For the DIY PROS---Intensity of flavor- What's the secret(s)??

[garpt01]

To experienced DIY'ers--
I have a few favorite "commerciial" flavors I buy often and use as ADV's. I have been doing DIY flavor blending for a few months, fairly intensively, and readiing everythiing I can on the subject. Using quality flavors, nic, and additiives, flavors mostly TFA. My favorites that I try to clone include Deadly Sin, Grants Vanilla Custard, Mother's Milk, and Gambiit, to name a few favorites. I tweak percentages from 2% to 20 % on the major component flavorings. I've gotten the concept of hittiing the "sweet spot" on flavoring. It's easy to tell when I've gone too high, as the flavors lose identity and become bitter. Also, I play with steep tiimes and methods- warm water baths, ultrasonic cleaners, patience, etc. My problem is getting the flavor INTENSITY of my favorite commercial juiices. I've also run the gambiit of PG/ VG blends. Bottom line, my juices are GOOD, but, at least in the favorites mentioned, not of the same flavor intensity level.
Are theiir any tricks or methods from the pros that I may have missed? Thanks. GT

 

[michaelsil1]

Add Sweetener

 

[dannyv45]

read this thread.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ques-flavor-add-ons-em-vw-bw-mts-acv-ect.html

 

[we2rcool]

To experienced DIY'ers--
I have a few favorite "commerciial" flavors I buy often and use as ADV's. I have been doing DIY flavor blending for a few months, fairly intensively, and readiing everythiing I can on the subject. Using quality flavors, nic, and additiives, flavors mostly TFA. My favorites that I try to clone include Deadly Sin, Grants Vanilla Custard, Mother's Milk, and Gambiit, to name a few favorites. I tweak percentages from 2% to 20 % on the major component flavorings. I've gotten the concept of hittiing the "sweet spot" on flavoring. It's easy to tell when I've gone too high, as the flavors lose identity and become bitter. Also, I play with steep tiimes and methods- warm water baths, ultrasonic cleaners, patience, etc. My problem is getting the flavor INTENSITY of my favorite commercial juiices. I've also run the gambiit of PG/ VG blends. Bottom line, my juices are GOOD, but, at least in the favorites mentioned, not of the same flavor intensity level.
Are theiir any tricks or methods from the pros that I may have missed? Thanks. GT

'Have to strongly disagree with "add sweetener" (please see thread/info below for more details). Quick overview: there are four additives that will lessen/smother the intensity of flavors in juices - they are: EM (will even affect taste buds adversely); sucralose/sweetener; lemon juice and apple cider vinegar.
All but EM may temporarily "pop flavor", but within a few days (or less when heat/usc steeping), the flavors will diminish & 'flatten'.

We2 (and many others) have found that saline solution (.9%) seriously *pops* the flavor in juices (there's good information in the thread below, and lots more scattered around this forum). We use a Base VG mix of 80% VG; 13.5% distilled water; 4.5% saline (.9% solution) and 2% pure grain alcohol. We plug this into the calculators as plain ole VG (the only PG we use is what's in the flavors).

Some report that adding a bit of distilled water to their juices/tanks helps to pop flavor, but we've never experienced that ourselves. It's sure easy to try!

We once got a gallon of VG that killed the flavor in over 5000mls of juice. It is ALWAYS a good idea to test your bases! Try a new brand/vendor for VG & PG (just get small bottles to not spend too much) and then make new mixes identical to what you already have. You may just find that your PG/VG is somehow the culprit!

'Hope that helps!

Regarding the addition of sucralose (and other additives that diminish flavor), from here, Post #413: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/268760-diy-master-techniques-flavor-add-ons-em-vw-bw-mts-acv-ect-11.html

As far as I can recall, I was the one who tested lemon juice and the effects it had on fruit flavors. At the time I was also using sucralose (ezsweets) in fruit/bakery flavors. I also tested distilled vinegar (not acv, I dont use it) on tobaccos.

