I resent ECF's campaign regarding the New Mexico State Rep. Liz Thompson

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Infernal2

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I believe Democrats need to take some lumps on this issue. They are totally selling out on it. They are generally the science-based, populist party ... why they are whiffing so bad on ecigs is beyond me.

I'm bipartisan in my disgust of pseudo-science. Frankly, I do see the incumbents position in this as disturbingly pseudo-scientific and she should be addressed to that issue. I'm a little cautious however in automatically supporting her "pro-vaping but also sadly pseudo-scientific" opponent.
 

beckdg

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Blu, Mark Ten, and some others all sell crappy e cigs and most of us don't want their pre filled cartos. So if one of them bottled their liquid instead of trying to sell prefills then they may have something there. Just like njoy recently starting doing. RT didn't invest in Johnson Creek to throw their funds away, they see the value and profit in selling bottled liquid. That's where the market is right now.

Sure new people will try the cig a likes, just as most of us probably did at some point. But we also realized those things didn't work good and for the most part we wanted more, so we looked into better setups. Marlboro or Camel, or whoever would be wise to brand and bottle their own liquids

ROFL

But they're not. They're not suckers. They're major industry. They've done their homework. They make their moves behind closed doors. Why do you think that is? Why do you think they're not looking for better products or to lead the current market In its current direction? It's a global market with innovation coming from every direction. Your new atty is "obsolete" faster than your new android phone... before it's distributed to the retailer. New juices are all the rave... This month.

BT has been riding the cash cow on products that haven't innovated In over a century.

Look at the EU for a model of the minimum they're looking to push globally as far as legislation. Consider that a starting point and dream to the stars and you might stumble upon a single thought going through their greedy minds.

And do remember... The constitution has for the last few decades been treated like toilette paper by politicians and big industry alike... often for the same goal... big industry money.
 

bigdancehawk

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And since most people (on this forum) act on those calls to action, this particular piece of info given in the same style as calls to action may also mislead some into thinking they should just do it (again, without researching).
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Would it were so. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people on this forum pay no attention to calls for action and an even smaller number are likely to contribute to a NM political campaign.
 

bigdancehawk

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There is no first amendment right on ECF or most forums. Read the rules. If you think you have them think again.

People don't seem to understand the first amendment rights of free speech and press. It applies only to GOVERNMENTAL action. It merely prohibits GOVERNMENT from restricting free speech and press. If the GOVERNMENT tried to censor your posts on this forum, then that would indeed be a violation of your first amendment rights. So, in that sense, every poster has first amendment rights on this or any other forum. That is completely unrelated to the right of a forum owner to set rules, censor or delete posts or ban posters.
 

VapingTurtle

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Doesnt take a genius to see that so-called "progressives" and liberals adhere firmly to the latter school of thought.
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And in the very same post:
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If your first loyalty is to politics, race cars, walking sticks, costuming, cooking etc then perhaps this isnt the ideal forum for you?
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You are right, this isn't the appropriate forum for general attacks on liberals, or conservatives, or any other political leaning. So knock it off.

That is not what this thread is about.

It is, was, and should be about whether ECF should target candidates, or limit its target to issues. And Smokey Joe answered that question. The rest is commentary.


edit: Classwife beat me to it. And with more authority, too. ;)
 
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Ok, I read most of this (trying to skip over the grade-school-level political statements), and admittedly without managing to read it all, I will weigh in with some perspectives from political science and from CASAA.

1. As at least one reply noted, about 95% of what matters in a legislative election is the letter after the name of the candidate. Anyone who votes for the person rather than the party (again, for legislative elections) is making a big mistake because most important matters will be decided by the party and the individuals are effectively required to vote as a block for such matters. In cases where you see some members "voting their conscience" against their party, you will notice that it is not occurring on issues that are both major and where the vote can make a difference (i.e., the party leaders allow them to vote their conscience when it does not matter for the outcome).

2. However, there is still that 5% (probably less than that at the national level). That includes things like vaping and THR in general. The parties would probably not enforce whip discipline on such issues if they ever came to a vote, and certainly do not force anyone to be vocal about them.

3. Having just one election -- once, anywhere -- look like it might have turned on the vaping/THR vote would be HUGE. It would send a signal that there are no votes to be won by being anti-THR, but there are votes to be lost, and there will be more in the future. Those not in safe seats (which is only a few at the national level but more at the state level) would think twice about being openly anti-THR if that happened just once.

4. No one should worry about this election mattering for any other reason. While I have not looked at the latest polls for NM, it seems like a safe bet that it will be solidly D no matter which way this one election goes.

5. Greg is all about protecting vaping. Any suggestion otherwise shows that someone knows nothing of his work. That said, I think it is extremely unfortunate that he tied himself to someone like Heartland, and it does hurt his credibility among many. This is not just because of their politics and who pulls their strings, but because of their penchant for junk science. (Needless to say, Greg is well aware that I feel that way.)

