General condition of the vapor/e-cig hardware industry

[underice]

I'm wondering what condition the industry is in at the moment, how mature it is and how much Q/A is involved?

I started vaping about 3 months ago and have had one technical issue after another:

I started with Mistics (after trying several other over the counter brands)..great battery life etc. But the batteries would fail out of nowhere. And the first batch of cartomizers I bought arrived and 3 out of 10 were DOA. If you are familiar with Mistics, the battery will work with 808 cartomizers (aside from a small gap).

I thought I'd step and so I bought a Elite after using some Cig Easy batteries. Over the first month of usage one battery failed. Another, more frustrating issue occurred. Each battery was slightly out of spec with the other...so when I switched I had to pull out the center pin on each before they'd work. That's fine until I switch back...then the center pins would get pushed back in.

So I bought a KGo....loved it. Then on one of the batteries the battery power button would stay depressed, firing the battery for much longer than I wanted it or needed to.

I have a Cig-Easy charger that was nearly DOA...worked (I think) for a day or two. Then nothing. I don't think it ever worked properly because the battery LED never flipped to green no matter how long it sat on the charger. The first tank I bought for the KGo seeped just enough fluid to make it hard to use outside my office. Cartomizers had distinctly variable lifetimes and effectiveness.

So the point is that nothing I bought ever worked from end to end...not so bad as to stop me from trying but it's been a frustrating ride.

Is the industry just immature? Are technical or QA standards not fully defined? Is the market too small yet to justify money spent on growing the hardware to the point where it's dependable?

Or have I been really unlucky? I'm not complaining so much as wondering where the industry is at right now.

 

[kia2]

Perhaps a combination of all of the above.

The first time I tried e-cigs, they were new on the market, and they were not very good at all. This was only about 3 or so years ago. The industry has come a helluva distance since then in just that short time. Most are imported from China. Some companies have more quality control issues than others. And, with some companies, it isn't the battery but the customer service which has issues. I have several batteries from four different companies. Two companies the batteries are kind of generic and hit and miss, the other two I have had really good luck with batteries, but one of those has stock and customer service issues. I counter all this by waiting for good sales and stocking up on batteries.


I have only been off tobacco cigarettes for a little over a month, but I went to liquids fairly quickly, and I found a USA maker that I like and the prices are right. I haven't looked at many places, but I found one I liked so I'll stick with them for now. I buy a lot of blanks rather than carts (I'm using 808's, I like them). I found one company whose carts I liked and I will buy carts from them, but I am finding liquids to be a good solution. Just wish I could refill blanks forever and ever and ever, lol.

It may be hit and miss for you until you land upon the battery you like from a good company, same with liquids and carts, and they may all be different companies. You might check the review forums and supplier pages here at ECF for some insights.

 

[rolygate]

Generally, regular e-cigarette hardware is perhaps over-sold in terms of its reliability or intrinsic worth. The marketing which is necessary to get the sale tends to obscure the fact that, however smart the item looks, it has an expected life of around two months or less, due simply to the fact the ex-factory cost is fairly low. In fact the product cost is less than other costs associated with running a business, which tends to skew the end-user's perception of the product's worth. This applies to most of the parts.

In reality all the parts are consumables and should be regarded as no more likely to last than a lighter refill. If someone is using Model X as their main device, they will need at least two chargers, six or eight batteries and a whole lot more cartos or atties than that. This is the basic requirement to use the system properly, and applies to mid-size models like the eGo type. For minis you would probably need more than this. Then, when a battery or carto/tank dies, it's just one unit out of a pile and no great loss. The mistake is to think of any part (or any couple of parts that make up a complete unit) as being durable - they aren't. They can fail in a couple of weeks; or they might last for months if you are lucky.

The start-up cost is high, because there is a lot of front loading in this delivery system. The cost is mainly up front, to build a sizeable collection of parts. When you have ten batteries and many more end fittings, if you lose a battery or two every month it doesn't really add up to much compared to the cost of smoking.

The only valid comparison is to the cost of smoking. You need to compare the monthly cost to that of smoking - after you have built up your hardware to a usable and reliable amount. It's a mistake to try and compare these units to an expensive pen or something like that - disposable lighters is a better comparison.

This is one reason people move to mods, as these tend to have far better longevity. Indeed, the base unit could last for years in some cases, with just the occasional battery to buy, plus end fittings as needed.

There is a high cost to experimentation with different equipment, trying to find a model that suits you. If you invest in three or four different model ranges then costs can be high. It's better to try and work out if you like the result from a given model, then just buy into that model range - and buy enough that when parts fail it's not an issue. Many people would find that if they later change to a different model, the existing gear can be sold off to a friend or colleague without too much trouble, anyway. Newcomers are always coming along.

