How do you tell the chemistry of each cell or battery?

[Bamspleno95-055]

I just got a hold of a bunch of Sanyo UR18650Y cells. I want to use them in a Kbox, but the research says to only use IMR or "Safe Chemistry" batteries. Is there a web site that lists the chemistry of each brand or model #. I looked up the Sanyo UR1850Y and found spec. information, but the chemistry was not listed. I also have a few Panasonic NCR18650B's What chemistry are these? and how/where would I find the chemistry specs?

 

[Mooch]

They're both "hybrid chemistry" cells. The NCR18650B is an INC cell, lithium-nickel-cobalt. I don't know the specific chemistry for the UR18650Y. Hybrid chemistries, such as INR/NCR/NMC/INC/LCA/etc. are safer than ICR but not quite as safe as IMR.

Here is the NCR18650B datasheet : http://na.industrial.panasonic.com/sites/default/pidsa/files/ncr18650b.pdf

IMR = highest thermal runaway threshold temperature, lowest temperature during runaway, rarely sparks/flames.
Hybrid Chemistries = lower thermal runaway threshold temperature, higher temperature during runaway, may be sparks/flames.
ICR = lowest thermal runaway threshold temperature, highest temperature during runaway, violent reaction usually with sparks/flames, essentially the same chemistry as LiPo.

But the UR18650Y maxes out at under 4A and the NCR18650B maxes at at 6.4A. They can only be used for vaping at the lowest power levels. I advise against using them in a Kbox.

 

[Bamspleno95-055]

The spec sheet for the UR18650Y: http://na.industrial.panasonic.com/sites/default/pidsa/files/ur18650y.pdf

The kbox calls for a 18650 battery to have "an output of 20A or above" in this spec chart it doesn't directly state or list the "output"
it does list the capacity as Min.1900mAh and Typ. 2000mAh

Question:1. Is the output the same as Capacity?
2. Min. 1900mAh is that minimum 1900mAh ? and Typ. 2000mAh is that Typical 2000mAh?
3. Does 1900mAh equal 19A and 2000mAh equal 20A ?

 

[Mooch]

1. Output typically refers to the amount of current, in milliamperes or amperes. A battery's output rating can be derived from a "maximum discharge current" specification or by looking at the discharge charts. In the case of that battery there's no specific rating but the charts go up to "2C", or two times the current portion of the capacity rating (yea, the whole "C" thing is very confusing). Since the rated capacity is 1850mAh the recommended max discharge current is about 3700mA or 3.7A.
2. Yes, for both.
3. No. 2000mAh = 2000 milliampere-hours. It's not a current rating, it's a "capacity" rating that lets you know how long the battery will run. You get it by multiplying the current by the running time. For a 2000mAh battery, it should run at 2000mA for 1 hour...or 1000mA for 2 hours, or 4000mA for 1/2 hour. Batteries are not 100% efficient though so you can't extrapolate the capacity rating out to something like 100,000mA (100A) for 0.02 hours.

 

[supertrunker]

1900 mAh is 1.9A. It is a measure of capacity, or the total current the battery holds. So a drain of 1.9A on that battery will see the battery lasting one hour in constant use.

The 20A is the maximum the battery can provide at a time (else it heats up, vents, explodes, runs off with a neighbour etc). Suffice to say if you draw 20A from the battery it will last a lot less time between charges. The 20A is the maximum constant discharge rate and it's a figure you ought to always build within for safety.

T

 

[Mooch]

1900 mAh is 1.9A. It is a measure of capacity, or the total current the battery holds. So a drain of 1.9A on that battery will see the battery lasting one hour in constant use.

The 20A is the maximum the battery can provide at a time (else it heats up, vents, explodes, runs off with a neighbour etc). Suffice to say if you draw 20A from the battery it will last a lot less time between charges. The 20A is the maximum constant discharge rate and it's a figure you ought to always build within for safety.

T

It should be noted that the UR18650Y battery cannot be discharged at 20A! That number is the battery rating that is recommended for the kbox.

 

[suprtrkr]

I won't comment on the battery issue, with @Mooch here to set you straight, but I will say well done for being smart enough to come and ask instead of just plugging a 4A battery into a Kbox.

 

[sonicbomb]

Put simply mAh (capacity) is one side of the seesaw, the amp rating is on the other. You can't have both and one increases at the expense of the other. The price difference between a good battery with a high continuous discharge rate and a bad one is negligable, so get yourself some Sony VTC4 or Samsung 25R.

