Fixed it now, my bad. Super Bowl day over here and I wrote this hastily.
I need throat hit. Zero nic is awfull
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Fixed it now, my bad. Super Bowl day over here and I wrote this hastily.
@ aprioristic
Without quoting that painfully huge wall of text, a few points:
The book quoted is not a study on capsaicin in riot gas. That is a medical textbook, and I tried my best to find where the studies they listed were NOT peer reviewed, and I have been unable to find anything. That still stands I'm afraid.
Just because a chemical might have anti-cancer properties, that does not "cancel out" the carcinogenic nature of the chemical. That is faulty logic and silly. As if we could stick Oats into cigarettes and somehow they are "safer" for the anti-cancer properties.
In that great wall of text, you did not disprove the toxicity of capsaicin, nor that it is safe at all for inhalation willingly. Reduced amounts? So how does that justify introducing more carcinogenic agents into a liquid, when the point was to get off cigarettes in the first place? Seems counterproductive and silly just for TH.
What I cited was the limit of what I could according to ECF rules on quoting of copyrighted text. That is a medical textbook not a study of capsaicin in riot gas. Very misleading statement. As you can see (and ty for the link that is soooo much easier to browse than the print book I have) that was from two separate sections, and while it may seem to have been cherry picked it was what was most appropriate to what was being discussed. If you wish to see where I quoted in the print version it begins on pages 501-505. While I appreciate your wanting to debate the issue, please fully read the textbook before repudiating it.
I still see no justification for introducing capsaicin into ejuice unknowingly to customers, and quite obviously regardless of what the toxicity levels may be, capsaicin is toxic to humans by route of inhalation, chronic or acute toxicity is a red herring. If you are willing to vape it, enjoy this is America I wouldn't deny you that. But do NOT tout it as safe at any levels, it is not. It is bad enough we are fooling around with poisonous nicotine, why should we be adding what is irrefutably known to be an irritant, and toxic at higher levels?
Without quoting that painfully huge wall of text, a few points:
The book quoted is not a study on capsaicin in riot gas. That is a medical textbook, and I tried my best to find where the studies they listed were NOT peer reviewed, and I have been unable to find anything. That still stands I'm afraid.
Just because a chemical might have anti-cancer properties, that does not "cancel out" the carcinogenic nature of the chemical. That is faulty logic and silly. As if we could stick Oats into cigarettes and somehow they are "safer" for the anti-cancer properties.
In that great wall of text, you did not disprove the toxicity of capsaicin, nor that it is safe at all for inhalation willingly. Reduced amounts? So how does that justify introducing more carcinogenic agents into a liquid, when the point was to get off cigarettes in the first place? Seems counterproductive and silly just for TH.
What I cited was the limit of what I could according to ECF rules on quoting of copyrighted text. That is a medical textbook not a study of capsaicin in riot gas. Very misleading statement. As you can see (and ty for the link that is soooo much easier to browse than the print book I have) that was from two separate sections, and while it may seem to have been cherry picked it was what was most appropriate to what was being discussed. If you wish to see where I quoted in the print version it begins on pages 501-505. While I appreciate your wanting to debate the issue, please fully read the textbook before repudiating it.
I still see no justification for introducing capsaicin into ejuice unknowingly to customers, and quite obviously regardless of what the toxicity levels may be, capsaicin is toxic to humans by route of inhalation, chronic or acute toxicity is a red herring. If you are willing to vape it, enjoy this is America I wouldn't deny you that. But do NOT tout it as safe at any levels, it is not. It is bad enough we are fooling around with poisonous nicotine, why should we be adding what is irrefutably known to be an irritant, and toxic at higher levels?
"Water intoxication, also known as hyper-hydration, water poisoning, or overhydration, is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside of safe limits by over-consumption of water"
Water is not a mutagenic, and carcinogenic chemical by nature, and comparison to capsaicin is apples to oranges. Silly argument is silly dear.
Water is not a mutagenic, and carcinogenic chemical by nature, and comparison to capsaicin is apples to oranges. Silly argument is silly dear.
I have this exact thread going on Vapers Forum. It has been suggested that vaping PGA has negative health effects. Does anyone know if there is any validity in these statement? I tried to find some info on this, but I am no chemist/scientist. Just an ex-smoker looking to do away with nic, and still enjoy the ceremony of smoking. But, it wouldn't make any sense to substitute the nic for something just as bad or worse.
Yes, your argument is silly. You are attacking a strawman. I didn't say that water was mutagenic or carcinogenic. I said that it can be toxic when used far out of normal levels, just like capsaicin.
You are the one who came in here with your snippets talking about peer reviewed journals but that sentence the author used cites no studies in relation to the claim. You have also still done nothing to back up the claims besides the bare assertion by the author. Show me a study of capsaicin where there is toxicity at these levels people are vaping.
The book is talking about different chemicals being used for riot control. For instance where it is talking about capsaicin causing problems with thermoregulation, that is regarding people who get doused with pepper spray and are probably taking the piss from some cops. There's no reason to believe that people are going to more easily get heat stroke from inhaling a small amount of capsaicin. It seems like a minor concern at best to me.
Another strawman. You really ought to stop employing logical fallacies if you want to talk about logic. You haven't proven that capsaicin is a carcinogen at the levels we're talking about in the first place. Once again there exist studies that say this, none specifically cited by you or your book. There also exist studies criticizing those that have said capsaicin is a carcinogen.
The burden of proof is on you to back up your original statements. The book you have does not cite a single source for the claims of being a mutagen or carcinogen, especially at the levels we're talking about.