The overall cost over three months needs to be compared with the same for smoking. If you haven't saved 50% then something is going wrong somewhere. If you really want to save cash then DIY liquid plus a simple mod gets you well under 25% of the cost of cigarettes, unless you live where cigs are very cheap. Someone in NY should save a fortune.

You can reckon on one unit in five (of any kind) being troublesome, and at least one in ten being dud. So you buy extra to compensate. It's still way cheaper than smoking. If you want perfect, then research mods with the highest reliability and go that route as soon as possible, as it's probably the least hassle. You need backups, and backups for your backups.

 

[satoshi]

It's a very immature industry, and the QA varies quite a bit. The button issue you mention, where it gets stuck and keeps firing long after you want it to is extremely annoying and common. That happened to me a lot with eGO/Riva-style batteries and the generic KR808 types.

As for the cartos, the juice you're using really affects their performance and longevity. My girlfriend and I like the Bloog/Halo G6-style blank cartos lately, and have been using those batts, which have both been very reliable. It's a marked improvement over the earlier KR808 batts and cartos. We use mostly Halo, Bloog, and eLiquidPlanet liquids in them, so if you haven't tried any of that, I recommend it.

 

[kenetix]

I build my own mods (NOT something that someone new should even consider doing) but that said I make my own flavored liquid and I am down to about $25.00 or less a month now. This takes into account flavorless liquid, flavors, and new cartos. You think it is questionable now you should of seen it back in 2009 when I started. It was one failed disaster after another. The reliability and variety now is mind boggling. The single best thing you could do is to read, read, read, and read more to make informed, educated purchases.

 

[maximaseefu]

Agreed. I first tried vaping in 2009 and it was totally unsatisfying. I couldn't even make it a full day without an analog while using my joye 510 sparingly as even with 2 batteries they couldn't last a full work day. I gave up on e cigs less than 3 weeks after spending a considerable amount of money on batts, attys, carts, and juice. I smoked my last analog 2/18/12 the day I received my joye ego kit and have since bought a LT and very close to buying a provari. I love cartomizers, clearomizers and tanks as they are so much more convenient and long lasting than the old day of separate atomizers and cartridges with the loose filler and constant filling..........i feel the frustration rushing back just thinking about it.

 

[Butters78]

There are good PV makers out there.. Provape and Reo for example.

 

[MickeyRat]

There are a number of issues and part of it is brought on by the users themselves. As has been said, there are good reliable set ups available but, by the time you get batteries, chargers etc., you're looking at a $150 to $250 to get started. Very few people want to fork over that kind of money to start. There are also more reliable atomizers etc. There's a reason that so many of the more experienced PV users use things like a Reo or a Buzz Pro etc. There's also a reason they pay more to buy atomizers from Cisco and Ikenvape or AW IMR batteries. It's a more reliable consistent vape. It also costs quite a bit more.

 

[underice]

Generally, regular e-cigarette hardware is perhaps over-sold in terms of its reliability or intrinsic worth. The marketing which is necessary to get the sale tends to obscure the fact that, however smart the item looks, it has an expected life of around two months or less, due simply to the fact the ex-factory cost is fairly low. In fact the product cost is less than other costs associated with running a business, which tends to skew the end-user's perception of the product's worth. This applies to most of the parts.

You can reckon on one unit in five (of any kind) being troublesome, and at least one in ten being dud. So you buy extra to compensate. It's still way cheaper than smoking. If you want perfect, then research mods with the highest reliability and go that route as soon as possible, as it's probably the least hassle. You need backups, and backups for your backups.

I think anyone getting into this quickly realizes and accepts the disposable nature of the equipment. Most of the issues I've had occurred either right out of the box or within a week. That's considerably shorter than what I'd expect as a average time to failure...as you say a month or two. Even for a disposable product.

I'm surprised people accept a 20% failure rate, I can't think of any other consumer product that has anything close to that. And we're talking about products that cost real money and not 99 cents for a disposable lighter. If, for example flash drives, computer memory or IPod power adapters had that sort of failure rate there would be an issue made of it.

Like I said, I'm not .....ing exactly, I'm just surprised at how hit and miss the whole thing is.

 

[Cheechako]

There is a lot of room for improvement in this industry! While there is a lot of variety and choices right now the main issue in my experience is reliability and quality...

 

[rolygate]

..... I'm surprised people accept a 20% failure rate, I can't think of any other consumer product that has anything close to that. And we're talking about products that cost real money and not 99 cents for a disposable lighter. If, for example flash drives, computer memory or IPod power adapters had that sort of failure rate there would be an issue made of it.

