Hey Mooch...

[ilporcupine]

I was watching one of your videos on Youtube, and you called out one of the battery brands for stating that batts were not to be used for ecig use, even though they were targeting vapers in ads. You have in the past recommended IMR as a vendor. I wanted you to know they also include a card stating "Do not use in ecig, vaporizer, or similar device".
I believe it is inevitable that the lawyers have them all doing the CYA. This may be a good thing, from the standpoint of availability, though, as if they did not do this, they would have to work a lot harder trying to keep them out of the markets which serve vapers!
Maybe a silver lining...
Thanks for all your good work.

 

[Mowgli]

Picture from Feb 2017 - LG HG2s from ecig.com - authentic

 

[Baditude]

 

[untar]

you called out one of the battery brands for stating that batts were not to be used for ecig use, even though they were targeting vapers in ads

Said company is rewrapping batteries for vapers to use (and by the way pirating the name of a vaping manufacturer). The big brands are simply manufacturing batteries without vapers in mind.
There is a big difference between those putting warnings on the label and a pirate piggyback rewrapper selling to vapers and stating they can't use the batteries.

 

[Celt1]

Sounds to me like:

Julio Posse
Director of Product Safety

Is a typical paper pusher - always looking to justify their job.

 

[stols001]

IMRbatteries.com sends that warning of late with every order I get. I don't actually blame them in the slightest, it is legal covering of butts, but to be fair these batteries weren't really designed for vaping applications, although they usually work well. It just becomes a problem when they are mistreated, or used past safety tolerances, and occasionally, something happens.

I actually view such warnings as the mark of a reputable, authentic vendor who wants nothing to do with "cloud chasing explosions" or whatever else. It completely makes sense to me. I'm sure they KNOW that they are being used for the purpose of vaping, certainly, and I would not want (if I were a company) to shoulder all the weight of possible problems in vaping applications and etc.

Anna

 

[Mooch]

I was watching one of your videos on Youtube, and you called out one of the battery brands for stating that batts were not to be used for ecig use, even though they were targeting vapers in ads. You have in the past recommended IMR as a vendor. I wanted you to know they also include a card stating "Do not use in ecig, vaporizer, or similar device".
I believe it is inevitable that the lawyers have them all doing the CYA. This may be a good thing, from the standpoint of availability, though, as if they did not do this, they would have to work a lot harder trying to keep them out of the markets which serve vapers!
Maybe a silver lining...
Thanks for all your good work.

For me it’s different when wrapping company or manufacturer does this and when a vendor does it.

For a vendor selling batteries to lots of different users I see it as a standard CYA liability move. But when a wrapper/manufacturer targets and sells to vapers, pockets the profits, and then says not to use the battery for vaping I get ....... They should just do what Sony and LG do, not market to vapers and try to keep them out of our hands.

 

[DaveP]

Back when vaping was a young industry no one worried about battery safety other than making suggestions to buy major brands with specs that would work at 10 and 20 watts. No one was pushing batteries that hard. Mech users were probably pushing things the hardest with sub ohm coils.

I can understand how battery manufacturers like to put specs in little boxes that pertain to specific applications. They can't be responsible for every home made application that people drop their batteries into. There are people pushing high amp applications in high wattage ecig devices using no-name cells with no idea of what's safe. The sad part is that the mods aren't smart enough to self test and report batteries that aren't up to high wattage/amperage applications. There's just so much intelligence that a handheld device can pack into a small package for under $75.

 

[cvigti]

Hey @Mooch !

Don't know how, or if it is even possible, to ask Mooch to review a battery (or a type of battery).

I would like Mooch to review/test more "MTL batteries", and not only High Amp rating ones.
This time I am speaking particularly of 26650 batteries.

For example I vape, on a regulated mod, between 15-20W. So I would need 7A (10A) rated batteries. This means I could have a lot more mAh in my batteries.
I only see tests for 26650 batteries for 20A or more. And they are all a little low on mAh.

I am waiting for stock to buy these batteries:
NKON | Keeppower IMR 26650 6000mAh - 20A - 26650 size - Rechargeable batteries

I would like to know if @Mooch has anything to say about them, especially if they really are 6000mAh or close. This is a lot more mAh then say, a popular iJoy 26650 (4200mAh I think).

These batteries would be perfect for my Geekvape Aegis and 15W vape

Thanks you!

 

[stols001]

Sometimes Mooch can. I know he's rated several of the 27- series batteries, most often finding that some of the "specs" may be inflated. You might actually find a "good" battery for you from some of the tests he's already completed, as many of them are kind of over rated as to capacity. I might almost "assume" that your current choice could be and might actually give you worse battery life than some of the "higher rated" 27-- series whose ratings really should be lower. It seems pretty consistent for many battery manufacturers to "overrate" their batteries slightly, so although I understand you are seeking a lower rated battery with longer run time, one of the ones Mooch has already tested may give you "close" to what you want in any case, while at the moment as you say, you are looking at a battery which you don't know its "actual" specs.

