HuffPo - "Why Smokers Should Be Shamed" (and by extension, vapers)

[Kent C]

@Kent C:



Yes, that sounds a little confusing, unless you were extensively educated in German history (which I was).

The "National Socialists" were the Nazis. "NATIonalsozialisten". When you pronounce the word in German, it starts with the sound "NAZI". Thus, the "Nazi"s. The Socialists were a completely different political party. And one whom the Nazis exterminated during their rule. Same as the Communists. They destroyed all who were different from them. As is common in dictatorships.

I have some education in German history but not to your extent. The book mentioned earlier "Liberal Fascism" gets into a detailed differentiation within Germany and also Italy's fascism (which was not 'anti-Semitic').

And I do understand there are differences in 'parties' even though the 'type' of governing policies can be quite similar - where the state is sovereign, but where the enforcement is different. So in Europe mostly, you'll have a Socialist Democrat party, a Democrat Socialist party, a Social Democrat party, a Labour Party, etc. etc. All basically socialistic in nature, sometimes in bed with each other and sometimes at each others' throats Similar to the Socialist party and the Liberals here and the Republicans and Libertarians as well.

And I truly understand this part: "They destroyed all who were different from them." ...even within their party.

 

[Bramble]

Bram bam, I'll bet she even uses air fresheners in her home, maybe even those plug in kind that result in THAF that has no half life.

I guess I could have summed up that rant by just saying, "Yes Jemma, your excrement does have a foul odor." But as you can imagine, the circles I have been in, I have seen some real self-righteous sanctimonious crap. But I have never seen anything like what the ANTZ spew out night and day and then have the nerve to come after people who have QUIT tobacco but enjoy their nicotine in another way that doesn't appear to cause significant harm to themselves and even less harm to anyone else. They hate that we are having a good time.

 

[patkin]

I've always been puzzled by people who seem to enjoy hating.... always have to have something to hate whether its a thing/person or group. In this extremely health-conscious culture we're currently living in with, in particular, the nanny state types (not a particular Party as its across the board,) don't they realize that being filled with hatred is just as much a threat to their health as eating the "wrong" foods, being the "wrong" weight or, shudder, smoking? I just don't get it and probably never will.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

<snip>
When they start trying to "shame" smokers by making them wear a yellow star on their clothing, that it will be the very last opportunity for the people to take action.
<snip>

1) Smokers already do wear a kind of "badge of inferiority" because they have to huddle outside in the winter, and keep clear of doorways, intakes, etc. Vapers also wear that badge, in addition to being forced to carry the oder of cigarette smoke - in order to vape in places where vaping is treated as smoking for purposes of indoor/outdoor clean air acts, and "smoke free" facilities/parks/etc. This is only going to get worse. And yes, this is part of the ANTZ plan - they want us to be viewed as smokers, so being physically huddled with them, and smelling like them is precisely the point.

2) That said, I don't generally go along with the kind of parallels to the Nazis mentioned frequently in this thread by many posters. Unfair discrimination/differerential treatment of various subgroups of humans has been around for a very long time. It's rarely a preamble to efficiciently-systematic, bureacratically-managed genocide (which is itself a particularly uncommon form of behavior in human history). The fact that no immutable characteristic such as ethnicity is involved here also makes the parallels to (say) Rwanda less compelling.

One thing that's so despicable about the Jemma Wayne piece is the fact that she goes overboard (at the very least) in ascribing a threat of physical harm from those whom she clearly loathes. And while I understand that there's a tongue-in-cheek use of the term "Nazi" (as in Sienfeld's "soup Nazi"), I'd rather be a bit more careful when using the term in other contexts.

The ANTZ may wish to make our lives miserable, and may also be heedless of the risk posed by denying THR to smokers, but I have yet to be convinced that they possess the requisite murderous intent of the S.S.'s task forces (einsatzgroupen - sp?) and the Nazi high command who carried out "the final solution."

 

[DrMA]

Ok, let's all agree to call them the "tobacco Taliban". It has all the fanaticism and none of the genocide connotations.

 

[rothenbj]

Ok, let's all agree to call them the "tobacco Taliban". It has all the fanaticism and none of the genocide connotations.

But doesn't the Taliban commit atrocities against the infidels?

 

[Kent C]

2) That said, I don't generally go along with the kind of parallels to the Nazis mentioned frequently in this thread by many posters. Unfair discrimination/differerential treatment of various subgroups of humans has been around for a very long time. It's rarely a preamble to efficiciently-systematic, bureacratically-managed genocide (which is itself a particularly uncommon form of behavior in human history). The fact that no immutable characteristic such as ethnicity is involved here also makes the parallels to (say) Rwanda less compelling.

The problem with this is that many uninformed only relate fascism to the ethnic aspect when in fact it is a type of governance that starts down the slippery slope well before anything like that occurs. The confiscation of weapons, the attempt to stop smoking, and a whole list of regulations happen well before the atrocities, which started with the demonization - something that smokers and now vapers have experienced. The article Cool Breeze posted about 'smokers' brains' isn't encouraging either. .... and that should be pointed out rather than hidden from view. No one has said that it is in any way equal to what happened in the end, it is not! ...or that, that will be the final outcome, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of what came before. Censoring history or "steering away from it", almost assures some of the same mistakes will be made again.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

<snip>

Maybe it all starts with vegetarianism.

