whether atmosphere was the issue for the patron, and do get sense that just the appearance is what set this person off. But it is plausible that it was smell / touch of vapor that was the issue. Well, anywhere someone is outdoors, and because of wind factor which no human can control, then this would be equally true. And arguably air outdoors would be cleaner, thus more of an expectation, as indoors, at restaurant, chances are very high that there are already smells, perhaps unwanted that a patron would be subjected to, and know this going in. Not to mention idea that if eating around fellow humans, you might expect to encounter a bunch of sensory items that could be met with hostility or with general sense of acceptance.

    Sure they can. They could wear a mouth filter / mask to help alleviate, likely eradicate any issues from fellow patrons. Most people would say they could just brush their teeth or use mouthwash. To say this could not be helped, is erroneous. It's not like people that don't have bad breath are cut from a different cloth and never do any maintenance to get clean breath.

    There are umpteen other examples I could've chosen, many of which people have a choice, and most of which I think are on par with vaping as a possible nuisance. Though that will be matter of opinion, and yet, OP mentioned this is first time and mentioned only one person who expressed nuisance. So, seems quite likely that most people are either not bothered, or don't wish to raise an issue in public, which strikes me as normal. But a few other examples that could be seen as a nuisance, though I readily admit that not everyone would be bothered by these are:
    - talking on phone in public space (indoors or out)
    - talking in whispering tone in public space
    - walking in an unusual way
    - having odd colored hair, no hair, too much hair, bad hair day
    - wearing very bright clothes, or very bland clothes, or under dressing, or over dressing, or too skimpy
    - sneezing, coughing, sniffling in public space

    I'll stop there, but could easily go one with about 10 to 10,000 more examples. Many of which I either encounter or even engage in myself, and most of which are seemingly accepted / not confronted, even while I could see how someone could claim to be highly offended by it in public, and demonstrate this by being hostile / confrontational.

    Disagreement already stated previously, but again wish to reiterate that idea of vaping (indoors) as inherently disrespectful DOES apply to most to all outdoor locations where people are present. If you feel otherwise, I'll be glad to use your arguments against indoors for why vaping outdoors could plausibly be seen as disrespectful. With wind factor, it is arguably worse than indoors as the vaper never can be certain where their exhale will end up. And putting 2 and 2 together, this would mean own car and own home with windows open would be possible places where it is inherently disrespectful to vape.

    If it is about showing respect (thus the superficial version of respect), then the additional examples I provided above give some insight how it is possible that all things everyone does, all the time, are inherently disrespectful. As I don't think anyone wishes to see through that prism, then it comes down to direct interactions, and to say that a vaper in indoor location is interacting directly is the preposterous point to be made, yet you are trying to make that case. I say this applies to outdoor vaping, and wish to enter into that debate to help make inevitable conclusions of your position more realized.

    Had the patron engaged more respectfully, chances are good OP doesn't even bring this issue to the forum, and still continues to vape indoors with respect. But it is because of the ANTZ allowance in society, in general, to be rude, and treat all smokers/vapers as inherently disrespectful that your argument holds water. IMO, it would be like if we lived in 1950's southern USA, and a person of color walked into a diner and dared to eat there. Any patron that was vocal and confrontational could, by your argument, say the person of color was the one who started off with blatant disrespect by daring to sit down in the diner and eat. And given culture of the times, there would likely be a majority siding with the confrontational person who was rude and mean, and it would either take truly objective (read as honest) person or a good 50 years of hindsight to realize who in the situation was first disrespectful and who was earnestly not trying to disturb fellow patrons.

    Common sense is the 2 way street of respect that I originally wrote about. If I am ignorant to something going on in public, I could be hostile / rude. I see that as an option. But I also see that as my being the one to initiate disrespect. I could also question directly in way that is designed to help me understand, and de-escalate any tension in the situation, starting foremost with myself. To say the vaper is solely responsible here, is the huge divide we are having, but one that I'm glad to keep on elaborating on as may be warranted in ongoing discussion.

    Most people I observe, some of whom I interact with, do not care if I vape indoors in their space. I'm sure if I intentionally exhaled vapor directly into their nostrils they'd let me know in some fashion that they do care and despise my actions. As that has never occurred, and I have vaped in public several times, then it is akin to my saying I don't think people mind the way I walk in public, but for all I know, everyone is secretly harboring enormous amount of resentment toward the way I walk in public and choosing to be silent. Probably writing letters daily to their political representatives telling them that the way Jman walks in public ought to be made illegal and banned from society. None of them have said anything to me, but according to your point here, it is certainly plausible that everyone, everywhere hates the way I walk in public.

    I could plug in a whole bunch of examples here to help make the point.