What I found with fruit and bakery vapes is they were great initally with the additives, for about two days. Then on day 3 like clockwork the sharpness/crispness of the flavor was just... plain... gone. It never rebounded either. It just continued decline. So I started testing the same juices with lemon juice and sucralose separately. Trying to find the culprit. The result in my tests was that they BOTH decrease flavor output of ejuice. While they help initally boost and sweeten flavor, within a few days, they both cause ejuice to simply go flat. While its a more dramatic example, I feel the same way about ejuice with lemon or sucralose as I do about flat soda pop. Its just lackluster.

This occured in both high VG bases at 80% and high PG bases at 80%. I tested both because I didnt want people calling me out saying VG mutes flavor, which to this day I refute as utter nonsense.

I no longer use either in any of my mixing. I have found that using fruit flavors with alcohol bases provide more than enuff sweetening o. their own if they are steeped for 48-72 hours, and it helps that I use 80%VG in my juice.

As far as tobaccos go I also agree vinegar that after a few days it can flatten flavors over time. However!!! As I vape mostly tobacco ejuices I still add 1 drop/5ml of distilled white vinegar to my vapes. To counter the flattening I adjust by adding slightly more flavoring. About .5% to 1% more flavoring in a final mix. In my experience this counters the effect of flavor flattening with DV and allows mostly all tobacco vapes to round out immediately. (note: i also heat steep my juices at a constant 150° in a water bath in a crock pot for four hours after mixing and have found it it adds about 2 weeks to the aging process of ejuice). At the 2 weeks mark (in my case then this is 4 hours after mixing), all of your tobacco flavors will have a spike in flavor and will stay there, but only round more given time. Giving you a spiked up flavor but still rounded body to your vape. I found apple cider vinegar made bad and good juuces worse with no spike at all, but to be fair I barely ever tested acv.

All of my vapes... yes read that as ALL... are primed and full bodied in four hours. Period. Ultrasonic isnt the answer either. Hand shaking is enuff for juice. Heat allows flavor dissipation and release FAR FAR better.

Alot of what I do flys in the face of common and well "documented" processes others use like ultrasonic steeping tho. (if it works for ya, great. I know what I know and heat is the key, not vibration. And yeah, I tested that too about three months ago so I stand behind it).

People just pretty much ignored my testing. I took painstaking measures to control the samples and.prove to myself the results. Today when people say they use lemon juice, or sucralose and RAVE about the results.... I know they are NOT vaping stellar juice. They are absolutely, positively, better off without both. Unless they are going to vape what they make in under two days.

Note: I did not bother testing the effects of citric acid powder in juice, but I assume it has the same effect as lemon juice and mutes flavors.

 

[tyjames]

'

We once got a gallon of VG that killed the flavor in over 5000mls of juice. It is ALWAYS a good idea to test your bases! Try a new brand/vendor for VG & PG (just get small bottles to not spend too much) and then make new mixes identical to what you already have. You may just find that your PG/VG is somehow the culprit!

 

[Blueser]

'Have to strongly disagree with "add sweetener" (please see thread/info below for more details). Quick overview: there are four additives that will lessen/smother the intensity of flavors in juices - they are: EM (will even affect taste buds adversely); sucralose/sweetener; lemon juice and apple cider vinegar.
All but EM may temporarily "pop flavor", but within a few days (or less when heat/usc steeping), the flavors will diminish & 'flatten'.


Regarding the addition of sucralose (and other additives that diminish flavor), from here, Post #413: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/268760-diy-master-techniques-flavor-add-ons-em-vw-bw-mts-acv-ect-11.html

I keep seeing the "DIY Master Techniques" thread referenced as kinda the Masters holy grail for additives that supposedly enhance flavors...ie "em-vw-bw-mts-acv" ...this is quite perplexing as there seems to be a growing consensus among many mixers that these additives are detrimental as opposed to enhancing flavor.

