How can insurance companies charge extra for nicotine use...

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Barbara21

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...when the FDA has said that long-term nicotine use is safe??

Yes, this is a serious question.

I'm not saying smoking is safe. I'm not even saying vaping is safe (though I believe it is). But as a legal matter - if someone is using nicotine (patches/lozenges/gum) - how can health insurance charge a surcharge when the FDA has 1) approved them for over-the-counter purchase and 2) says that the health effects are negligible?

In case you're wondering, here's the appropriate section from the Federal Register 04/02/2013. https://www.federalregister.gov/art...erapy-products-for-over-the-counter-human-use

In the years since NRT products became available for OTC use, a number of studies have examined the use of NRT products over periods longer than 12 weeks. We have reviewed the published literature on this longer-term use of NRT products and have not identified any safety risks associated with such use. A well-known and highly regarded study on the effects of long-term use of NRT products is the Lung Health Study, in which almost 6,000 smokers were given access to free nicotine gum for up to 5 years (see Murray et al., 1996). In this study, over 1,000 subjects were still using the gum after 1 year. The adverse effects of long-term nicotine gum use reported by these subjects were described as minor and transient, and there was no correlation between long-term gum use and cardiovascular events. A followup study found that long-term ad lib use of nicotine gum neither increased nor decreased the Lung Health Study subjects' likelihood of developing cancer (see Murray et al., 2009).

Granted, it's not 20 years worth of studies and it's referring to nicotine gum but it's still significant. The FDA considers nicotine an over-the-counter drug that 1) is safe and 2) can be used indefinitely.

(Obviously the whole point of this is that if insurance companies have to charge nicotine gum users regular rates, it's very hard to justify charging vapers a surcharge.)
 

Scarey

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Better question: How can insurance companies be allowed to exist, since they artificially inflate the cost of medical treatment, by removing the competitive element from the market, thus causing the deaths of millions of low-income individuals, simply because they can afford neither the insurance nor the treatment?bYou wonder why an industry based on earning a profit from human suffering is creating human suffering?
 

WarHawk-AVG

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Better question: How can insurance companies be allowed to exist, since they artificially inflate the cost of medical treatment, by removing the competitive element from the market, thus causing the deaths of millions of low-income individuals, simply because they can afford neither the insurance nor the treatment?bYou wonder why an industry based on earning a profit from human suffering is creating human suffering?

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Booyah! So tell us how ya really feel ;)
 

Barbara21

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Its impossible to tell if the nicotine in ones system is from a hazardous delivery mechanism such as smoking/chewing or a reduced risk source like patches, gums, ecigs or snus.

Assuming that is true - and I'm not saying it is or isn't, I simply don't know - it shouldn't really make a difference.

I have life insurance. If I die, the insurance company pays. If they suspect I was trying to cheat them (by buying life insurance and then committing suicide), then they investigate. If they can prove their suspicion, they don't pay off.

That's true with anything - the assumption that both parties to a contract (the individual and the insurance company) are acting truthfully. The contract is then voided if it can be proved that one party acted with false intentions.
 

darkstorm

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Assuming that is true - and I'm not saying it is or isn't, I simply don't know - it shouldn't really make a difference.

I have life insurance. If I die, the insurance company pays. If they suspect I was trying to cheat them (by buying life insurance and then committing suicide), then they investigate. If they can prove their suspicion, they don't pay off.

That's true with anything - the assumption that both parties to a contract (the individual and the insurance company) are acting truthfully. The contract is then voided if it can be proved that one party acted with false intentions.

Unless one comes down with lung cancer, lip cancer, COPD, or emphysema I doubt a health insurance company is going to test for nicotine in your system. There is a troubling increase of smoke free employers that DO require employees to take random drug/nicotine screenings and will fire employees for using nicotine off the clock. (including NRTs and ecigs) Life insurance is a whole different matter. If you get hit by a bus (heaven forbid) and you lied about being a nicotine/tobacco user on your forms, they can deny your entire benefit claim. I know some claims adjusters whose job is to look for ways to violate a claim on such technicalities.
 

Baditude

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Ummmm.... because they are a 'for profit' business?, as always, follow the money.

darkstorm said:
Its impossible to tell if the nicotine in ones system is from a hazardous delivery mechanism such as smoking/chewing or a reduced risk source like patches, gums, ecigs or snus.
Both of these answers are valid.

Another one is: "Because they can".
 

darkstorm

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naw you got it all wrong nicotine in patches and gums are safe and effective , nicotine in ecigs cause cancer and will kill you cause we didnt sell them to you

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' -Reagan

Ever notice how switching to a less harmful form of nicotine consumption breeds a disdain for government, big pharma and others in pretty short order? Hilarious.
 