    I do feel that if I lit up a smoke in about 95% of the places I openly vape that I would not be batting 1.000 in not being met with public confrontation. But I am with vaping (batting 1.000). I do think if vaping goes the way that smoking has, that in about 5 years, I could vape outdoors, and people could come up to me from 30 feet away and let me know that it is illegal in that location (even if its not) and that I have harmed them directly and that I should know by then that vapor is extremely bothersome to everyone.

    If someone is confronting me with ignorance about vaping / SHV, then I think I could be overly assertive in setting the matter straight with regards to how exactly harmless SHV is. This would greatly depend on my mood and/or how disrespectful the person confronting me is, plus how utterly ridiculous their statements are. Like if someone came up to me with their child, from what seems to me like outta nowhere, and for argument sake, let's say I'm outdoors, and they start claiming that my vapor will cause their child's growth to be stunted, and are yelling at me, I may a) walk away (and laugh to myself), b) politely ask them to back the claim up, wondering where they got this information from, or c) yell back and assert both my position, what I deem to be truth (of SHV). Someone catching the tail end of this interaction might think to themselves, wow that vaper was harsh with that person and the child.

    I am, by having a discussion with you.

    I don't think you are even close to full blown ANTZ agent, by I do think there is a little ANTZ in most people given the indoctrination over past 50 years, and so I'm glad to write openly on this topic for all to see and hopefully rethink how drastic things have become. The 1950's example I brought up earlier seems about right, even while I recognize the civil rights issues of that time were far more meaningful and way tougher given the historical battle. But the justifications to be rude and then treat rudeness as righteous and vaping/smoking as inherently disrespectful does strike me as a very similar perspective.

    I do wish vaping in public sparked more conservations for me than it currently does. Probably good that it doesn't as there are times where I think I would've gone off because of my mood, but that is rare. I'm fairly tame in person and not shy in social settings, so I think I could plant a seed or two without visibly changing someone's position in such an interaction, and also knowing the other party would very unlikely change my position.

    Most of the time I vape in public, it truly is a non issue, and thus the examples I raised earlier are not exaggerations. It is akin to someone walking up to me and getting hostile with the way I walk. That's never happened to me. Just like I have never been confronted in rude way in public while vaping, and I don't see too many on forums who openly admit doing it in hospital type setting. I think that is still one of the better indoor spaces as a hospital has places where sure it would be weird/rude, but umpteen dozen other places where literally no one would see you even if you sung "Smoking In The Boys Room" fairly loud while doing it. I would vape in a hospital before I would a restaurant or smaller store, but as I've done it in both those places too, then the type of place I wouldn't vape is currently unknown to me. The situation in which I wouldn't vape is more known to me. When given opportunity to vape in a small shop that was a vape shop, I chose not to. And it made very good sense to me in the moment to not vape there.

    Cool. I hope the lurkers feel the same way.
     
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  4. LewAz

    LewAz Senior Member

    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free - President Ronald Reagan
     
  5. rgerber

    rgerber Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 30, 2014
    Prescott, AZ USA
  6. Tmg666

    Tmg666 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 5, 2014
    Green bay, Wisconsin
    Its only the 2nd page get posting, 43 more pages to go until you're done.
     
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  7. Chibisaurus

    Chibisaurus Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 17, 2015
    Las Vegas
    Honestly, I wouldn't vape in a place that obviously wouldn't allow smoking.
    Yes, smoking and vaping are two different things.
    But it is not my home, it it not my car, it is a public place.
    I wouldn't want someone to come to my home and vape without asking if it was okay first,
    Nor would I want someone coming into my home a lighting up a cigarette or smoking hooka.
    Same goes if I owned a store...
    I understand this was at a public place, but with the clean indoor air act 99.9% of places I have been
    to have new signs that says "No smoking , Including E-Cigarettes "
     
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  8. Jman8

    Jman8 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2013
    Wisconsin
    If you allow vaping in your house, then cool, I can smoke there.

    If not allowing smoking, then me confused.
     
  9. Frenchfry1942

    Frenchfry1942 Chillin' Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2014
    Sky Island
    :pop:
     
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  10. Jman8

    Jman8 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2013
    Wisconsin
    I want some popcorn!

    Will go great with the waffles.
     
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  11. Chibisaurus

    Chibisaurus Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 17, 2015
    Las Vegas
    That makes no sense at all. LOL. My house is my own domain. I have the right to choose if people may smoke or vape in my home.
    But when you go to someone else's house, or a public place that has a "No smoking sign" that doesn't mean "Vaping must be okay because that is obviously a photo of a cigarette and this is not one".

    When you assume you just make and ... out of U and Me.
     
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