 

[SoUnique]

I for one can speak from experience on using Lemon Juice. I did lose the flavor in my e-juice in a couple days. It took me some time & reading to figure out the problem, yes, it was the lemon juice.
I've started experimenting with saline a couple months back, so far no problems.
I find using more then one brand of the same flavor sometimes helps, I'll combine Cap & FA strawberry. Play around with that, it may help intensify the flavor, rather then killing it with to much.

 

[Hoosier]

Great strong flavor is what I require, it's what made it possible for me to switch to vaping, it's why I drip, it's why I mix my own juice.

How to get there is often counterintuitive and requires some experimentation. Things like a half-dash of raspberry to make watermelon come through or using bitter flavoring to make the sweet notes stronger. I cannot count the number of times I've been close to the taste I want so I have dozens of bottles with my "close" mix and each of these bottles has another flavoring added to it to find what makes it really pop. It seems that what works is never what I originally thought it would be and is usually something that seems completely stupid when said out loud.

I convinced the best way to understand mixing is to mix. You'll find weird things that work and logical things that don't. You'll get a "feel" for it and develop an intuition that is nearly impossible to explain to someone who doesn't have the same experience. It's like sex. When you first try it you think it's all great until you actually have great sex and explaining the difference is fairly impossible without the other having the same experience. (Sorry, best analogy I could come up with this morning.)

/\ the result of large fingers on a tiny phone's keyboard - using Tapatalk

 

[donnah]

I keep seeing the "DIY Master Techniques" thread referenced as kinda the Masters holy grail for additives that supposedly enhance flavors...ie "em-vw-bw-mts-acv" ...this is quite perplexing as there seems to be a growing consensus among many mixers that these additives are detrimental as opposed to enhancing flavor.

One thing I notice across the vaping community and visiting/reading various forums is how this type of information is disseminated by virtually everyone as sound advice. Another thing that I see as quite apparent are the majority of folks who recommend certain additives are simply repeating what they've read and perceive to be true as opposed to having actually performed any A/B testing on their own.

So how do I put this tactfully...don't know that I can . It seems that everyone want's to be an expert. So will the "real expert" please sit down so I can more easily pick you out of the crowd of standing experts...

Now, what's the skinny of the Master's Techniques" ...are these additives enhancers or de-enhancers...grasshopper wishes to know

When hoosier says something..I know it's right!

I'm too impatient and unorganized to be a master mixer. I follow recipes and use simple mixes of my own. My mixes are good..some are maybe great but most are better than what I've bought from vendors

 

[garpt01]

Thanks for the responses!
I've done a lot of the things mentioned in the posts, including ACV, Lemon Juice, EM, and Sucralose. I agree with many that sweeteners is NOT the answer, in my early juices, it just made them all taste the same--- just sweet vapor- they all lost a lot of their flavor identity. I've also read many "masters" say that the best juices don't use any sweetener at all, although I will often use a judicious quantity of EM for dessert and bakery type flavors, as well as fruit flavors. Acidic additiives such as lemon juice and ACV, IMO, just dull the flavors after a short while by lowering the PH. My best so far have been trial and error by tasting, adjusting, then repeating again and again. Problem with this method is that it is hard to reproduce the ones that come out best- you need to repeat the whole process by "taste memory". And my method of choice for steeping, which I feel definitely improves juices substantially, is warm water bath. When the color is "right", usually (depending on any coloring in the concentrates) a mid-bronze color, I know it's as good as it is probably going to get.
Lastly, I've tried two different brands of PG and VG, but haven't really put any thought into that being the "problem". I find that theory very interesting. What have any of you found to be the better brands for carrying top flavoring intensity?

 

[Exchaner]

Essential Depot has a good reputation for carrying quality pg, vg. They are the only vendor I know of that publicly guarantees their VG is NOT made from a certain plant containing trace amounts of toxins as used by others. There is a sticky somewhere about the safety issues concerning pg and vg - by Rolygate I think.