Like I said, I'm not .....ing exactly, I'm just surprised at how hit and miss the whole thing is.

Price is a major factor in this industry and there is pressure to drive the cost of stock down. The manufacturers respond by offering a better price, but the price cuts have to come from somewhere. QC and testing is where the savings are made, especially testing, because it is so expensive in terms of time. To test all batteries means workers have to put them on a test rig for a period of time, then decide on the grade of the item. It's one more operation in a chain, and if the battery worked immediately after construction then it is assumed it should work after purchase.

The bigger brands have someone either going back and forth between here and the factories, or acting for them over there. They have to do that or suffer major issues with QC.

Another reason why some companies do better than others is CS, customer service. If you recognise that the most important factor in business is CS and not what you are actually selling, you may have an advantage over competitors even if they have a better offer in some other way. So if your company replaces items quickly with no questions asked then you can expect to do better than a competitor. It's a difficult business decision because there is a high cost (the cost of such a policy can be doubled by scammers), so you gamble that the increase in reputation leads to an increase in volume that pays for the cost of good CS. There have been some spectacular successes by going that route, but it may not always pay.

So for the customer, what you buy may not in the end be so important as who you buy from, especially in a market area where product reliability is such an issue due to the low cost of the product ex-factory compared to its retail price and perceived value. The customer gets a great deal in the end because it's a new industry that cannot be expected to be without wrinkles, and because the end cost is so low compared to the benefits.

Probably the biggest cost for some buyers is their first purchase, made without research, before they end up somewhere like here that has good resources.

 

[underice]

All that is true, but those pressures aren't any different than in any other industry. I founds these problems in a range of mid-priced products which is why I brought up the issue as an industry-wide problem.

Finding a good vendor with great CS is probably the most important factor, for sure.

 

[kenetix]

Price is a major factor in this industry and there is pressure to drive the cost of stock down. The manufacturers respond by offering a better price, but the price cuts have to come from somewhere. QC and testing is where the savings are made, especially testing, because it is so expensive in terms of time. To test all batteries means workers have to put them on a test rig for a period of time, then decide on the grade of the item. It's one more operation in a chain, and if the battery worked immediately after construction then it is assumed it should work after purchase.

The bigger brands have someone either going back and forth between here and the factories, or acting for them over there. They have to do that or suffer major issues with QC.

Another reason why some companies do better than others is CS, customer service. If you recognise that the most important factor in business is CS and not what you are actually selling, you may have an advantage over competitors even if they have a better offer in some other way. So if your company replaces items quickly with no questions asked then you can expect to do better than a competitor. It's a difficult business decision because there is a high cost (the cost of such a policy can be doubled by scammers), so you gamble that the increase in reputation leads to an increase in volume that pays for the cost of good CS. There have been some spectacular successes by going that route, but it may not always pay.

So for the customer, what you buy may not in the end be so important as who you buy from, especially in a market area where product reliability is such an issue due to the low cost of the product ex-factory compared to its retail price and perceived value. The customer gets a great deal in the end because it's a new industry that cannot be expected to be without wrinkles, and because the end cost is so low compared to the benefits.

Probably the biggest cost for some buyers is their first purchase, made without research, before they end up somewhere like here that has good resources.

I really find most of this untrue here is why. Every new buisness venture is like the gold rush, you can apply this to everything. Everyone is jumping in pumping out as much as they can to sell it as fast as they can. Couple this with zero regulation at the moment and you have a buyer beware situation. Every single industry has faced this in the past. Look at the light bulb (loosly speaking) we went from gas lighting to the light bulb. Even power DC to AC. When the industry is new everyone jumps in for a quick buck until the demand or laws/regulations dictate otherwise so to speak.

The ecig industry was a new venture and the cash was good. No regulations means anyone and everyone can push any old thing they want. This is and has been the case. This is why we have seen so many battery failures and complaints of juices.

I guess to clarify this more is it appears you are talking about lack of QC because of the price associated with it. Where as I am saying QC is lacking because no one mandates that it be done. With the industry just sucking up everything new that comes along with no prior knowledge of the company we buy it in the thousands. Look at the lavatube. Although we do have a few local homegrown companies that take the time to build in protection (aka buzzpro, provari) the price associated with this is seen as a negative because 98% of other vendors are pushing low quality items.

If and when we see any self imposed or goverment regulation or oversight we will continue to see low quality stuff produced. Until then read, read, read, read, and read more. Last but not least BUYER BEWARE!

