Historic example or Parable?

[LisaLisa]

While searching, I came across a verse that kinda interested me.......

With the resurrection of the righteous dead and the translation of the righteous living, and the death of the wicked, the earth is left desolate and uninhabited. “I beheld, and, lo, there was no man.” Jeremiah 4:25. Furthermore, the earth lies in ruins and a state of chaos.

It’s in this disorganized state of chaos, on the wasted, ruined earth that Satan is left for a thousand years to ponder his own imminent demise. “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled.” Revelation 20:1 – 3.



23. I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.
24. I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth.
25. I beheld, and indeed there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the LORD, By His fierce anger. Jeremiah 4:23-26.


No Man on the earth and the earth in ruins and the heavens had no light, guessing that means the sun? Is the entire planet destroyed? INTERESTING!


The Millennium and Satan: When Satan is Bound for a Thousand Years

 

[eHuman]

Ok, here is where my "oddball" way comes in . The Bible makes it very clear that hell is not forever, it will be destroyed when there is no more reason for it. When Satan is finally destroyed for good, hell is too.

Only answering this Q, I'm gonna ponder the rest.

Hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, but will it be destroyed? Consider:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire

So we have the beast, the false prophet, Satan, death, and Hades thrown into the Lake of Fire "and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

The Lake of Fire is the collective final resting place for it all and in Rev 20:10 it mentions eternal torment not annihilation.

 

[schaedj]

Related Q: Can sin go unpunished an God still remain righteous?

Sorry, didn't want to let this one slip by. The answer is not yes, it is no. The sins which we are forgiven were not unpunished. Christ was punished for those sins. Everyone whose sins were not place on Christ must suffer the punishment (eternal torment in Death) for themselves. It make you stop and think, when you are tempted to sin, that each sin you commit adds to Christ's suffering.

 

[Saintscruiser]

You both hit on what I was getting at and my question was posed (rhetorically) after the comments about hell. There are some "God fearing" Christians who don't believe in Hell. So the Q, Can sin go unpunished and God still remain just? (much better than righteous)

And that just as food for thought to anyone who may not fully believe or understand Hell. God doesn't want any including Satan (I believe) to go to Hell, but in order to remain just...

Hey.....where's my prize?????

 

[eHuman]

Sorry, didn't want to let this one slip by. The answer is not yes, it is no. The sins which we are forgiven were not unpunished. Christ was punished for those sins. Everyone whose sins were not place on Christ must suffer the punishment (eternal torment in Death) for themselves. It make you stop and think, when you are tempted to sin, that each sin you commit adds to Christ's suffering.

I see what you said (and agree with it BTW) as a no (instead of yes). Just semantics, but this is my whole point in asking the Q to begin with, in response to the validity of Hell.

Reasoning:
Jesus was punished for our sins. (Sins punished, God remains just).
For those who are hidden in Christ at the judgment, God sees His innocent sin and no need for punishment.
For those who are not hidden in Christ at the judgment, God sees guilt in need of punishment.

The bottom line (point) is that Hell has to be real, or else God cannot remain Just.

Schaedj, I love what you wrote! That very thing had gone through my mind allot early on as a Christian. When I think about the thing that I'm about to do now, that it will add to the punishment of what Christ went through then, it is very humbling.

I would "flip" it a bit and say to myself, "You can minimize what Christ actually went through by how you currently decide to live.

 

[eHuman]

Hey.....where's my prize?????

*

You get a big gold star!

 

[Saintscruiser]

*

You get a big gold star!

Okay....you really made me laugh out loud! Thanks, I needed that!

 

[HyOnLyph]

Southern Gentleman .. I'm hoping you expound.... a lot!!

 

[HyOnLyph]

So we have the beast, the false prophet, Satan, death, and Hades thrown into the Lake of Fire "and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

The Lake of Fire is the collective final resting place for it all and in Rev 20:10 it mentions eternal torment not annihilation.