 

[garpt01]

Essential Depot has a good reputation for carrying quality pg, vg. They are the only vendor I know of that publicly guarantees their VG is NOT made from a certain plant containing trace amounts of toxins as used by others. There is a sticky somewhere about the safety issues concerning pg and vg - by Rolygate I think.

Essential Depot was my first brand, and I still use it. The only other brand VG I use has absolutely no manufacturer name at all, which I now find odd for a "food" product.. It just says "Made in the USA" and "99.7% Pure USP Food Grade, and Kosher.... I don't remember where I ordered it.

 

[buffaloguy]

Ive used the CVS glycerin, plain vg from wizard labs, and essential depot. Ive settled on essential depot VG. IMO, its the same as what I got from wizard labs but their pricing cant be beat and the convienience of being able to order it on amazon (prime member) is great.

I always find Hoosier to be the counterintuitive voice here in DIY. When I first started mixing alot of his posts made me think about mixing in a different way. Making juice is a cererbral activity wrapped in sense filled experiences. Sure you can copy and paste, rinse and repeat, and get good results and be a very happy vaper. Yet, when you go after a grail of your own and crack a juice that suits you perfectly after your 1,000th try its fantastic. Plus, if you keep notes and thoughts you can replicate anything.

I had followed the crowd a long time when I first started diy and I listened to everyone repeat many of the same things over and over. However, my juices were fine but they werent stellar. I knew there had to be a better way and frankly, for me, the better way was to simplify, test, and eliminate what didnt work. Additives like EM, vinegar, lemon all bave their uses but not for what is commonly believed. When you work with one recipe and do it seven different ways all with the same percentage of flavoring in each then you begin to figure out... this is right... or this is wrong.

My best advice to anyone seeking great juice... read the stickies, learn all you can, and always challenge conventional thought to find wisdom. Heck everything I know today could be turned on its head tomorrow by someone creating a new method, addition, or subtraction to what I do now. Im fine with it too as long as it results in a stellar vape.

 

[wedoitall]

great information here. Hope I can make something half as good as most of you.

 

[Xcighippy]

We2 (and many others) have found that saline solution (.9%) seriously *pops* the flavor in juices (there's good information in the thread below, and lots more scattered around this forum). We use a Base VG mix of 80% VG; 13.5% distilled water; 4.5% saline (.9% solution) and 2% pure grain alcohol. We plug this into the calculators as plain ole VG (the only PG we use is what's in the flavors).

Some report that adding a bit of distilled water to their juices/tanks helps to pop flavor, but we've never experienced that ourselves. It's sure easy to try!l[/URL]

I see that your really into using VG heavily as your base. What is your reasoning /advantage behind this when I see that most commercial juice is at 50/50 pg,vg.? Also , What are your thoughts on alcohol based flavor concentrates? Are they better than pg base? If I use them do I leave out the grain alcohol in the base mix?
I know I have a lot of questions. I have been reading and trying to learn all I can on this forum and there is SO much information that contradicts other information. To sweeten or not to sweeten, PG or VG etc. It can get overwhelming to a newbe like me but I take what you say pretty much as gospel. And look forward to trying out my new found knowledge!

 

[buffaloguy]

As a heavy VG vaper myself maybe I can shed some light here. For me personally I have found that Im sensitive to PG. Any juice with more than 30% PG gives me crushing headaches. Not to mention it drys out your mouth and sinuses a ton. I made a switch to VG and havent looked back. It produces more vapor, doesnt dry you out as much, and adds a sweetness to juices that PG does not. Adding some dw, or saline helps thin out VG, increases vapor production, and produces a moister vape. Saline wise, I have been doing a mix of 75% distilled water / 25% saline .9% in place of just plain distlled water for my juices and I like it.