 

[Kent C]

Maybe it all starts with vegetarianism.

Or an ever increasing debt due to 'reparations', a gov't created inflation, and heavy regulation and nationalization of some industries. (iow, the latter years of the Weimer Republic).

 

[DrMA]

But doesn't the Taliban commit atrocities against the infidels?

Isn't "quit or die" such an atrocity?

Taliban like the ANTZ want to impose their moral values onto everyone else, at all costs and by any means. They use tactics like misinformation, propaganda, demonization of the "infidels" and a "join us or die" attitude. Sound familiar?

 

[Anjaffm]

Isn't "quit or die" such an atrocity?

Taliban like the ANTZ want to impose their moral values onto everyone else, at all costs and by any means. They use tactics like misinformation, propaganda, demonization of the "infidels" and a "join us or die" attitude. Sound familiar?

Well said.

The problem with this is that many uninformed only relate fascism to the ethnic aspect when in fact it is a type of governance that starts down the slippery slope well before anything like that occurs. The confiscation of weapons, the attempt to stop smoking, and a whole list of regulations happen well before the atrocities, which started with the demonization - something that smokers and now vapers have experienced. The article Cool Breeze posted about 'smokers' brains' isn't encouraging either. .... and that should be pointed out rather than hidden from view. No one has said that it is in any way equal to what happened in the end, it is not! ...or that, that will be the final outcome, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of what came before. Censoring history or "steering away from it", almost assures some of the same mistakes will be made again.

Thank you. Well said. I fully agree.
The mindset is the same.

Oh, and has not some old lady died, frozen to death, after taking a smoke break outside the old folks home where she lived? When the door slammed shut behind her? That was one avoidable death. The death of a human being. Quit or die.

And how about the oh-so-funny "Snipers could soon snuff out smoking" article quoted - with picture - by .... Puddlecote?
What You Won't Hear From ASH | .... Puddlecote

@Roger_Lafayette:

Wake up. The hatred of and discrimination against a large segment of the population is real. With people standing idly by. Saying nothing. Doing nothing. Watching it happen.

Read that "shaming" hate speech again. Look at what .... Puddlecote quoted.Including the picture. And the text beneath.
And then read this again: http://www.tobakkonacht.com/preface.html

I was born in Germany. 15 years after the end of WWII. 15 years after the end of the Third Reich.
I was taught and educated to see the signs. And I see the signs now.

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

And by the way, to a German person, the term anti-smoking "Endgame" sounds very much like "Endlösung". Which means precisely "final solution".

 

[Anjaffm]

Oh and as to the attitude of the ANTZ to their fellow man, here is a "study".
Very interesting to read. Especially when one realizes that those "researchers" are not talking about laboratory animals. Instead, they are talking about human beings.

Read it carefully. No, they are not talking about rats or mice.
They are talking about human beings.

The researchers found that total home bans were more effective in reducing smoking among persons 65 years and older and among females, while city smoking bans were significantly associated with quit attempts in males, but not females. Total home bans were more effective in households without children, possibly reflecting the ultimate goal of cessation rather than primarily reducing children's secondhand smoke exposure. Neither race nor income significantly modified relations between total home bans and smoking reductions.

Total smoking bans work best -- ScienceDaily

And no, in the interest of not raising a horrible subject, I will not mention what this "study" and the cold, detached tone in which human beings are described, reminds me of.
I once had to learn about ... similar .. things. I had to learn about those who treated human beings with cold contempt, with a complete lack of compassion. Treated human beings like laboratory animals.

Enough said. It is not a subject for polite society. But those from Europe, they will know.

 

[Jay-dub]

You know MIT recently released it's "paper generator" that uses an algorithm to produce bogus science papers and submits them to reputable journals. I'm linking to the Google search so you can choose your own source.
MIT Scientific Paper Generator.

Edit: I'm citing this link for the purpose of showing a growing, reasonable lack of trust for scientific publications throughout society.

 

[coalyard]

True tyrants rarely just lawlessly seize power. They always act "for the greater good", or in reaction to some real or perceived crisis. They always seek to control the conversation and set the agenda, thus the "for the children" meme, which is just that, a burning strawman set up to distract from the real issue at hand, which is ultimately the removal of personal liberty; "for your own good / for the good of society".

Not to be overly political about this, but it goes well beyond smoking or e-cigarettes, and this type of thing never ends well. The abdication of personal liberty and autonomy to the government or anyone else is a frightening proposition, there are 100's of millions of dead over the past century to prove that fact. The "war" on smoking, or e-cigarettes is just a small piece of a horrible mosaic, but it is the one we are most aware of, by virtue of the fact that we are affected by it. Truthfully examine our own bill of rights, and ask yourself how many of them are in danger. They are in danger because they represent your right to personal freedom, not granted by government, but by being natural human rights. Tyranny cannot exist with these rights in place, which, considering the current erosion of them by the government, should make everyone very scared. Not just because you won't be able to vape anymore.

