How are clones allowed?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Asmotron

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 28, 2013
120
237
United States
And for the love of god, get off the "you're rich" straw man please. I bought 150 dollar luxury items when I worked part time in retail. You don't have to make 6 figures to afford a freaking original rba!

But were there $25 functional versions of the $150 dollar luxury items you purchased?

Once upon a time I bought an HP TouchPad for $150 bucks because there was no way I could justify an iPad (not that I would want to) or a high end Android tablet. Does that put me in the same camp?

Drawing a line between buying a clone and stealing a game are way off the mark, as well. No one is stealing by buying a mod.

Also I thought I had read on ECF a week or two ago about a "high end mod" maker essentially saying that clones don't bother them because their stuff still sells out faster than they can make it. Not sure who it was, or where, and I'm too lazy to search.
 

crxess

Grumpy Ole Man
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 20, 2012
24,438
46,126
71
Williamsport Md
Also I thought I had read on ECF a week or two ago about a "high end mod" maker essentially saying that clones don't bother them because their stuff still sells out faster than they can make it. Not sure who it was, or where, and I'm too lazy to search.

Zen - 10chr:)
 
Last edited:

dw'struth

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 27, 2013
424
285
48
London, KY
Oh, it's a moral issue now. I feel terrible for not paying sticker price for my last car. I do have an excuse though.....my third-world upbringing. ; )
to be fair, $150 would not break me. However, it would be more useful to spend it on per-school supplies. I bet you didn't have a family to support when you were buying $150 atties while working retail, did you? It's all perspective, priority, and circumstance.
 
Last edited:

xan13x

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 13, 2013
221
204
USA
Then why didn't you just say so in the First place and save everyone the grief?
Not everyone speaks the same in reference and no one can assume others will understand what their point is.

Now, where's the Bar!:laugh:

I said I argue for a living and I enjoy my job... That's why! But seriously, heated debate, no matter how dead horse, always has the potential to teach both sides more about themselves and their own beliefs. As long as people understand that after "the game" is over we go to the bar lol.

Did I mention I love playing the devil's advocate? ;)
 

xan13x

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 13, 2013
221
204
USA
If the high end mods sell out faster than they can make them, there is ZERO business lost to clones. That's not to say the people who buy the clones wouldn't buy the real thing, maybe they would have if given the opportunity, but that's the mod makers fault and nobody else's.

I did qualify, many pages ago, that if something is a) out of production or b) backlogged to infinity, it's a different story.
 

UncleChuck

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 20, 2011
1,581
1,812
38
Portland
So the logic is "if someone can still sell something, who cares if someone steals it"? That's ridiculous.

" I have better stuff to do than Window shop for a $200 piece of glorified pipe I can't afford."

So the truth comes out. Do you apply that to everything? I can't afford a 60 dollar video game! I'll steal it, they will still sell thousands! Also, if it's a 200 dollar glorified pipe, please make me one for cheap! Heck I'll sit you in a room with all the tools you need. I expect an ithaka by the end of the week!

About the only reasons I can see for buying a clone/copy are a) it was a limited production run and the original is impossible to find b) there is like a year long or more wait, if they ever make more.

Your comparison breaks down because video games are widely available and don't suffer from manufactured rarity. If I want the new Halo game or whatever, I go to any number of local stores and have it in my possession within minutes. I realize some games are hard to get on release day or whatever, but you get what I mean.

High end mods are almost ALWAYS out of stock. Having TOO MUCH business is a good problem to have, and if they wanted to, mod makers could expand their business and increase output to come closer to meeting demand. But they choose not to. Either it's too much work for them, or they want to maintain their exclusivity. If they refuse to make their products more available, someone WILL make that product, or a similar product, and have it be more widely available. That's how things work. It seems the Chinese are the ones who truly support capitalism, you make a more popular product YOU WIN period.

It's a double standard anyway. ALL genny devices are copies or the original genny device made by Raidy. Raidy shared his ideas freely and openly and didn't ask for a cent. He released plans for genny devices for people to make and use as long as they aren't profiting from them.

Fast forward to today, we have many many many commercialized genny devices. Maybe zen doesn't care about cloners because he realizes that even his own high-end device is basically a copy of someone else's work with a few modifications, which is basically what ALL clones are.

It's incredibly hypocritical for any high end genny maker out there to vilify clones, and it's just plain ignorant to vilify clones and support high-end gennys, when all high-end gennys are based on a design stolen and used for profit, when it was released for everyone to use free of charge.

And even if people started putting a patent on their products, how would that happen? Who gets a patent on genesis technology? Who gets a patent on a carto? On a simple tube with a switch? On a microprocessor that controls voltage? Who has the right to keep these features as their own? Nobody in my opinion. Patents would kill innovation in the vaping community. The reason the vaping market moves so incredibly fast is because everyone is constantly trying to make a better product.