I think this may be the point of Southern Gentleman's question. I sure hope he comes back and expounds on it. There are other thoughts among scholars that question whether or not "forever and ever" is really what it says or a King James translation that gets carried over to the most common theology. I don't pretend to be a scholar... and just because scholars believe something doesn't make it so... but it's interesting that there is an alternate explanation that is completely based in scripture.

 

[Southern Gent]

Southern Gentleman .. I'm hoping you expound.... a lot!!

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

Do these words teach unending punishment or unending torment? You decide. Word study time!!!

 

[HyOnLyph]

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

Do these words teach unending punishment or unending torment? You decide. Word study time!!!

I know what I think.... but I sure hope you come back and give us your views. I'm on a long conference call and can't really focus completely on this right now.

 

[LisaLisa]

I see what you said (and agree with it BTW) as a no (instead of yes). Just semantics, but this is my whole point in asking the Q to begin with, in response to the validity of Hell.

Reasoning:
Jesus was punished for our sins. (Sins punished, God remains just).
For those who are hidden in Christ at the judgment, God sees His innocent sin and no need for punishment.
For those who are not hidden in Christ at the judgment, God sees guilt in need of punishment.

The bottom line (point) is that Hell has to be real, or else God cannot remain Just.

Schaedj, I love what you wrote! That very thing had gone through my mind allot early on as a Christian. When I think about the thing that I'm about to do now, that it will add to the punishment of what Christ went through then, it is very humbling.

I would "flip" it a bit and say to myself, "You can minimize what Christ actually went through by how you currently decide to live.

Ok, I don't believe hell is a place for punishment. I don't think God works that way, I just don't. I believe in hell, but I believe that in the spiritual realm, there is only 2 places. Heaven, and outside of heaven which is hell. Satan and the demons reside outside of heaven, which is hell.

When a person rejects Jesus's sacrifice, they also reject God and reject being part of His Kingdom. We are made clean through the blood of Jesus, but a person who rejects that is dark and unholy.

Heaven is a Holy place, and unholy and holy can't reside together. So when a person rejects Christ they actually choose to go to hell and that's where they end up. It's a choice that each person makes for themselves. If you don't choose God, you choose satan by default.

The souls in hell are being tormented by satan and his demons because that's what they enjoy, inflicting torment on others. Satan and his demons are more powerful then the souls of the unbelievers there, so they suffer at the hands of these tormenters.

So, being in hell is a result of your choice you make while on earth.

 

[Southern Gent]

I know what I think.... but I sure hope you come back and give us your views. I'm on a long conference call and can't really focus completely on this right now.

I don't know seriously. I thought I did and then didn't. I've been on both sides of the argument at least a dozen times. If God's wrath for the sins of the entire world can be satisfied in 6 hours?
FWIW..I teach it as an absolute forever. I'm not sure however that the language supports it. It is the orthodox belief where I preach.

 

[LisaLisa]

I don't know seriously. I thought I did and then didn't. I've been on both sides of the argument at least a dozen times. If God's wrath for the sins of the entire world can be satisfied in 6 hours?
FWIW..I teach it as an absolute forever. I'm not sure however that the language supports it. It is the orthodox belief where I preach.

I'm also very interested in hearing your viewpoint of hell. Please share SG!!!!!!!!!

 

[HyOnLyph]

I don't know seriously. I thought I did and then didn't. I've been on both sides of the argument at least a dozen times. If God's wrath for the sins of the entire world can be satisfied in 6 hours?
FWIW..I teach it as an absolute forever. I'm not sure however that the language supports it. It is the orthodox belief where I preach.

Yeah, I hear ya. I'm more to the un-orthodox leaning. But you are right there are arguments for both. I teach that there are both arguments but it doesn't detract from the sacrifice of Christ. In fact, It quite possibly means that the Good News is even better news than we thought.

I think that in order to take an absolute position one way or the other, one has to ignore certain scriptures that validate the other side. And until we are able to reconcile those scriptures we can allow ourselves the freedom of being open to the Holy Spirit's leading.