 

[BuzzKill]

we need to separate some areas here , there are the Chinese made Ecigs then there are USA( and other places ) made Ecigs , some are referred to as mods , at this point they are really standards because they are purpose built for this reason and are not modified they are designed that way.

1. The CHinese Ecig like the EGO or 510 etc. they are made by 14=18 yr old girls on a production line in Shenzhen China , the company KNOWS it has no liability or CS that they need to deal with so they do NOT care about the quality for the most part. Some do more than others but overall they KNOW we will buy this crap as new users to vaping.

2. USA( and other places ) Purpose built Ecigs or MODS as they have been called , these are made in the USA or assem. here , MOST are designed with safety in mind and provide several safety features BUILT INTO THEM , I can name a few but most have already been named in this thread .

Then there are UN PROTECTED mechanical mods , these tend to have no safety features built into them , this is where the Battery issue lies that we have been turned into paranoid freaks over by ECF postings , some use what they have called collapsible springs that deform under high current loads , the springs are NOT designed for this , anyhow there are 2 basic classes of MODS IMO
1. Protected
2. Unprotected

Roly stated that all mod makers do NOT CARE ABOUT the customer on the VTVP Show last Wendsday , this is total BS and needs to be addressed .

WE DO CARE ROLY that is WHY we designed the protection INTO THE MOD. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure I can say this more clearly.

 

[rolygate]

@Kenetix
In the end, the market decides: as it matures, consumers gain a knowledge of the factors associated with each brand. They end up knowing roughly what can be expected from any brand. If they want reliability, they pay more. What I am basically saying is that you can't expect reliability at this price point - in order to get it you have to pay more.

Actually this may be more of a concern with refill liquid than hardware. In my view there is no such thing as good, safe, cheap e-liquid because testing at the final retail stage (to catch errors that may have gone through to the end) is expensive. But this is an opinion not shared by the majority of buyers because there seems to be pressure to drive the cost of e-liquid down.

I'd pay whatever it takes, if only to get high-quality materials for DIY - but this does not seem to be the mass opinion.

Basically I'm saying there is a price to be paid for cheap product - if that makes any sense

 

[rolygate]

..... Roly stated that all mod makers do NOT CARE ABOUT the customer on the VTVP Show last Wendsday , this is total BS and needs to be addressed .

Mike, I have never said all mod makers are implicated in our current concerns. As you say, there are good reasons to buy US and UK-made mods. For example the first mod was invented by Trog in the UK - the Screwdriver - and it has never been implicated in any serious incident (which is what I think you are talking about) even after thousands of units and many years, despite the fact it could be regarded by some as 'unprotected'.

The EMSS is a dynamic* specification, with associated advice that is even more likely to change. In fact I have been editing the associated materials almost daily in order to upgrade the information as a result of feedback.

* meaning not static

We well know that incidents are limited to metal tube mods, with two batteries (and probably to those with no electronic controls). This is demonstrably not "all mod makers" - and it also does not include any who have implemented sensible safety features.

A statement that, "Mod makers do not care about xxxx" cannot be defined or construed to mean all mod makers unless some other interpretation of English is being used than the normal one. By clear implication it means 'some' mod makers. However if an opinion from a professor of English Language can be obtained that states otherwise, I would be happy to amend any statements in print, or find some way to amend any such verbal statements.

Nevertheless, I will try to prepend 'some' to any future statements in order to allay your concerns.

 

[BuzzKill]

Roly your post states that , well you have changed it to add protected Mods Now , this is NOT what was posted originally!!! at least you can see that now .

As far as the statement on the show , I will get a transcript for you .

 

[Sugarfoot]

Just a bump to thank all participants in this thread. Discussions such as this are why I continue to spend at ECF.

 

[six]

If ECF's new stand on safety will eventually translate in to a similar stand on junk that doesn't work, the state of the industry will improve. ECF is willing to actively discourage people from buying mods they think could be potentially hazardous, but have so far not shown the same zeal towards products like attys, cartos, and such that don't work as advertized.

If this and other forums take an active role regarding what is and what isn't acceptable in the marketplace, then it should include not just safety but quality as well. So far, that has been up to users to educate one another and we have to rely on the honesty of each vendor... I have a drawer full of stuff that didn't work the way some vendor said it would. How much money does the vaping community spend each year on junk?

 

[wv2win]

I would say that all the models you bought other than the Kgo were crap models. When you think of what you pay for any of these models (assuming you didn't buy some of the over-hyped, over priced models), it's hard to expect these to last for years.

There are models that come with lifetime and/or full 2 year warranties, which is what I use. The old adage that you get what you pay for has merit. Get one of these better models and you will not have these issues for the most part. Atomizers, cartomizers and tanks need to be viewed as consumables.