Right now there are millions of clones everywhere, and the pace of new development and new ideas is still speeding up. It's been proven false that lack of patent protection will stifle advancement (same argument, and it's always wrong) because right now we have basically zero patent protection and STILL are experiencing light speed advancement.

The tech and methods are open source basically. But companies still have a right to keep their brand. I don't think there is anything wrong with chinese stuff that's similar to other products. I don't think it's OK to make a perfect 100% copy and brand it with the same name and then sell it. Then your not really stealing a product's design, which everyone already does and is no biggie, your stealing their brand and reputation.
 

grindle

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 4, 2012
217
82
Cork
Most if not all high-end mods that have clones made to... "honour" them... are sold out incredibly quickly. If it weren't that hot a mod it wouldn't get cloned.
Not much in the way of discussion until some mod-maker outsources the production to a Chinese workshop with respect for high tolerances and gets a competitive-by-piece-number production run going.
There might be an argument then, but until supply can meet demand the mod-makers aren't hurt. Maybe the rarity-flippers could get hurt, but I doubt it considering the prices most items sell for on FB groups.
 

Orobas

Equine Disrespect
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 3, 2012
7,766
6,264
40
Jarhead City
So the logic is "if someone can still sell something, who cares if someone steals it"? That's ridiculous.

" I have better stuff to do than Window shop for a $200 piece of glorified pipe I can't afford."

So the truth comes out. Do you apply that to everything? I can't afford a 60 dollar video game! I'll steal it, they will still sell thousands! Also, if it's a 200 dollar glorified pipe, please make me one for cheap! Heck I'll sit you in a room with all the tools you need. I expect an ithaka by the end of the week!

About the only reasons I can see for buying a clone/copy are a) it was a limited production run and the original is impossible to find b) there is like a year long or more wait, if they ever make more.

It's a battery in a pipe. It's not rocket science. buffing it to a high shine or stamping a logo on it doesn't impress me enough to make me want to shell out for it, sorry. It's like comparing starbucks to gas station coffee. Different audiences entirely, neither are left wanting.

I'm saving the connections from my ego batteries as they slowly expire one by one so that I can do precisely that, thanks.
 

Coastal Cowboy

This aggression will not stand, man!
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 13, 2013
5,975
21,941
62
Alabama Gulf Coast
www.ibleedcrimsonred.com
This discussion could also extend to artisan liquid chefs like AVE and Backwoods. Their most popular liquids sell out as soon as they're in stock.

Both operations could easily meet demand if they wanted to. They simply choose not to, and by doing so, encourage others to dupiclate their methods or processes and capitalize on meeting the unsatisfied demand.

It ain't wrong. It's capitalism.
 

Orobas

Equine Disrespect
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 3, 2012
7,766
6,264
40
Jarhead City
I did qualify, many pages ago, that if something is a) out of production or b) backlogged to infinity, it's a different story.

Which was the point I was making when I said that THESE HIGH END MODS SELL OUT WITHIN MINUTES ANYWAY.

And you argue for a living? pfft lol.
 

peakcomm

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 24, 2013
118
225
Somewhere in the US in my RV
The "intellectual property" notion is a western invention, completely foreign to the typical Chinese. So, repeated complaints about their lack of respect for our patents are met with blank stares.

This! And it's worth pointing out that this particular western invention has gotten out of control. Copyrights and patents were originally created to encourage innovation by giving artists and inventors a limited-time monopoly during which they could reap exclusive benefits from their creativity. But the term was short, so that other artists/inventors could improve existing ideas once they entered the "public domain." The broader public benefit of continuing innovation in the marketplace was considered to be much more important than the personal benefit of the original creators.

Somewhere, we lost that sense of the greater public benefit and started extending the protected term longer and longer. Suing real innovators based on bogus intellectual property infringements has become an industry in itself -- whole companies exist that produce nothing, just buy up old patents and use them to extort licensing payments (to avoid litigation) from other companies.

And those who do innovate by creating better, cheaper or more accessible versions of an original product are often considered cheaters. If you truly believe in the power of a free market, they aren't cheating at all. They are extending innovative benefits to a broader public.
 
Last edited:

fourtytwo

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 8, 2012
1,471
1,182
Toronto
This discussion could also extend to artisan liquid chefs like AVE and Backwoods. Their most popular liquids sell out as soon as they're in stock.

Both operations could easily meet demand if they wanted to. They simply choose not to, and by doing so, encourage others to dupiclate their methods or processes and capitalize on meeting the unsatisfied demand.

It ain't wrong. It's capitalism.

I like it.
The largest communist country in the world seems to be doing capitalism better.
 

