Help non-vaper help tech-illiterate analoggers

[MarkSkylark]

Hi. I'm a non-smoker who has done a fair bit of vaping in the past while helping my grandfather switch to e-cigs around 2010. He has since passed on and I haven't looked at vape gear in 5+ years. He and I really liked Innoken iClear 30 and 30s tanks and variable voltage e-Go batteries. The variable voltage let you dial it in and with 1.5ohm coils I could produce some massive clouds of vapor, although I have seen some people with mods that put mine to shame twice over.

Now I've recently helped a couple neighbors upgrade from Windows XP to 7, from tracfone flip phones to tracfone smartphones, and they've expressed an interest in vaping. They both smoke analogs and tried the blu cartomizer type ecigs from Walgreens/Walmart and didn't like them. I've never tried any cartomizer, only tanks, but told them they are right, those are bad e-cigs and they need to get a proper setup and I showed them the fasttech website. My inclination is to have them order an innoken iClear 30s (30 tank is out of stock, and unfortunately no low ohm coils for 30s?) with an eGo-VV 900mAh battery and wall charger for $17.35 shipped, and a 30ml bottle of Vaporbomb's Strawberry Waffle 18mg 50/50 juice for $10 plus shipping because I remember this to be a very good and tasty ejuice.

However, in looking at fasttech, I see mods have become much more common and lower priced, and I'm wondering if I shouldn't suggest a mod like the Eleaf iStick Pico 75W w/ MELO III Clearomizer from fasttech, plus a couple Samsung 20s 18650's from ebay. I've also read Sara Satruday's thread about the iStick Pico and read it's not recommended to charge through the usb port, and better to get an 18650 wall charger. That would bring the price to around $60, which is a tougher sell. I also read in Sara's thread that MELO tanks come with Kanthal coils, which do not support Temperature Control. How important is TC? Is there a similar cost effective kit that comes with tank/coils that do support TC?

Also, the term squonking is new to me, but it seems to mean an integrated squeeze bottle in the mod for refilling the tank? Does it allow you to run high percentage of VG or any benefit like that, or is it just a way of carrying more juice than you could hold in your tank?

I'm leaning towards recommending the eGo / iClear setup to my neighbors because I know it works and is cost effective. But I might like a mod that produces massive billows of vapor if it can be had for under ~$60 for myself! Along with some 6mg VG heavy Strawberry Waffle ejuice...mmmm.

 

[gandymarsh]

Welcome!

I would suggest a mod with an integrated battery for a first timer. I just think it's less of a learning curve for a beginner.

Fasttech has good prices but I prefer to buy from a US site for many reasons. You may pay a bit more but they usually stand behind their products. You will also receive the items in a week instead of a month.

The Innokin Kroma A kit is highly recommended as a starter kit here. It has room to grow since you can use many different tanks on it.
Innokin Kroma-A Zenith Starter Kit

 

[Baditude]

I'm leaning towards recommending the eGo / iClear setup to my neighbors because I know it works and is cost effective.

That gear (eGo batteries and the iClear clearomizers) is considered "old technology" and is being phased out by the manufacturers. It can still be had if you look hard enough online, but it will soon become obsolete in the near future.

I also read in Sara's thread that MELO tanks come with Kanthal coils, which do not support Temperature Control. How important is TC? Is there a similar cost effective kit that comes with tank/coils that do support TC?

Temp Control is not all that important, although most regulated mods now include some form of it. In fact, not all mods that offer it do a good job with it unless you're willing to put out the money for a DNA board mod. Only a minority of vapers use TC exclusively. I've tried it myself and wasn't that impressed (on a DNA battery device). Wattage mode works just as well IMHO, and you can use kanthal or stainless steel wire coils with wattage mode, so you don't have to worry what wire the coils you have are.

However, in looking at fasttech, I see mods have become much more common and lower priced, and I'm wondering if I shouldn't suggest a mod like the Eleaf iStick Pico 75W w/ MELO III Clearomizer from fasttech, plus a couple Samsung 20s 18650's from ebay. I've also read Sara Satruday's thread about the iStick Pico and read it's not recommended to charge through the usb port, and better to get an 18650 wall charger. That would bring the price to around $60, which is a tougher sell.