I have some pretty good and relatively complete literature if you are intersted. I have it in PDF format and stored in a file online so you could download it. It's presented for the layman but is still very compelling. PM me if you are intersted. It was compiled by a very very highly respected scholar (now in his 80's) and written by a protege of his. (I know, that doesn't mean it's true... but I know the guy and at least I know his heart is pure.)

How bout you let the cat out of the bag and at least (as questions) or present it as you understand it in this thread. I'll chime in if I can. I'd really like to hear your thoughts. I think there are many others who might find it valuable.

 

[eHuman]

aion (ahee-ohn'); from the same as NT:104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):
KJV - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-] ever, (beginning of the while the) world (began, without end).

aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os); from NT:165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):
KJV - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Let scripture interpret scripture?
The same word "forever" (aion) is used (in Revelation) for both for Gods eternal reign as well as how long He lives for, the eternal Gospel, and our reign with Him.

It is also the same word used for the lost's eternal punishment and the length of time that the beast, the false prophet, Satan, death, and Hades will burn for in the Lake of Fire for.

NT:928

The word - basanizo (bas-an-id'-zo); from NT:931; to torture:
KJV - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
Is used in the following sentence:
Rev 20:10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

"forever and ever" is "aion ho aion". "ho" means "definite article" (as apposed to one of many, THAT ONE, or THE ONE) so this passage says literally translated, "tortured day and night for eternally THE eternity.

Not a picture of annihilation, but consciousness.



So (by the Greek) if the torment of Hell is temporary, then so is the length of God's life and reign.

 

[Southern Gent]

aion (ahee-ohn'); from the same as NT:104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):
KJV - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-] ever, (beginning of the while the) world (began, without end).

aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os); from NT:165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):
KJV - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Let scripture interpret scripture?
The same word "forever" (aion) is used (in Revelation) for both for Gods eternal reign as well as how long He lives for, the eternal Gospel, and our reign with Him.

It is also the same word used for the lost's eternal punishment and the length of time that the beast, the false prophet, Satan, death, and Hades will burn for in the Lake of Fire for.

NT:928

The word - basanizo (bas-an-id'-zo); from NT:931; to torture:
KJV - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
Is used in the following sentence:
Rev 20:10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

"forever and ever" is "aion ho aion". "ho" means "definite article" (as apposed to one of many, THAT ONE, or THE ONE) so this passage says literally translated, "tortured day and night for eternally THE eternity.

Not a picture of annihilation, but consciousness.



So (by the Greek) if the torment of Hell is temporary, then so is the length of God's life and reign.

Excellent work. Now clear up the issue with God giving Israel the land as an "Everlasting" inheritance. Did God lie?

 

[eHuman]

Excellent work. Now clear up the issue with God giving Israel the land as an "Everlasting" inheritance. Did God lie?

City of God come to earth in that land.... Nope! Heaven on earth.

(Wasn't sure what you were asking for so I winged it.)


Matt 19:29 "... will inherit eternal life.
Matt 25:34 ..."inherit the kingdom.
John 10:28 ...and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish;
Rom 6:23 ...but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Tim 2:10 ... so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus...
Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
Titus 3:7 ...we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1 Peter 1:4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable...reserved in heaven for you,
Eph 3:6 ... to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, ...
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
Rom 8:17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, ....
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Obsevations:
Jewish Inheritance is:
eternal life
eternal dwelling (kingdom)
will never perish
that eternal life is in Jesus
God cannot lie
He promised it long ago
gentiles are fellow heirs of the promise given to Israel (mystery revealed by Paul, All the above is ours too)
fellow citizens of God's house
fellow heirs with Christ
gentiles Christians are Abraham's descendants


Do we inherit the land as well?!?

 

[Southern Gent]

I'd think so.

 

[eHuman]

I am always surprised that orthoxy separates the promises, it's what we are told from the pulpets, it's what they are taught in seminary. But if we open the book and read it is much different. And it makes sense. God is one. We are all (saved Jews and Gentiles) in God.

We'll understand that more fully soon enough.