Coastal Cowboy

This aggression will not stand, man!
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 13, 2013
5,975
21,941
62
Alabama Gulf Coast
www.ibleedcrimsonred.com
This! And it's worth pointing out that this particular western invention has gotten out of control. Copyrights and patents were originally created to encourage innovation by giving artists and inventors a limited-time monopoly during which they could reap exclusive benefits from their creativity. But the term was short, so that other artists/inventors could improve existing ideas once they entered the "public domain." The broader public benefit of continuing innovation in the marketplace was considered to be much more important than the personal benefit of the original creators.

Somewhere, we lost that sense of the greater public benefit and started extending the protected term longer and longer. Suing real innovators based on bogus intellectual property infringements has become a industry in itself -- whole companies exist that produce nothing, just to buy up old patents and use them to extort licensing payments (to avoid litigation) from other companies.

And those who do innovate by creating better, cheaper or more accessible versions of an original product are often considered cheaters. If you truly believe in the power of a free market, they aren't cheating at all. They are extending benefits to a broader public.

I blame the lawyers.
 

xan13x

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 13, 2013
221
204
USA
This discussion could also extend to artisan liquid chefs like AVE and Backwoods. Their most popular liquids sell out as soon as they're in stock.

Both operations could easily meet demand if they wanted to. They simply choose not to, and by doing so, encourage others to dupiclate their methods or processes and capitalize on meeting the unsatisfied demand.

It ain't wrong. It's capitalism.

Again, you're not using the word capitalism correctly. Making a product of the same class to meet demand is capitalism. Grabbing someone's product, "making a mold of it" if you will, and selling it is not capitalism. It's theft.
 

UncleChuck

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 20, 2011
1,581
1,812
38
Portland
This! And it's worth pointing out that this particular western invention has gotten out of control. Copyrights and patents were originally created to encourage innovation by giving artists and inventors a limited-time monopoly during which they could reap exclusive benefits from their creativity. But the term was short, so that other artists/inventors could improve existing ideas once they entered the "public domain." The broader public benefit of continuing innovation in the marketplace was considered to be much more important than the personal benefit of the original creators.

Somewhere, we lost that sense of the greater public benefit and started extending the protected term longer and longer. Suing real innovators based on bogus intellectual property infringements has become a industry in itself -- whole companies exist that produce nothing, just to buy up old patents and use them to extort licensing payments (to avoid litigation) from other companies.

And those who do innovate by creating better, cheaper or more accessible versions of an original product are often considered cheaters. If you truly believe in the power of a free market, they aren't cheating at all. They are extending benefits to a broader public.

Excellent post!

People forget that a patent isn't a tool to make sure nobody ever makes anything similar to your product. It's basically a way to make sure the time and effort put into a product were worth it. If you used resources developing a product, a patent is there to make sure you can earn back your money (and a profit)


Even if used "correctly" patents would still be useless in the vaping world. China isn't under US law, they can make whatever copies they want. Patents would only stifle the small scale manufacturers, as the big boys in China don't care what protections you think you have on a product. And the small scale manufacturers are the ones being copied, not making copies, so it wouldn't accomplish anything.

If people are truly against clones and china imports, you know what you do? Produce your own Hybrid or mech, produce it in great numbers, and give the masses what they want. They'll stop buying Chinese clones when there is an AVAILABLE product on the market. IHybrid seems to be attempting to do this with the Pure, and I'll bet that if more high end producers start following their lead, you'll see a drop in the amount of china clones of those types of products.
 

crxess

Grumpy Ole Man
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 20, 2012
24,438
46,126
71
Williamsport Md
I like it.
The largest communist country in the world seems to be doing capitalism better.

Sanctions down
Western education up

If you like it - steal it, change it and call it your own. Yes, this has been an industry practice since the beginning. The trick is not getting caught. China missed that class.:laugh:
 

UncleChuck

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 20, 2011
1,581
1,812
38
Portland
So, to the clone haters out there, do you have a problem with the Magnetic Mods Windrose?

The Windrose is a "high-end" limited production device. It also looks more like a Caravela than it has any right to. It looks more like a caravela than Segelie's actual caravela clone.

So.... you guys hate the Windrose and Magnetic Mods? Because you really should, if you have something against stealing other people's designs. I don't care what engraving or interior bits the Windrose has, it looks very very close to a Caravela, and that is evidently the standard being used to judge products. If it looks close to another product it's a knock-off and it's stealing.

By no means am I saying that MM's goal was to copy the Caravela. But the product came out pretty damn similar. So you have chinese Caravela clones that are less accurate clones being bashed for stealing designs, but the Windrose that has more in common with a real caravela isn't bad for some reason, and is an awesome great device. Why? Because it's made in low numbers, and is expensive?

Honestly I think some people are simply against the idea of everyone having access to cheap, decent quality mechs and rbas. They want to hold onto their idea of superiority and exclusivity with their products. Because if the real cause of the clone hate is some moral objection to using other people's designs, there are more than a few "non-clones" that fit the same bill and don't get any venom shot at them. The Windrose for example.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread