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FearTX

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I hate the way the word Clone is used around here.

There is a difference between Counterfeit and Clone. Every single person here uses cloned gear. Unless you have the original box mod or the original tube mod, the first one ever created, then you have a clone. Someone may have added refinements along the way, but it's still a clone, just like everyone else has.

Counterfeits carry logos and other distinguishing markings that are owned by someone else. They pass themselves off as a much higher priced designer product when they aren't.


A good analogy is blue jeans. Levi Strauss invented and patented the first ever pair of denim blue jeans. Every single company that makes them since has cloned Levi Strauss's design. They may add pretty stitching, or sparkles, or acid washed them to make them fade, or dyed them to make them black, but they're still all just clones of the Levi Strauss blue jeans design. Some are even extravagantly priced and called "designer jeans", but those are still clones that just copied Levi Strauss. Likewise we have designer mods that are extravagantly priced that people call "authentic" but in truth there is absolutely nothing authentic about them. They're all still clones of the box and tube mods that came before them with sparkles added so the seller can jack the price up and call them a designer mod.

Calling BS on all of this.

A: By your definition every circular saw, bandsaw, wrench, air conditioner, automobile, etc, etc. is a clone, this is not the case. In fact that entire premise is utter BS.
B: Denim jeans have been around since the 16th century in Europe. Levi Strauss and Jacob Davis patented rivet reinforcing of clothing. It was actually Davis' idea and Strauss' money. Prior to the riveting of the pockets for durability "jeans" and other clothing made from denim were the garments of peasants and poorer farmers for centuries before Levi clothing was patented. Pick another analogy.

US patent No. 139,121 for an "Improvement in Fastening Pocket-Openings", 20 May 1873


At the end of the day with vape gear supporting the theft of someone's work is a morale issue because very little of this is patented. By the way, patents expire at 17 or 19 years depending on the type of patent, and can in some cases expire sooner.

This is very much the case of the person who thinks the way sneakers look is important and not wanting to pay 200$ plus for some silly pair of shoes going to buy a 30$ pair of knockoffs.

I too buy some storebrand items. Mimicking the taste of a recipe through reverse engineering the flavor profile is a bit different than stealing a design. I also buy Walmart Ibuprophen for $6 per 200 capsules as opposed to name brand for 12$ for 50. Again this is a bit different as the patent on the formula has expired. These storebrands are also not copying logos or product names.

I personally do not care, buy what you want to afford and be happy, stay off the smokes, yada, yada. But don't cloud the decisions or justifications in flimsy false arguments made to make your self or someone else feel better about supporting the wholesale theft of someone else's work.
 
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nic_fix

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okay I liked both. they are both correct. sort of. let's say "clone" is something that is representative of something else without any directly identifying characteristics. a "counterfeit" is something that misrepresents a unique brands markings and unique identifying characteristics. whether said item is trademarked or not. the identifying markings are the sole property of the creator. notice I did not say "owner". as often they are not copy written. to put a blunt example, a box is a box. to take such a box that is not manufactured by let's say hana and embellish an hana logo upon it is fraud. you two are talking about two different things. in fact what we meant to state with the word "clone" in this instance is interchangeable with the word "counterfeit". it is simple manipulation of a words meaning. why we have websters. what we were explicitly speaking of here was counterfeit merchandise. that can be taken to be merchandise representative of a certain style. that is not the way we were using the word when we denounced said "clones". just to clarify the intent of our usage of the word and what it has come to represent in this market. please do not mince words. everyone is well aware of what it stands for in regard to this market. I mean to upset no one. just clarifying when a duck is a duck. put quite simply this is if ford wee to garnish it's automobiles with Mercedes logo's. maybe in this instance unfortunately legal but not cool. quite frankly if your budget is low buy a istick. counterfeits help no one. personally even if an original creation turns out to be of poor quality at least I did not slander and belittle it's founder. come on guys, stealing is wrong. there is no right reason to do so. ever. this is not solely my opinion. it is engrained in all decent walks of life. I mean not to offend or start a riot. the choice ultimately is up to the individual. I tell you my beliefs. your choices are your own and I may make a suggestion but in the end I fault none of mankind for their lifestyle decisions.
 

USMCotaku

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The irony is that you actually are faulting peoples choices, by publicly stating your opinion of how wrong it is.

Lets clarify a few points...