The iStick Pico is a popular entry level mod.

Good Starter Setups for a Beginner Vaper

Another one would be the Innokin Kroma mod and Zenith tank starter kit. A mouth to lung setup specifically aimed for new vapers to mimic taking a draw from cigarette. It also uses an integrated internal battery so you don't have to buy a separate charger.



Another new entry that will become widely popular is $38.4 - GeekVape Aegis Solo Kit with Cerberus Tank. Uses a single 18650 battery and is waterproof, shockproof, and dustproof. The Cerberus tank though is direct to lung and uses sub-ohm coils.

It's generally considered best to charge external batteries with a separate Li-ion charger. It's easier to monitor the batteries while they charge for heat production, and saves the USB port for firmware upgrades. A good brand name charger (Xtar, Nitecore, or Efest LUC) can be had for $20. Guide to Choosing a Li-ion Battery Charger

I also would not recommend purchasing vape gear from EBay, and especially not Li-ion batteries. Counterfeit batteries are a major issue in vaping and should be avoided at all costs.

Battery Basics for Mods: The Definative Battery Guide for Vaping

Also, the term squonking is new to me, but it seems to mean an integrated squeeze bottle in the mod for refilling the tank? Does it allow you to run high percentage of VG or any benefit like that, or is it just a way of carrying more juice than you could hold in your tank?

Squonkers, or bottom feeders, is a niche in vaping. It is essentually "dripping upside down". You could also describe it as "the flavor of a dripper (RDA) with the convenience of a tank". Basically, you should be somewhat experienced with RBA's (rebuildable atomizers) because they require making your own wick and coils from scratch.

Advancing Up the Vaping Ladder

 

[somdcomputerguy]

Welcome to ECF, MarkSkylark. I give you my condolences, albeit a half decade to late. I have an Innokin iClear X.I clearo, and a half dozen or so coil heads (1.8 ohm) for it, but I just keep those as one of my backups. I exclusively rebuild now and my favorite RTA of the four I have is the latest I've bought, a True by Ehpro. One of my reg mods is an eLeaf iStick Pico 75 and I would recommend it. It doesn't work correctly at the moment, but that's my fault, not the device.

 

[TylerA]

I use the Innokin Kroma A Zenith kit as well, I even bought a 2nd Zenith tank. I bought an RDA for DIY flavor testing, but I still prefer mouth to lung vs direct lung.

I'd say maybe start with one of the less expensive, refillable pod or aio type things, and if they like it enough, move to a more expensive mod. It's what I did since I was skeptical that vaping would replace smoking, but I'm 3+ months now without a cigarette and no desire whatsoever to ever go back .. I'm glad I started on the pod system though since it didn't require anymore thought than refilling the liquid, and charging it when it needed to be charged .. I didn't have to concern myself with wattages, temperatures, voltages, etc etc etc.

I think "simple" is a big thing to consider when trying to quit or help others quit.

 

[Opinionated]

Many tanks like the Melo 3 are going to be far too airy, most especially for an older smoker.

For a mod set up the Kroma-Zenith kit is a good one, but it's larger than a cigarette.

My husband is 56 yo and had a more difficult time with a larger mod. He ended up enjoying a smaller pod system (the Renova Zero pod) more than anything else for the ease of use and size. There is also the Smok Nord which is more of an AIO (all in one) which takes inexpensive coils and is also small yet has decent battery life.

Those types of devices require higher nicotine Salts, but that is usually best for a long time smoker anyway, so I'd recommended looking into refillable pod devices like the Nord or Zero..

The flavor is better in the newer tanks than in pods, but for some people just making the switch, the pods are a better size and fit..

 

[Skunk!]

GeekVape Flint MTL Starter Kit
I have been suggesting the Flint Kit to smokers trying to quit and everybody has loved it so far. I loved the iclear30s back in the day but there are MUCH better options out there now.