Barbara21

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Again, I would like to point out that I said from a 'legal' standpoint.

I personally find it hard to believe that there's not some test that can differentiate whether someone has been smoking or vaping. (Heck, we all know about the several thousand additional chemicals in cigarettes, can't they test for some of them instead?)

I actually have a great deal of faith in our legal system, especially the higher courts. Maybe it's wistful thinking but I like to think that if/when it actually comes to a lawsuit, the insurance company would have to prove that 1) vaping is as dangerous as cigarettes and 2) there's absolutely no way to tell the difference between someone vaping and smoking to justify their higher premiums.
 

KnurledNut

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Its impossible to tell if the nicotine in ones system is from a hazardous delivery mechanism such as smoking/chewing or a reduced risk source like patches, gums, ecigs or snus.

That's not entirely true.

A buccal (cheek) nicotine test can only determine if nicotine is present, not the amount. A urine nicotine test, however, can determine the levels of nicotine in your system. Based on the nicotine levels in your urine it can be determined if your using a nicotine replacement or nicotine from tobacco, which is higher.
 

WarHawk-AVG

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Again, I would like to point out that I said from a 'legal' standpoint.

I personally find it hard to believe that there's not some test that can differentiate whether someone has been smoking or vaping. (Heck, we all know about the several thousand additional chemicals in cigarettes, can't they test for some of them instead?)

I actually have a great deal of faith in our legal system, especially the higher courts. Maybe it's wistful thinking but I like to think that if/when it actually comes to a lawsuit, the insurance company would have to prove that 1) vaping is as dangerous as cigarettes and 2) there's absolutely no way to tell the difference between someone vaping and smoking to justify their higher premiums.
Those THOUSANDS of supposed chemicals are a moot point...literally zero, nada, nil

Want a way to test for it..check carbon monoxide levels in the bloodstream...

Old timers are hating this (I post it alot)...because people need to know what the TRUE dangers of cigarette smoking are....even seasoned smokers don't know (they kinda know...but do they REALLY know)...and guess what http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-liquid-discussion/465485-its-not-nicotine.html

either you work in an area flooded with car exhaust or you suck on tailpipes or you smoke cigs...hmmmm
 
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SissySpike

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Im thinking they are a big business. They pay lots of money to lobby and have influence in Washington. With this influence they get gooberment regulation to make us buy and pay for their service.

How many of us spend much if any time calling their reps and congressmen about where they stand or know how much money they receive from insurance lobbies ?

So ultimately it is our fault for trusting a gooberment machine we know is corrupt but we do very little to stop it.
 

Barbara21

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Those THOUSANDS of supposed chemicals are a moot point...literally zero, nada, nil

Want a way to test for it..check carbon monoxide levels in the bloodstream...

<snip>

Can anyone confirm this? I did a quick google and it seems promising but would like something more definitive. (And Warhorse, it's not that I don't believe you but I would simply like confirmation.)
 

KnurledNut

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A carbon monoxide blood test is used to detect poisoning from breathing carbon monoxide (CO), a colorless, odorless, poisonous gas. The test measures the amount of hemoglobin that has bonded with carbon monoxide. This amount is also called the carboxyhemoglobin level.

When a person inhales carbon monoxide, it combines with the red blood cells that normally carry oxygen to the body's tissues and replaces the oxygen that is normally carried in the blood. As a result, less oxygen is carried to the brain and other body tissues. Carbon monoxide can cause severe poisoning and death.

Carbon monoxide is made during burning when there is not enough oxygen present for complete combustion. The main sources of carbon monoxide are engine fumes (such as from cars or boats), fires burning with poor ventilation (such as gas heaters and indoor cooking fires), factories, and smoking tobacco.
 
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Fulgurant

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Yeah, insurance companies are pretty much the lowest of the low, scum of the earth. They represent the only industry that encourages you to pay through the nose and hope that you never get anything for it. If the day does come when you might need the service that you've paid for, they will do everything in their power to compound whatever tragedy has befallen by fighting you, even over relatively minor things.

On this nicotine issue, though? Give it time. The beautiful thing about the proliferation of vaping and NRTs is that more and more people won't fit into the insurance company's neat little nicotine-equals-tobacco box. And eventually, a court will have to recognize that it's both unjust and scientifically backward to equate nicotine with tobacco. Insurance companies may get away with voiding valid claims on irrelevant technicalities (as admirably described by darkstorm, earlier in the thread) for awhile, but all it takes is one headline-grabbing verdict to reverse the trend. Trust me when I say that the insurance companies are more worried about that possibility than you and I are; they're more likely to settle any potentially high-award/high-stakes case rather than they are to hang their hats on the nicotine thing.
 
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