Do you realize how little of the flavorings used in ejuice have been tested at all for inhalation safety? It is under 5% of them. Many of the vendors who have gotten listed on the "list of diacetyl free companies" still have diacetyl in them. We don't know that it is harmful the way it is used here, but it is true. There has been a lot more research done on capsaicin than most of these flavorings.
The justification for e-cigarettes is harm reduction. People want added heat in order to replicate the analog experience rather than going back to analogs. You are doing a disservice to people when you give misleading info. I never said that capsaicin is clearly 100% non-harmful, but you are trying to cause alarm that is unjustified.
The medical textbook is talking about OC being used in riot control. You need to just stop arguing these points if you can't get studies that actually relate to use at the levels we're talking about with vaping. I already showed why vaping small concentrations of capsaicin is not the same as the amounts in this book.
To reach the LD50 given by your source, a 50kg (110lb) person would need to inject roughly 2/3 a bottle of Diablo Loco.
I read enough to see that the author quite clearly cited zero research to back his claim of capsaicin being mutagenic or carcinogenic.
I would disclose that capsaicin is used if I were Nihkil, but I don't have any issue with him not doing so. It would probably just lead to more false alarms like yours. I've seen this so many times on ECF. Someone pulls out an MSDS sheet giving warnings and forgets totally what we're really talking about.
Your talk about capsaicin being toxic is the real red herring here. We're not talking about use at the levels in research on LD50s. It is nowhere close. Please stop wasting my time when you have zero evidence.
Again, water "is toxic at higher levels". I still advocate drinking water at non-toxic levels. I also never said that it was 100% safe. Capsaicin kills by airway constriction mainly. The amount of irritation we could be getting is so minor that it doesn't seem to be any issue except where people have asthma or obstructive lung disease already. I said to proceed with caution if you have these problems, and even then I haven't seen anything conclusive. It seems like very little concern for more healthy ex-smokers. There are actually studies too of small amounts of capsaicin aiding pulmonary function.
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Aprioristic,
Your point has been very well made. I wouldn't waste anymore time on this argument either, if I were you. His argument is very weak at best! Hey, why don't we spray people with pure nicotine and see what kind of health effect that has on them? You'd most likely end up with a lot of dead people, yet we add this to our juice....hmmm. Let's not be talking apples and oranges, please! The only way to get definitive answers is actual testing at the levels that would be present in e-juice.
I've got some jalapeno juice on the way, I'm trying to get some info on what's in this Throat Hit Plus stuff, and may order and try that, TW Diablo is an option I'm likely to explore, I've become a bit afraid of PGA but will probably try that too.
Vaping is and always will be a "lesser of the two evils" type situation, IMO. So the question should be, is this any worse for me than nicotine? Not, is this absolutely healthy. I would argue that inhaling anything but air is inherently unhealthy. So is dipping steak in drawn butter, but I do that too. ;-)
Your point has been very well made. I wouldn't waste anymore time on this argument either, if I were you. His argument is very weak at best! Hey, why don't we spray people with pure nicotine and see what kind of health effect that has on them? You'd most likely end up with a lot of dead people, yet we add this to our juice....hmmm. Let's not be talking apples and oranges, please! The only way to get definitive answers is actual testing at the levels that would be present in e-juice.
I've got some jalapeno juice on the way, I'm trying to get some info on what's in this Throat Hit Plus stuff, and may order and try that, TW Diablo is an option I'm likely to explore, I've become a bit afraid of PGA but will probably try that too.
Vaping is and always will be a "lesser of the two evils" type situation, IMO. So the question should be, is this any worse for me than nicotine? Not, is this absolutely healthy. I would argue that inhaling anything but air is inherently unhealthy. So is dipping steak in drawn butter, but I do that too. ;-)
OMG, steak with butter and hot pepper eating contests, my favorites! I love you guys. 
Now, let's see if someone can make buttery steak habenero juice, I would certainly give it a whirl. Actually, I enjoy reading all of the studies everyone posts.
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I don't know about puffing on no jalepenos, but I can tell you that high voltage vaping is just like O.O
I don't think anyone has suggested it yet, but check this out: YouTube - DIY Throat hit with Cayenne Pepper extract
He uses cayenne extract. He said it's very harsh and probably wouldn't do it again, but I am almost certain that you can lower the mixture amount and it wouldn't be near as bad. Just some food for thought.
He uses cayenne extract. He said it's very harsh and probably wouldn't do it again, but I am almost certain that you can lower the mixture amount and it wouldn't be near as bad. Just some food for thought.
well I can say even reduced loranns cinn oil is downright lethal...I put 1 drop in 20 vg added 3drops pga and drew it into syringe and back out of syringe(with needle on) until emulsified and choked for 5 min...b4 u go calling me lightweight I did the habanero extract which I use in my cooking and that was nothing in comparison...and I can get some pretty good TH w it. Bear in mind that is not a recommendation to anyone else to do it I am a Texan and eat Spicy food all the time over half my food comes w jalapenos or some kind of pepper.Cumon how many of u have habanero extract in your kitchen...anyway I think a good bit of it comes down to personal taste and experience.pepper ext can b worked w from my exp for me but it takes a soft touch w it on the other hand it will b a long time b4 I even go near the cinnamon oil even mixed down I just handed it to my better half and told her she had some new flavoring...lol
try some diablo poco flavoring.......just a little i mean a little...its very hot but it gives the throat hit without watering ur juice down. Decadent Vapours 10ml Flavour Concentrates i havent dared to try the diablo loco the diablo poco is kick enough for me 
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