Although, Mooch may be able to test the cell for you, he may have a lot of things "in queue" already to be tested.

Best of luck,

Anna

 

[cvigti]

Sometimes Mooch can. I know he's rated several of the 27- series batteries, most often finding that some of the "specs" may be inflated. You might actually find a "good" battery for you from some of the tests he's already completed, as many of them are kind of over rated as to capacity. I might almost "assume" that your current choice could be and might actually give you worse battery life than some of the "higher rated" 27-- series whose ratings really should be lower. It seems pretty consistent for many battery manufacturers to "overrate" their batteries slightly, so although I understand you are seeking a lower rated battery with longer run time, one of the ones Mooch has already tested may give you "close" to what you want in any case, while at the moment as you say, you are looking at a battery which you don't know its "actual" specs.

Although, Mooch may be able to test the cell for you, he may have a lot of things "in queue" already to be tested.

Best of luck,

Anna

Yeah, I actually got interested in those keepowers when I first saw them because of two reasons. First, they were the highest mAh 26650's I could find. Second, Mooch reviewed some keepower's and one of them had a wrap rating of 4200mAh and Mooch's rating was 4500mAh! Imagine if this 6000mAh is the same way Also this tells me Keepower looks like a good battery brand, according to the one(s) Mooch reviewed.
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/attachments/9bd7d8fa-8447-4b84-a3b7-8eba6b4d440e-jpeg.712087/

The highest mAh cell that Mooch has on that table is the Schockli Black at 5500 mAh. If I could get those 500mAh or more, why not?
Also, it is difficult to find most of those batteries on Mooch's table here in Europe, and even if I find them they are usually very expensive and you pay a premium for shipping.
Most vape shops are also on the cloud chasing bandwagon and give priority to batteries with high Amp rating instead of mAh.

Thank you

 

[untar]

If I could get those 500mAh or more, why not?

Would depend if those 500mAh are in our usable range. If the battery has a higher inner resistance then it could perform worse (for vaping) than a good 5500mAh battery in which case you don't want the "extra" 500mAh ^^

 

[cvigti]

Would depend if those 500mAh are in our usable range. If the battery has a higher inner resistance then it could perform worse (for vaping) than a good 5500mAh battery in which case you don't want the "extra" 500mAh ^^

Humm...that must be something for Mooch to understand
In my mind, all our batteries are 3.7v. If they are within our Amperage usage, fine. Say a 20A Cont. Disch. to be used, in my case, with a wattage of 15-20w, so well within the Amperage. If my mod gives me the set regulated power until the battery reaches almost 3.2v, what does it matter if that same battery is 5000mAh or 6000mAh? Say I could in reality only use 4500mAh of the first battery, I guess I should be able to use 5500mAh, or near that, on the second battery, no? Or what you mean is that I could be using 4800mAh of the first battery and only 5000mAh of the second, because of the internal resistance?
This is all hipothetical and suppositions ofcourse, I have no real idea about this electrical stuff/batteries Just trying to understand how a battery, with the same average voltage (3.7v) and with an amp limit high enough for the usage, could be worse for having more mAh than another one.

 

[untar]

The battery will have a discharge curve, the curve can reach 3.2V relatively quickly or stay above for longer. All capacity below 3.2V isn't relevant for us, so if it drops below that line quickly the battery isn't interesting for us.
Not saying that's the case with the Keeppower, I don't know, but larger capacity doesn't necessarily mean longer vape time (assuming the numbers on the label are correct).

 

[Baditude]

Humm...that must be something for Mooch to understand
In my mind, all our batteries are 3.7v. If they are within our Amperage usage, fine. Say a 20A Cont. Disch. to be used, in my case, with a wattage of 15-20w, so well within the Amperage. If my mod gives me the set regulated power until the battery reaches almost 3.2v, what does it matter if that same battery is 5000mAh or 6000mAh? Say I could in reality only use 4500mAh of the first battery, I guess I should be able to use 5500mAh, or near that, on the second battery, no? Or what you mean is that I could be using 4800mAh of the first battery and only 5000mAh of the second, because of the internal resistance?
This is all hipothetical and suppositions ofcourse, I have no real idea about this electrical stuff/batteries Just trying to understand how a battery, with the same average voltage (3.7v) and with an amp limit high enough for the usage, could be worse for having more mAh than another one.

Performance graphs would point to an answer to that question.

Voltage on far left vertically. Capacity (mAh) horizontally left to right.