 

[MarkSkylark]

Thanks for all the responses. I agree that an integrated battery would be much more user friendly. Removing and charging an 18650 would be no problem for me, but I have to remember to look through their goggles. Something they can charge with their cell phone/USB charger would be ideal.
I'll suggest the Innokin Kroma-A Zenith as an option, but at half the price the Renova Zero pod and GeekVape Flint MTL Starter kits look like like much better options. The Renova Zero in particular looks very unintimidating, except maybe for filling. I just wonder about it's ability to produce billowing clouds. The MTL looks like it might be better in that regard.

I understand not to order vape gear from eBay, because it's against TOS. Only 18650's are the exception. Back around 2010, FastTech was FAR cheaper than any stateside retailers, but the gap seems to have closed significantly, if there's even one at all. My grandfather ordered from FastTech several times and they all arrived quickly from what I remember. He had around 10-12 different sized eGo batteries and the only one I can remember having a problem with was the twist style variable voltage. The blue/red/purple button click VV's were the best. He had probably 5-6 different tanks and I do remember the X9 Protank being too airy and very unsatisfying, but the iClear 30 produced very thick and huge clouds.

 

[Mordacai]

Hello MarkSkylark. Whatever you do, don't buy batteries from potentially dodgy sources such as Ebay, Amazon and even some vape shops. Always get Li-Ion batteries from reputable retailers, if folks know where you're based they can give you a list.

@Baditude, do you have those links for battery venting and thermal runaway available? Even the exploding SMOK pen.

 

[TraderX]

I agree that the vape gear you are considering is badly outdated to the point of being a waste of money, as it is being phased out.

I agree with the others who recommend a very traditional built in battery stater kit The Innokin Kroma-A Zenith Starter Kit is great.

The Joyetech Ego All in One (AIO) is another reliable and well loved starter kit with thousands of satisfied customers.

Authentic Joyetech¹ eGo AIO All In One 2ml Tank USB 1500mAh (USA SELLER) | eBay

 

[Kennneth]

I am new to vaping (couple months) from decades of smoking and new to this forum (Sunday) and I agree with what these folks are telling you. My son gave me a Pod (Nexus) and it got me off smoking which is very good. Yesterday I got my first mod, a Pico, and it blows the Nexus Pod away. Not saying get the mod first, just telling you my experience as 2 months ago I was where your friends are. There's a post I made in the blog that goes into more detail of my experience along with a few posts about my experience including some incorrect assumptions/thoughts by me. So not a lot of real experience on my part.

With that said, welcome and glad your here helping others. The ONE thing I can say with 100% recommendation is get your friends to come here and get expert help from these VERY knowledge and experienced people. And we all can welcome them to the forum : )

And stick around yourself ; )

 

[Baditude]

@Baditude, do you have those links for battery venting and thermal runaway available? Even the exploding SMOK pen.

If you mean Mooch's descriptions for venting and thermal runaway they are in this blog:

• Li-Ion Battery Chemistries - What are the differences in their safety?

The exploding SMOK pen video is at the end of this blog article under Lipo batteries.

Deeper Understanding of Mod Batteries Part 1
​

Graphic pics showing the results of exploding 18650's in mech mods are in this blog:

A Beginner's Guide to Your First Mechanical Mod​

 

[Opinionated]

Thanks for all the responses. I agree that an integrated battery would be much more user friendly. Removing and charging an 18650 would be no problem for me, but I have to remember to look through their goggles. Something they can charge with their cell phone/USB charger would be ideal.
I'll suggest the Innokin Kroma-A Zenith as an option, but at half the price the Renova Zero pod and GeekVape Flint MTL Starter kits look like like much better options. The Renova Zero in particular looks very unintimidating, except maybe for filling. I just wonder about it's ability to produce billowing clouds. The MTL looks like it might be better in that regard.