Counterfeit: Something made with the intent of deceiving.

Clone: An exact replica

(if something is being sold as a 1:1, clone, etc.. then it's not counterfeit.)

If something is made sans the logos (which would be better) it's not really a clone then, it's "in the style of...."

Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping.
 

nic_fix

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yeah I agree usm. my personal feeling is to never support black market goods. I said if other people wish to I do not dislike them solely based upon that choice.

you set it straight in less words than I did though. like the sx mini is similar to the eyes of another mod. it is by no means a counterfeit. that is okay with me. in the style of...a tribute too...etc. an exact copy with logo's not provided by the inventor there is simply only one word for. counterfeit. the joke and saving grace is these are often junk. not necessarily hurting sales of the originator. still to have them out there is shady on all accounts. notice these are not made in the usa.. then a simple lawsuit would suffice. they had to get around that because they knew what they were doing was an infringement of intellectual property.

again, if someone buys one I do not judge their character based solely on that. people sometimes use poor judgment. or don't realize the implications. just press order...it's $50. the proprietors of these ventures deserve to be thwarted in any way possible. in fact hana sued.

I hope we are on the same page. counterfeit goods account for a large loss of trade for the legitimate goods each year. don't need to stop people from buying them. just take measures not to import them.

I realize I may have skewed the actually terminology. what is not appreciated by myself are counterfeit goods. ie, fake rolex says rolex exact copy not made by rolex s.a. that is obviously a problem for rolex and company which they constantly deal with. if it meant nothing it would go unnoticed. I really think I am on the right side here.
 

USMCotaku

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Hana sued and won.....because they took the time to trademark their logo. IMO, there is a system in place to protect your company/goods, and if you don't use it, don't complain if you get copied :p.
Some people try and claim the system is too onerous and or expensive to justify these "authentic" makers not using it.... But it really isn't.
If its legal to copy, it's not immoral to buy in my opinion. I won't go out and buy a logo'd Hana clone post trademark, but have no issues with buying a logo'd clone if no trademark is filed (though I would prefer no logos). That's just my take on it, others opinions vary, and like I said recently in a clone vs. authentic thread....vape what you like, for the reasons you like, just be proud you aren't smoking :p
Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping.
 

nic_fix

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I see your point. my feeling even though it carries no weight is if someone makes something unique it belongs to them. even if it is not in legally secured status. many small artists and such honestly cannot afford a trademark pack. the notion that it is free is untrue. truthfully you are correct from a legal standpoint. I just feel there would be no creativity were it not held sacred. I have to hand it to you though you are correct. my personal feeling is to value creativity regardless of if it is a free for all. why copy and ride on the monetary heels of others? be unique. I just do not feel right about using fake goods. like if I lived in a fake house or something. no legal bearing but my opinion. on that note, if you really have something the dumbest thing you can do is not trademark/patent it.

I also agree in this very specific incidence of health. staying of tobacco takes precedence over anything. I am not a hypocrite. there is something bigger at stake in this rare instance. human life. that is why I said I judge no one. on the other hand you do not need a mont blanc pen. plus that is trademarked anyways.

to me though fake is more than morality believe it or not. even after my tangent on the subject. I feel fake when not used as a life saving device makes a person fake. that is solely my opinion and should have absolutely no value as to what others choose to do. really it is because fakes like Gucci belt are often trash. in that instance I would rather have wranglers.

you made a valid point. you are correct. I just like to think people value others efforts. of course in this age that means nothing. if it cannot be brought to court you lose by default. you got me there.
 

USMCotaku

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Not all clones are even made equal. When it comes to attys, it's too easy to find what you will like for reasonable prices in authentics. I mostly use kanger sub tanks....proof that a good product can be made at a reasonable price :p
I'm "guilty" of purchasing clones...i have very little "disposable" income, and didn't like the design of any of the cheaper"authentics" available. I specifically liked the function and durability of a specific mod, which I purchased for less then the cheapest authentic on the market at the time, and it's still going strong :p
I draw the line at trademarked goods. If the maker took the effort to protect their goods, they deserve to have that honored.
Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping.
 

