Here we go again with a proposed 70%to 95% tax on ecigs.....make yourself HEARD!!!

[CES]

...
So, if I'm understanding this correctly.... in simplistic terms - because of a classification of these e-cigs as a nicotine dispenser (as nicotine is still not a tobacco product by definition) e-cigs are classified as tobacco...???.....


Peace-

Not exactly- because nicotine comes from tobacco we fought to be regulated as a tobacco product. IMO it was the lesser of two evils. Because the other option was regulation as a drug delivery device. For a new drug, or drug and delivery device it take years of clinical trials and millions of dollars. You're right, money does make the difference and at the time, no one had the money to fund the trials- and we'd still be smoking combustible cigs and waiting for approval.

Yes, even so, many of us would likely have been able to find a way to use e-cigs on the black market. I prefer being able to order without having to worry about my supplies arriving.

And yes, there's a little device for inhaling chocolate to get the flavor without the calories that isn't being regulated as a medical device. But you don't have to take my word for any of it. If you back read through the legislative section of ECF you can get a sense of the history, and where the battles are now. The cat is out of the bag, and we have have to work to make changes in the way things are now- rather than how we wish they were.


here's the history of FDA involvement. The FDA wanted to regulate e-cigs as medical devices and were seizing shipments..... lots of them
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ads-everything-relevant-njoy-vs-fda-case.html


LK, in terms of tobacco harm reduction CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association has calls to action for state by actions that people can take, and this is where the current battle with the FDA stands
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-products-eliminate-many-most-companies.html

 

[lorikay13]

Thank you again CES.

And from a technical standpoint......being label as a drug delivery device would have put everyone but BIG TOBACCO out of business. At least temporarily....but for most...permanently. Any way you look at it we were screwed....the hope is the third classification. But then we will have another fight on our hands because there will still be the tax issue. We may get temporary classification but I'm betting they will still want clinical trials....and claim the outrageous taxes they will levy is what pays for that. Nicotine IS a drug.....so we are kind of in a corner here.

One thing is for sure.....what we don't need is bad press. And doing things that lead to injuries is bad press. I for one applaud ECF for their stance on high voltage mods. We either police ourselves.....or someone will do it for us.

(and don't think I say that because I use a little SmokeStik....I don't always use a SmokeStik...sometimes I use a full size SuperT or a VV boxmod. I COULD stack batteries in my SuperT to get 6volts.....but WHY???? And my VV never goes higher than 4.2V. WITH protected high quality batteries.)

 

[CES]

taxes are the next big battle. though it shouldn't be. But, given that the tobacco settlement money and "sin" taxes on tobacco are fully integrated into many budgets they either have to keep people smoking, or find the money elsewhere.

(i hate it when i sound like a conspiracy theorist)

 

[lorikay13]

hehe....and don't forget.....keeping people smoking is what keeps Big Pharma in business too...cancer makes money. Sickening isn't it?

 

[Allazar]

hehe....and don't forget.....keeping people smoking is what keeps Big Pharma in business too...cancer makes money. Sickening isn't it?

The last thing I have not seen here yet, is that Big Tobacco is firmly on the side of restricting it, or making it so burdensome that only they have the resources to fully comply with all of the regulation. The tobacco companies see Vaping as a major threat since their customer base is shrinking organically anyway, and now this throws yet another means of customers leaving their products. It began as a slow trickle, but once a community forms in any area, there is an explosion of users that switch from smoking to Vaping. The vaping community is a ball rolling downhill in Austin right now, and the nearest shop has expanded twice and is now looking to open a second physical establishment as well. It just makes sense if you are already smoking, to move to a product that is cheaper, satisfies the addiction, and is almost certainly (although not yet proven to be) less dangerous than smoking.

Big Tobacco is lobbying the FDA to make e-cigs go away or be taxed equally with cigarettes, since they lose money from vaping now, and are terrified that it will continue to snowball until they lose LARGE amounts of money to it in the future!

 

[kristin]

The last thing I have not seen here yet, is that Big Tobacco is firmly on the side of restricting it, or making it so burdensome that only they have the resources to fully comply with all of the regulation. The tobacco companies see Vaping as a major threat since their customer base is shrinking organically anyway, and now this throws yet another means of customers leaving their products. It began as a slow trickle, but once a community forms in any area, there is an explosion of users that switch from smoking to Vaping. The vaping community is a ball rolling downhill in Austin right now, and the nearest shop has expanded twice and is now looking to open a second physical establishment as well. It just makes sense if you are already smoking, to move to a product that is cheaper, satisfies the addiction, and is almost certainly (although not yet proven to be) less dangerous than smoking.

Big Tobacco is lobbying the FDA to make e-cigs go away or be taxed equally with cigarettes, since they lose money from vaping now, and are terrified that it will continue to snowball until they lose LARGE amounts of money to it in the future!