I understand not to order vape gear from eBay, because it's against TOS. Only 18650's are the exception. Back around 2010, FastTech was FAR cheaper than any stateside retailers, but the gap seems to have closed significantly, if there's even one at all. My grandfather ordered from FastTech several times and they all arrived quickly from what I remember. He had around 10-12 different sized eGo batteries and the only one I can remember having a problem with was the twist style variable voltage. The blue/red/purple button click VV's were the best. He had probably 5-6 different tanks and I do remember the X9 Protank being too airy and very unsatisfying, but the iClear 30 produced very thick and huge clouds.

Anything resembling a cloud is nonexistent with the Renova Zero, so if you see that as a necessity then pass it by, for real.

The flint will do far better in that regard.

 

[BrotherBob]

but I have to remember to look through their goggles.

Welcome and glad you joined.
I have been vaping the same internal Eleaf Istick 30 W mod for3+ years and could not be happier. By using an internal battery mod, you could save money by not having to purchase: back up batterie(s), carrying case, volt meter(s), wraps, charger(s) (backup), battery Do's and Don'ts (Much higher learning curve not to mention the batteries themselves).
Might consider two internal (lose or break/drop) battery mods, one to charge while vaping the other.
$25.05 Authentic Eleaf iStick 30W 2200mAh Variable Voltage / Wattage APV Box Mod - 2-8V / 5-30W / silver at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping
Note that at least 95% or more modes use an internal 510 thread to interface with a male atomizer. I would recommend a simple mouth to lung tank with NON SUB OHM (1.8 ohms is ideal) coils to start.
TankI would check out:
Kanger Subtank Mini with the RBA/purch option.
re: Kanger Subtank Mini
https://www.ecigology.com/mouth-to-lung-vs-direct-to-lung-vape-guide/
What Ohms should I choose?

 

[MarkSkylark]

Anything resembling a cloud is nonexistent with the Renova Zero, so if you see that as a necessity then pass it by, for real.

The flint will do far better in that regard.

I've never been a regular cigarette smoker, but I have smoked a few, and I know analogs are too harsh to do anything but mouth to lung. But with vapes, I can take huge draws directly into my lungs and make huge clouds which is very visually satisfying. I don't have the habit of doing mouth to lung or holding something small in size as a smoker, so those factors make no difference to me, but it might to them. So the Renova Zero may still be a good first option for them. I didn't catch that MTL in the Flint meant Mouth To Lung, but now I see. I find MTL very unsatisfying, but maybe that's just me. Thanks for the Educational links, Brother Bob.

I would try to get my neighbors to register here and post, but they are very technophobic, and their technophobia feeds of each others. They don't do any internet research and scoff at the idea of shopping online. Only 1 of them had an email address and neither had facebook before getting android smartphones. The only way I was able to convince them to make the leap from flip phones was telling them they could call in their orders to HSN or QVC, get $10-$20 off their first order for being first time customer, and you can get tracfone android smartphones with a year of service for $80 or less. They were able to see that's less than they were paying for their flip phones so they switched. They understand vaping has the potential to be cheaper than analogs too, it's just a matter of trying to limit costly trial and error it takes to find a device that works for them. They've already wasted money on Blu ecigs where I knew just from internet research not to even start there.

Is the Kanger Subtank mini strictly MTL? or can it do DTL? Ideally I'd like them to get something that can do DTL as well as the iCloud 30 did. Correct me if I'm wrong but you can do MTL with a DTL device, but not vise versa? EDIT: just read in that link that some devices come with dual coils such as a 0.15ohm and 1.5ohm, one for DTL and other for MTL. I just think at the end of the day DTL is the better all-arounder and where they will likely end up? I've just texted them the link to that ecigology article MTL vs DTL for them to get some idea.

 

[Mordacai]

If you want really basic, Vaporesso Drizzle Kit. But finding them can prove a little difficult, but there out there somewhere.

Simple pen/stick style battery mod with Drizzle tank, which has a 510 connector so could be moved to any mod. Has top airflow and it is possible to change the coil with some liquid in the tank. Coils are relatively cheap and last a reasonable amount of time.