Depending upon the current load and how an individual battery responds to that particular load, one can determine how accurate the capacity rating (mAh) is. As Untar was pointing out, the graph may illustrate a longer performance to the end of the graph for a low amp requiring flashlight, but if the usable voltage falls below say 3.4 volts for vaping purposes it doesn't matter if the battery could continue performing for a longer time in a flashlight. A flashlight may only require 3 - 4 amps for acceptable performance.

Mooch did current loads of 10A (red), 15A (green), and 20A (purple) on the same battery in the above diagram. The capacity lines fall left to right as the battery discharges it current. Any line that proceeds past a usable voltage output (3.4 volts for example) is essentually irrelevant for vaping purposes. It might be perfectly acceptable in a flashlight, though.

In the end, one would have to compare one battery's graph vs the other to find the answer to your question.

Not sure that I explained that as well as Mooch might.

 

[cvigti]

The battery will have a discharge curve, the curve can reach 3.2V relatively quickly or stay above for longer. All capacity below 3.2V isn't relevant for us, so if it drops below that line quickly the battery isn't interesting for us.
Not saying that's the case with the Keeppower, I don't know, but larger capacity doesn't necessarily mean longer vape time (assuming the numbers on the label are correct).

I've tried to educate myself a little in this short period of time since my last post.
I went here:
What is battery internal resistance? | E-Cigarette Forum

The typical DC IR (which I'll just call IR) of a new Samsung 25R battery at room temperature is roughly 0.022-0.025 ohms. For a high-capacity 5200mAh 26650 battery the IR can be as high as 0.06 ohms. This is what causes the large voltage sag when we try to vape with these high-capacity 26650's at higher power levels.

So, to my understanding, this is basically the "sag" of the battery. I remember from my early days that a battery under load would sag in its voltage. I think I went into this when I tried some mech mods back in the day...
What it seems is that those 26650 batteries sag more than a comparable 18650, because of the higher mAh/size of the battery. That is why with a higher mAh I could end up with a battery that has more sag and wouldn't be able to provide the power I needed earlier than one with lower internal resistance/lower mAh. Is this somewhat right?

Mooch does say "This is what causes the large voltage sag when we try to vape with these high-capacity 26650's at higher power levels."
I wonder if my vaping at 15w is considered higher power levels...

How can a person know if X battery would be better than Y? It seems one would have to know the IR of the batteries and the lower the better...but then if a 5000mAh battery had a certain IR and a 6000mAh battery had another (higher) certain IR, how would one know if one would be better than the other? Oh boy... Mooch please test the battery and tell me if at my vape level it would be better than a lower mah battery

 

[untar]

Is this somewhat right?

Basically yes, total sag will be determined by chemistry and internal temperature as well.

How can a person know if X battery would be better than Y?

Mooch announced in one of his videos that he will put out Wh ratings, this will tell us which batteries really are better.

 

[cvigti]

Performance graphs would point to an answer to that question.

Voltage on far left vertically. Capacity (mAh) horizontally left to right.

Depending upon the current load and how an individual battery responds to that particular load, one can determine how accurate the capacity rating (mAh) is. As Untar was pointing out, the graph may illustrate a longer performance to the end of the graph for a low amp requiring flashlight, but if the usable voltage falls below say 3.4 volts for vaping purposes it doesn't matter if the battery could continue performing for a longer time in a flashlight.

Mooch did current loads of 10A (red), 15A (green), and 20A (purple). The capacity lines fall left to right as the battery discharges it current. Any line that proceeds past a usable voltage output (3.4 volts for example) is essentually irrelevant for vaping purposes. It might be perfectly acceptable in a flashlight, though.

Not sure that I explained that as well as Mooch might.

Yeah, that only shows what was/is already known, higher load, less mAh real usage. The question here is how the internal resistance affects that point until it reaches 3.4v. If a 6000mAh battery would reach 3.4v under load faster than a 5500mAh, for example (because of higher internal resistance of said 6000mAh). Making the extra 500mAh useless

 

[untar]

That graph is only one battery against itself. You'd have to compare the 6000mAh one with the 5500mAh one to see which one is better.

I don't remember which battery exactly it was (think a samsung or lg) but a german tester compared a high mAh 18650 10A battery to the 30Q and HG2, it only outperformed them below 4A load due to a relatively high IR.

 

[cvigti]

That graph is only one battery against itself. You'd have to compare the 6000mAh one with the 5500mAh one to see which one is better.

I don't remember which battery exactly it was (think a samsung or lg) but a german tester compared a high mAh 18650 10A battery to the 30Q and HG2, it only outperformed them below 4A load due to a relatively high IR.

Well...I vape at around those numbers... 15W/3.2V=4.7A or 15W/3.4V=4.4A