Sorry for being long here, but I believe this is a much bigger thing than meets the eye. Did you ever wonder why they seek to divide us? Rich vs. poor, smokers vs. non smokers and vapers, black vs. white, gay vs. straight, democrat vs. republican? Yeah.

Thanks Annaffm, for the invite to this thread.

 

[Anjaffm]

@coalyard:
Excellent posting! Thank you!

True tyrants rarely just lawlessly seize power. They always act "for the greater good", or in reaction to some real or perceived crisis. They always seek to control the conversation and set the agenda, thus the "for the children" meme, which is just that, a burning strawman set up to distract from the real issue at hand, which is ultimately the removal of personal liberty; "for your own good / for the good of society".

So true.

 

[Kent C]

True tyrants rarely just lawlessly seize power. They always act "for the greater good", or in reaction to some real or perceived crisis. They always seek to control the conversation and set the agenda, thus the "for the children" meme, which is just that, a burning strawman set up to distract from the real issue at hand, which is ultimately the removal of personal liberty; "for your own good / for the good of society".

Not to be overly political about this, but it goes well beyond smoking or e-cigarettes, and this type of thing never ends well. The abdication of personal liberty and autonomy to the government or anyone else is a frightening proposition, there are 100's of millions of dead over the past century to prove that fact. The "war" on smoking, or e-cigarettes is just a small piece of a horrible mosaic, but it is the one we are most aware of, by virtue of the fact that we are affected by it. Truthfully examine our own bill of rights, and ask yourself how many of them are in danger. They are in danger because they represent your right to personal freedom, not granted by government, but by being natural human rights. Tyranny cannot exist with these rights in place, which, considering the current erosion of them by the government, should make everyone very scared. Not just because you won't be able to vape anymore.

Sorry for being long here, but I believe this is a much bigger thing than meets the eye. Did you ever wonder why they seek to divide us? Rich vs. poor, smokers vs. non smokers and vapers, black vs. white, gay vs. straight, democrat vs. republican? Yeah.

Thanks Annaffm, for the invite to this thread.

Well said! You would enjoy a book by George H Smith "The Systems of Liberty: theories in the history of classical liberalism" ... that's 'classical liberalism' not the current downgrade. It shows the history and difference between the principled view - natural rights, vs. the pragmatic view - 'for the greater good' ... and how the principled view actually fulfills both goals, and how the pragmatic view achieves neither.

 

[RosaJ]

True tyrants rarely just lawlessly seize power. They always act "for the greater good", or in reaction to some real or perceived crisis. They always seek to control the conversation and set the agenda, thus the "for the children" meme, which is just that, a burning strawman set up to distract from the real issue at hand, which is ultimately the removal of personal liberty; "for your own good / for the good of society".

And they will blatantly create a crisis so their cause appears relevant.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

And they will blatantly create a crisis so their cause appears relevant.

Crisis is already here. And it's been created by the Tobacco Control Industry. The game plan was laid out here:
http://dropproxy.com/Dropproxy
f/661

Now the messaging is coming to fruition. It's not the people who yell the loudest who are responsible. It's the folks who put together the press releases, who lobby gov't behind the scenes, and who design the studies, peer review them, and so forth.

Our real opponents are the Tobacco Control Industry.

 

[coalyard]

Kent, I will add that book to my "to read" list, it sounds very interesting. Of course, principled liberalism fulfills both the ideals of personal freedom and the greater good. Locke wrote extensively about the natural rights of man as they exist in nature as well as how they relate to society in general. The founders, of course, relied heavily upon the enlightenment philosophers of the time when they wrote both the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution.

Obviously, law, philosophy, and how all of that relates to society is a very extensive subject, but for the purposes of this thread, it is safe to say that the encroachment on personal liberty by the government is NOT among the ideas the founders had in mind when they wrote the rules. As a matter of fact, many of the complaints leveled against King George 3 could apply to our own government today, and then some. It is something that is very troubling to me, but even more troubling is the number of people who just do not see the problem, or simply do not care.

RosaJ, yes, they will create a crisis if necessary. It has happened many times before, and as I have said, the results are never good.

 

[Kent C]

Kent, I will add that book to my "to read" list, it sounds very interesting. Of course, principled liberalism fulfills both the ideals of personal freedom and the greater good. Locke wrote extensively about the natural rights of man as they exist in nature as well as how they relate to society in general. The founders, of course, relied heavily upon the enlightenment philosophers of the time when they wrote both the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution.

Obviously, law, philosophy, and how all of that relates to society is a very extensive subject, but for the purposes of this thread, it is safe to say that the encroachment on personal liberty by the government is NOT among the ideas the founders had in mind when they wrote the rules. As a matter of fact, many of the complaints leveled against King George 3 could apply to our own government today, and then some. It is something that is very troubling to me, but even more troubling is the number of people who just do not see the problem, or simply do not care.

The current list of a 'long Train of Abuses and Usurpations' would make Jefferson's list look like 'nit picking' (and it wasn't at the time)