Imo, alcohol base flavorings seen to work better for me all around. I dont add any pga to my mixes. It increases throat hit a tiny bit and can be used to thin a juice. I find PG based flavoring to be fine but generally weaker than most comparable alc based flavorings. That being said there is room to use both without issue unless like me you have a sensitivity or allergy to PG.

Frankly, a 50pg/50vg mix is acceptable but it all depends on what you like best. PG to me adds a stale taste to juices I just dont care for. Then again after vaping high vg for a long time it could just be I taste pg more than others. Its fine to me in low percentages, I just dont care for it.

If you want to know what you prefer then make the same juice at 80%vg base and another at 80%pg base and another around 50/50 and try it for yourself. Then pick what u like best adjust from there. The nice thing about diy is its you in control and you can make whatever you like, any way you like it.

 

[Dylando]

As a heavy VG vaper myself maybe I can shed some light here. For me personally I have found that Im sensitive to PG. Any juice with more than 30% PG gives me crushing headaches. Not to mention it drys out your mouth and sinuses a ton. I made a switch to VG and havent looked back. It produces more vapor, doesnt dry you out as much, and adds a sweetness to juices that PG does not. Adding some dw, or saline helps thin out VG, increases vapor production, and produces a moister vape. Saline wise, I have been doing a mix of 75% distilled water / 25% saline .9% in place of just plain distlled water for my juices and I like it.

Imo, alcohol base flavorings seen to work better for me all around. I dont add any pga to my mixes. It increases throat hit a tiny bit and can be used to thin a juice. I find PG based flavoring to be fine but generally weaker than most comparable alc based flavorings. That being said there is room to use both without issue unless like me you have a sensitivity or allergy to PG.

Frankly, a 50pg/50vg mix is acceptable but it all depends on what you like best. PG to me adds a stale taste to juices I just dont care for. Then again after vaping high vg for a long time it could just be I taste pg more than others. Its fine to me in low percentages, I just dont care for it.

If you want to know what you prefer then make the same juice at 80%vg base and another at 80%pg base and another around 50/50 and try it for yourself. Then pick what u like best adjust from there. The nice thing about diy is its you in control and you can make whatever you like, any way you like it.

This is so very informative, thanks for all the responses to the OP's question. If I may chime in... Buffaloguy, I am working with alcohol based flavors right now and was trying to find a better base as well as playing with saline. (Basically, I think I am to cut out the PG...) The "75% DI Water/25% Saline in place of DI" sound interesting and I would like to try it.. If you don't mind me asking, what is the ratio you are using with VG?

 

[CrystalMoon]

buffaloguy, could you clarify and elaborate for the math-challenged your sentence: "Saline wise, I have been doing a mix of 75% distilled water / 25% saline .9% in place of just plain distlled water" please? IF I am understanding correctly, you are preparing a dilution solution consisting of 75% DW and 25% separate solution consisting of 9 parts salt (?) to 91 parts DW? How do you measure, being that one's a solid & the other a liquid? I guess I could websearch that...but I wanna enjoy your expertise Also, once you've achieved this saline solution dilute, how much of the final solution of DW+saline solution do you add to your VG? Then, do you consider your final product (VG+diluting agents) to be a single component? As in, although it's actually a mix, it represents "the VG" in a recipe? I've been DIY'ing high VG content juices for a while but never seemed to grasp the finers, and appreciate any and all advice from the more successful.

 

[Exchaner]

Crystal, until buffaloguy responds, I think .9% solution means .9 GRAMS of salt not .9ml of saline in 100ml of solution. You would need a scale to make your own. Or otherwise you could purchase the ready made solution by Baxter. It's on Amazon but you might find it for less on other sites - perhaps on ZoroTools.

 

[michaelsil1]

Saline Solution:

.9 grams Salt (No Additives) in 100ml Distilled Water.

If you buy a premade Saline Solution make sure it doesn't have Sodium Bicarbonate in it