HBcorpse

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Not all clones are even made equal. When it comes to attys, it's too easy to find what you will like for reasonable prices in authentics. I mostly use kanger sub tanks....proof that a good product can be made at a reasonable price :p
I'm "guilty" of purchasing clones...i have very little "disposable" income, and didn't like the design of any of the cheaper"authentics" available. I specifically liked the function and durability of a specific mod, which I purchased for less then the cheapest authentic on the market at the time, and it's still going strong :p
I draw the line at trademarked goods. If the maker took the effort to protect their goods, they deserve to have that honored.
Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping.

:nods in agreement:
 

nic_fix

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okay we are even. I helped a guy with no money get one to stop smoking. that I feel is warranted. I never saw a great clone. maybe I don't know where to look. truth is I said it never hurt rolex because those people were not in the market for one anyways. I honestly have a ego problem to tell the truth. I personally feel fake goods make me seem like a fake person. no one else should feel that way. copyright is different though. hardly enforced but a person could be arrested for the display of counterfeit goods. mainly they stop the purveyors and cargo though. I guess I agree copyright or not it is fair without the logo. the logo is really what holds the namesake. unless it is a very unique complex design. I mainly fear unknown goods with no point of origin could explode in my face. I guess it was harsh to say it is stealing. the end user hardly is the source of this stuff. it's just my feelings of self worth and should not apply to any well adjusted person.i have no stake in any mod maker. although I do understand losing your hard work. kudo's for hana to copyright it. I think these days they are a pretty big operation. she will not even let me speak to mr. hana now and this is my sixth one I bought in person at their factory. other makers you have to realize may not have the resources to partake in the patent process. you are really going to need an attorney for that or it won't be held.
 

dam718

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So uhh, how about that SXmini M Class? :D

You know... One of those high end regulated mods this thread was supposed to be about?

Mine came in today, and it's excellent!

0939351A-9437-483B-86E0-8FF476C8EC8C_zpsxgnlzwdi.jpg
 

nic_fix

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yeah, back to our regularly scheduled program. that is really nice. honestly though the provari just looks nicer. I love the yihi chips. the shroud design left me not sure if I would get the m-class. problem is dna40 keep croaking on me. I am just guessing yihi has no issues. I guess to me it kind of looks dated and not hi-tec. I mean you no offense though. enjoy it in good health. actually scratch that. if they have it where I am going in five hours i'll take one. the yihi chip just nails it.
 

dam718

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I've always been a fan of the ProVari, and agree that it looks nicer. Sitting it next to the SXmini was more for a size comparison rather than a beauty contest! :D

So I don't mind if you knock the looks. The important part is what's on the inside.. The SX350J chip is pretty amazing. And considering I am a long time ProVari user, I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb here to say the SXmini build quality is right up there with ProVari. Blasphemous in some circles, but man, it's nice. YiHi took a lot of design cues from the ZNA. This isn't a knock off of a ZNA by any means, but you can see the similarities. I was never much of a fan of the looks of the ZNA either.
 

IanDVaypes

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yeah, back to our regularly scheduled program. that is really nice. honestly though the provari just looks nicer. I love the yihi chips. the shroud design left me not sure if I would get the m-class. problem is dna40 keep croaking on me. I am just guessing yihi has no issues. I guess to me it kind of looks dated and not hi-tec. I mean you no offense though. enjoy it in good health. actually scratch that. if they have it where I am going in five hours i'll take one. the yihi chip just nails it.

If you saw the screen on the sxmini, you wouldn't say it's not hi tech.
 

USMCotaku

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So uhh, how about that SXmini M Class? :D

You know... One of those high end regulated mods this thread was supposed to be about?

Mine came in today, and it's excellent!

0939351A-9437-483B-86E0-8FF476C8EC8C_zpsxgnlzwdi.jpg


I thought I was all set and satisfied with the mods I have....a 260 watt beast for dripping, a ZNA50 and an ipv mini 2 for my sub tanks.... Don't need anything else I tell myself........
Then I saw one of these. My god I want one! I actually like it's styling (would like it even better if it was polished stainless steel). That yihi chip is where its at :p
I've been looking at my zna... Wondering if I could squeeze that chip in there :p
 

rcbell.N51

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So uhh, how about that SXmini M Class? :D

You know... One of those high end regulated mods this thread was supposed to be about?

Mine came in today, and it's excellent!

0939351A-9437-483B-86E0-8FF476C8EC8C_zpsxgnlzwdi.jpg

Mine should be waiting for me when I got home from work today. ProVape fanboy that I am, I'm still rather excited.
 
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