Here's some information.
Drizzle Kit » Vaporesso

 

[NealBJr]

I've never been a regular cigarette smoker, but I have smoked a few, and I know analogs are too harsh to do anything but mouth to lung. But with vapes, I can take huge draws directly into my lungs and make huge clouds which is very visually satisfying. I don't have the habit of doing mouth to lung or holding something small in size as a smoker, so those factors make no difference to me, but it might to them. So the Renova Zero may still be a good first option for them. I didn't catch that MTL in the Flint meant Mouth To Lung, but now I see. I find MTL very unsatisfying, but maybe that's just me. Thanks for the Educational links, Brother Bob.

I would try to get my neighbors to register here and post, but they are very technophobic, and their technophobia feeds of each others. They don't do any internet research and scoff at the idea of shopping online. Only 1 of them had an email address and neither had facebook before getting android smartphones. The only way I was able to convince them to make the leap from flip phones was telling them they could call in their orders to HSN or QVC, get $10-$20 off their first order for being first time customer, and you can get tracfone android smartphones with a year of service for $80 or less. They were able to see that's less than they were paying for their flip phones so they switched. They understand vaping has the potential to be cheaper than analogs too, it's just a matter of trying to limit costly trial and error it takes to find a device that works for them. They've already wasted money on Blu ecigs where I knew just from internet research not to even start there.

Is the Kanger Subtank mini strictly MTL? or can it do DTL? Ideally I'd like them to get something that can do DTL as well as the iCloud 30 did. Correct me if I'm wrong but you can do MTL with a DTL device, but not vise versa? EDIT: just read in that link that some devices come with dual coils such as a 0.15ohm and 1.5ohm, one for DTL and other for MTL. I just think at the end of the day DTL is the better all-arounder and where they will likely end up? I've just texted them the link to that ecigology article MTL vs DTL for them to get some idea.

Well, Welcome to the forums... I missed the first few days.

Sounds like your neighbors are of the older sort. My mother in law is on the 70'ish side, and she has switched to vaping from smoking. I do have some other things for you to consider.... Usually, if someone smokes for a long time, they have the beginnings or already have COPD. Although for me, a direct to lung inhale is ok, for others, it might be too much. If they've smoked for a long time, I recommend them starting with a mouth to lung until they get used to vaping. It does take some getting used to, and if they're smokers, they are already used to a MTL setup. Also, remind them that it will NOT taste like an analog.. Burning tastes just like that.. burning... .and there is no burning in an Ecig. They try to emulate it, but it won't be the same. The Blu's and other "cigalikes" I don't think are powerful enough to get most people to stop smoking. It does introduce them to the idea. The more recent pod systems are probably more suited to what they're used to. I'd say start them off with one of those. Get them a pod system that the coils/atomizers are easily available. Whatever you buy, make sure the replacement pods are cheap and easily available.

And fasttech still offers bargains compared the "brick and mortar" sites, but the price gap narrows as you go online. It all depends on what you're shopping for. For name brand stuff, they sell it close to the MSRP. for non name brand stuff, they offer great bargains. Also, they offer great deals on supplies as well. I just had a shipment arrive today from Fasttech... Included were three ceramic tweezers for $6.85... online shops sell them for about $10 for one. Also, check Gearbest. But I still prefer a more local approach to someone who is buying gear for the first time. If they get a bad product, it'll take a while to process the return, and that might turn them off on vaping all together.

If they continue to use the pod system and they want more, then you can get them a more powerful mod.

 

[Opinionated]

I've never been a regular cigarette smoker, but I have smoked a few, and I know analogs are too harsh to do anything but mouth to lung. But with vapes, I can take huge draws directly into my lungs and make huge clouds which is very visually satisfying. I don't have the habit of doing mouth to lung or holding something small in size as a smoker, so those factors make no difference to me, but it might to them. So the Renova Zero may still be a good first option for them. I didn't catch that MTL in the Flint meant Mouth To Lung, but now I see. I find MTL very unsatisfying, but maybe that's just me. Thanks for the Educational links, Brother Bob.