 

[Bamspleno95-055]

Put simply mAh (capacity) is one side of the seesaw, the amp rating is on the other. You can't have both and one increases at the expense of the other. The price difference between a good battery with a high continuous discharge rate and a bad one is negligable, so get yourself some Sony VTC4 or Samsung 25R.

From what I researched Sony does not make the VTC4 or any Li-ion batteries anymore, and the one's for sale now are all phony baloney.

 

[Mooch]

As I understand it the VTCs have always still been in production. And Sony still makes millions of LiIon betteries a year for their corporate customers. They were just not being sold to anyone evenly remotely connected with vaping. They are now available again from reputable vendors like illumn.com, rtdvapor.com, orbtronic.com, etc. I have tested these VTC4's and VTC5's and they meet all of the manufacturer's specs.

You can use 25R's in the kbox without problems too.

 

[sonicbomb]

Fukushima caused Sony massive production problems which may have accounted for the unavailability their batteries.

 

[Mooch]

Fukushima caused Sony massive production problems which may have accounted for the unavailability their batteries.

I heard about that. Did Sony have other factories do the manufacturing while they built/rebuilt theirs?

 

[sonicbomb]

I don't know.

 

[DaveP]

This chart isn't absolutely up to date, but it covers most of the batteries we use in ecigs. Scroll down in the charts to see discharge rates at various loads.

Battery test-review 18650 summary

 

[Bamspleno95-055]

I don't understand the discharge levels in these charts, they don't list Amp discharge? I need a 20A discharge or more for my Kbox, all those charts don't list discharge in Amps?, if they do can anyone tell me where?

 

[nyiddle]

Gonna make things easy on you. Get one of these batteries. Rest easy.

18650 LG 18650HE2 2500mAh High Discharge Flat Top
18650 LG 18650HE4 2500mAh High Discharge Flat Top
18650 Sony US18650VTC4 2100mAh High Discharge Flat Top
18650 Sony US18650VTC5 2600mAh High Discharge Flat Top
18650 Samsung INR18650-25R 2500mAh High Discharge FLAT Top

None of the batteries you mentioned (Sanyo or Panny) are suitable for vaping.

 

[Bamspleno95-055]

The Sanyo I understand, but the Panisonic NCR18650B I bought from a Vape shop, the selling point...that it's great for VV/VW MODS (i.e. my Kbox) being it has a long batt. life but a lower amp.output... & not suitable for a Mech Mod. (many online Vape shops sell these?). If I use the Panny in my kbox set to only 8W would I still have a problem?

 

[Baditude]

The Sanyo I understand, but the Panisonic NCR18650B I bought from a Vape shop, the selling point...that it's great for VV/VW MODS (i.e. my Kbox) being it has a long batt. life but a lower amp.output... & not suitable for a Mech Mod. (many online Vape shops sell these?). If I use the Panny in my kbox set to only 8W would I still have a problem?

The Panasonic 18650B is a great flashlight battery, not really designed to be a great e-cig battery. The low amp CDR prohibits it.

I've done extensive research of mod batteries over the last 3 years. My blog below lists all of the recommended IMR batteries available with their mAh capacity and amp CDR.

Battery Basics for Mods
A popular and essential read to understand which batteries are safe to use in mechanical and regulated mods. Includes a frequently updated list of recommended safe-chemistry, high-drain batteries with their specifications.

Deeper Understanding of Mod Batteries
For those who want to learn the differences between IMR, IMR/hybrid, and ICR batteries. What do those numbers and letters on batteries mean? What's an amp rating and why is it more important than the mAh rating when choosing a battery for vaping?

 

[Mooch]

I don't understand the discharge levels in these charts, they don't list Amp discharge? I need a 20A discharge or more for my Kbox, all those charts don't list discharge in Amps?, if they do can anyone tell me where?

If you scroll way down to "Current" you'll see the discharge current ratings for all the batteries. The highest rating on the chart is 10A. It does cover the Panasonic and other high capacity batteries though.

@Baditude's links list the ratings for the higher amp batteries.

 

[Bamspleno95-055]

So...The Panisonic NCR18650B is not safe for any use in vaping? Could I use it in My VW Kbox set at the lowest 8w in conjunction with my vivi nova tank with a 1.8 ohm coil?