This is a common misconception - that Big Tobacco is behind the opposition to e-cigarettes - but we haven't seen that to be the case. Everything we've seen can be linked directly back to the drug companies or ANTZ (Anti Nicotine and Tobacco Zealots) who simply hate anything associated with nicotine and/or tobacco. The FDA considers its client to be the drug industry, so it is making every effort to protect it.

If you think about it, BT controls the source of the nicotine in tobacco, NRT and e-cigarettes, so they have a market either way. They are already starting to focus more on their smoke-free tobacco products and even getting into the e-cig market. And youth are not buying e-cigarettes - they are still more interested in cigarettes.

Drug companies, on the other hand, have the most to lose - smokers no longer need their nicotine products nor their drug treatments for smoking-related diseases. Not only do e-cigarette users stop buying gums and patches, but there will be drops in asthma and COPD medications, cancer drugs, etc.

Our two biggest opponents are Big Pharma and states dependent upon cigarette tax revenues. If e-cigarettes catch on big, BT just has one more product to offer. I don't think they see us as a threat anymore than they see nicotine gum as a threat, but rather they see e-cigarettes as a possible future market opportunity.

 

[Allazar]

This is a common misconception - that Big Tobacco is behind the opposition to e-cigarettes - but we haven't seen that to be the case. Everything we've seen can be linked directly back to the drug companies or ANTZ (Anti Nicotine and Tobacco Zealots) who simply hate anything associated with nicotine and/or tobacco. The FDA considers its client to be the drug industry, so it is making every effort to protect it.

If you think about it, BT controls the source of the nicotine in tobacco, NRT and e-cigarettes, so they have a market either way. They are already starting to focus more on their smoke-free tobacco products and even getting into the e-cig market. And youth are not buying e-cigarettes - they are still more interested in cigarettes.

Drug companies, on the other hand, have the most to lose - smokers no longer need their nicotine products nor their drug treatments for smoking-related diseases. Not only do e-cigarette users stop buying gums and patches, but there will be drops in asthma and COPD medications, cancer drugs, etc.

Our two biggest opponents are Big Pharma and states dependent upon cigarette tax revenues. If e-cigarettes catch on big, BT just has one more product to offer. I don't think they see us as a threat anymore than they see nicotine gum as a threat, but rather they see e-cigarettes as a possible future market opportunity.

Interesting... that makes sense in one light, but is not what I had heard anecdotally. Thanks for the information.

Our biggest problem (or at least my biggest annoyance) has always been the "smoking is bad and/or evil" people... they are the ones that placed exorbitant "sin" taxes onto tobacco in the first place beginning a black market for it. You already are beginning to see organized criminal organizations running cigarettes into Texas from Mexico where they are far cheaper, and other people ordering their cigarettes from overseas to avoid the taxes. If the taxes here in Texas matched what they are on the coasts then the drug cartels would be able to make as much or more money running cigarettes as they could from illegal drugs.

What those crusaders do not seem to understand are the lessons from prohibition...

 

[kristin]

Interesting... that makes sense in one light, but is not what I had heard anecdotally. Thanks for the information.

Stick around and keep reading. You have much to learn, Grasshopper.

 

[lorikay13]

I agree Kristin.....all is not what it seems. BT has everything to gain here.....if all they do is produce strains of tobacco for extraction of nicotine the just saved themselves a TON of money. Here is where we should be really worried about them.....the genetic manipulation of the tobacco plant itself. There is absolutey NO reason to believe they will not do the exact same thing with products manufactured for the ecig industry that they did with cigarettes. How is a small, sustainable ethical farmer of tobacco going to compete with someone able to produce "crack" nicotine? And you bet RJR and the like already have their patents filed and their factories in place to produce their own branded ecigs. How is VaporNine , SmokeStik,AquaVapor an all the rest of the small production company going to compete with the Marlborough or Winston ecig. And those guys have the money to field a 20-30% failure rate in electronics. They have so much financial clout you wont even have to call customer service and wait 6weeks for a replacement...just take it back to 7/11 and get a new one. Who will be able to compete with that?

 

[kristin]

From my understanding (so someone correct me if I'm wrong) the manipulation of cigarette ingredients to make it "more addictive" was changing OTHER ingredients which react to the nicotine rather than changing the nicotine itself.

As far as competing, how do the smaller companies compete with a big company like Blu? There will always be demand for upscaled, boutique devices and liquids. If BT gets into the market, they will stick with tobacco-flavored closed cartos. Just as companies like Blu or Smoke Stik currently have a market with new vapers who want something that emulates their favorite cigarettes, but many vapers move on to "something better," I believe that a BT e-cigarette will lead many others to the boutique market, as well. That's why it's important that we continue to fight for the business model of the smaller vendors who cater to that upgraded market.