I would try to get my neighbors to register here and post, but they are very technophobic, and their technophobia feeds of each others. They don't do any internet research and scoff at the idea of shopping online. Only 1 of them had an email address and neither had facebook before getting android smartphones. The only way I was able to convince them to make the leap from flip phones was telling them they could call in their orders to HSN or QVC, get $10-$20 off their first order for being first time customer, and you can get tracfone android smartphones with a year of service for $80 or less. They were able to see that's less than they were paying for their flip phones so they switched. They understand vaping has the potential to be cheaper than analogs too, it's just a matter of trying to limit costly trial and error it takes to find a device that works for them. They've already wasted money on Blu ecigs where I knew just from internet research not to even start there.

Is the Kanger Subtank mini strictly MTL? or can it do DTL? Ideally I'd like them to get something that can do DTL as well as the iCloud 30 did. Correct me if I'm wrong but you can do MTL with a DTL device, but not vise versa? EDIT: just read in that link that some devices come with dual coils such as a 0.15ohm and 1.5ohm, one for DTL and other for MTL. I just think at the end of the day DTL is the better all-arounder and where they will likely end up? I've just texted them the link to that ecigology article MTL vs DTL for them to get some idea.

The longer someone smokes has or can have an effect on how much vaping needs to mimic smoking.

My son who smoked fewer years than I did before making the switch vapes VERY differently than I do.

WHY? because after 32 years of smoking throat and lung problems had an effect on how I had to vape, and how long I smoked had an effect on how I wanted to vape. My husband who smoked nearly a decade longer is even more pronounced in these differences in vaping styles.

Your saying these people are aging smokers, if so, your not wanting to copy what you might find enjoyable, these people are far less likely to find anything enjoyable in a Direct to Lung draw, and might even be put off by that and never try vaping again if it doesn't work.

For them you want to consider recreating smoking as closely as possible in a mouth to Lung set up.

 

[MarkSkylark]

Points taken. So the Renova Zero with a high mg liquid (18mg? 24mg? 50/50 VG/PG?) looks to be at the top of the list for what I'll recommend to them to start with. But I will say, even for me, the first few hits off a vape after a long time away can be a bit irritating, but it gets smoother after that.

So what would you recommend for someone like me to start with? I know I like DTL and huge, dense clouds. As big as possible. Shock and awe factor would be #1 priority lol. The Kroma-A Zenith is advertised as a MTL tank that can also do DTL, but I think I would prefer a pure DTL tank with a large diameter mouth piece. However, I don't think I need a mod or huge batteries because it would just be a special occasion thing for me. Would not be vaping all day etc.. In fact, I think I'd prefer the smallest setup possible that produces the biggest clouds possible, to make people wonder how I get such huge clouds out of a small device? I would go with 0mg-6mg and 70/30 - 90/10 VG/PG ratios?

 

[Opinionated]

Points taken. So the Renova Zero with a high mg liquid (18mg? 24mg? 50/50 VG/PG?) looks to be at the top of the list for what I'll recommend to them to start with. But I will say, even for me, the first few hits off a vape after a long time away can be a bit irritating, but it gets smoother after that.

So what would you recommend for someone like me to start with? I know I like DTL and huge, dense clouds. As big as possible. Shock and awe factor would be #1 priority lol. The Kroma-A Zenith is advertised as a MTL tank that can also do DTL, but I think I would prefer a pure DTL tank with a large diameter mouth piece. However, I don't think I need a mod or huge batteries because it would just be a special occasion thing for me. Would not be vaping all day etc.. In fact, I think I'd prefer the smallest setup possible that produces the biggest clouds possible, to make people wonder how I get such huge clouds out of a small device? I would go with 0mg-6mg and 70/30 - 90/10 VG/PG ratios?

The Zero is just a tiny option for long time smokers...

The GeekVape Flint is a step up from that device while still being tiny..

Depending on age factors I would probably try the flint for them..

Juice try nicotine salts @ 25 mg to start, maybe 30.

Usually with premade salts they are mixed at 50/50 PG/VG because of the devices they are used in..

They aren't cloudy, but they have wisps of vapor reminiscent of cigarette smoking...

for you the Aegis Mini is a good option...