6. CASAA is extremely limited (by our corporate status) in terms of what we can do in candidate elections. But it is not quite zero. Nonetheless, we are not thrilled about the idea of getting involved in them (for many of the reasons illustrated here), and may decide to never do so. The organization has no position on this. However, I think it is safe to say that most of the leadership, as people, are cheering for Greg on this.

7. Cluster-analysis type research shows that left-vs-right in American politics basically describes two dimensions of voting patterns, fiscal policy and militancy. It is not the case that these necessarily run together, but it happens that they do quite strongly. Anti-harm-reduction and behavioral freedom does not really fall on either of these spectra, and so is not properly described as a left-right issue. Indeed, those split quite remarkably, notably including opponents of harm reduction for sex and most drugs clustering among the right and opponents of harm reduction for tobacco clustering among the left. The reason they tend to cluster is the "my team vs. your team" tendencies created by the two-party system (which is the inevitable result of the system of government created in the Constitution).

8. It is certainly the case that anti-THR cluster among the left, due to various historical accidents. This means that the more the Rs are in power, the less anti-THR there will be. As noted by many posters, this is hardly the most important implication of which party is in power, but there is no doubt it is an implication.

9. However, because there is no natural reason that anti-THR should be an issue of the left (or anyone), it ought to be possible to change that. That is, it would not be possible to go after a single candidate for being, say, in favor of cutting taxes on the rich and make Rs shy of trying to cut taxes on the rich. That is a (perhaps the) core goal of the party and voting based on that issue is simply voting for or against the party. But defeating someone in an election because of their stand on ecigs could cause the D party to consider that there is a serious downside of being associated with anti-THR.
 
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bigdancehawk

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You guys can dance around this subject and everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Lifetime politicians are all corrupt! They don't truly understand the public and do vitally no research to find out the true answers to challenges.

Until we have the stones to get a referendum on the ballot for term limits the dance will never end. We let this happen, political office was never meant to be a lifetime position and they no longer represent the people.

Oh my mistake corporations are people too..... BS

Hey you guys want to talk about their great pensions?

Crooks and lairs, but what did we expect because most of them are lawyers.

If it weren't for lawyers you wouldn't have any friggin' rights.
 

AndriaD

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People seem to think that the only voting done is every 4 years for the Presidential election. No one really understands the state elections and they power they hold including primaries. There is much more at the local levels that influence the state and federal level governments that it is "crazy". I am far from an expert. The only thing I go on is if one doesn't vote... your opinion doesn't mean crap to me. Pick a side. Make a commitment. If you can't, you are wishy washy. When you pick that side try to get the best person to be voted on. That's the hard part. Most of politics is now "Who is the most likely to win.". Most of the people I vote for the primaries are never put on the general election because they don't lie enough or aren't vague enough. That's fine at least I got my say it what I believe even though the people were afraid of change. A little piece inside of me hoped, Obama would change politics even though I never thought of voting for him. Sadly it got worse.

Ditto, ditto, and ditto... I mainly started voting when I became aware enough of politics to gripe about whatever shenanigans the gov't was up to; figured if I didn't at least go out there and vote for *somebody* then I had very little right to complain about anything.

Voted for "yes we can" the first time around because, yes, I thought he might actually do some good. Sadly, I already knew better, the 2nd time around, but I had to vote *against* that other idiot, whose idea of "austerity" is something like, only having 5 houses instead of 12. Only 10 or 12 horses instead of 3 dozen. Only 4 Rolls-Royces instead of 10. :facepalm: Our monthly take-home is probably what he carries in his pocket, to give the Great Unwashed as tips. :facepalm:

Andria
 

Davey59

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I believe Democrats need to take some lumps on this issue. They are totally selling out on it. They are generally the science-based, populist party ... why they are whiffing so bad on ecigs is beyond me.

I believe they are selling out too, but they are old friends with it.

Next we will hear
Vaping causes global warming! coming to the ignorant masses near you soon.

Oooops, I meant "climate change" have to keep up with the latest buzz words. You know, Tom was found out to be a crook and a liar so he changed his name to Fred so it's Ok dokey now..
 

VapingTurtle

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GREAT post.

I would, however, like to comment on point #5. Although Greg is a most highly respected advocate for vaping, as I stated directly to him, his concurrent advocacy of big tobacco and subterfuge on many issues as a part of Heartland makes me question his motives in his involvement in the NM election battle.
 
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Placebo Effect

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GREAT post.

I would, however, like to comment on point #5. Although Greg is a most highly respected advocate for vaping, as I stated directly to him, his concurrent advocacy of big tobacco and subterfuge on many issues as a part of Heartland makes me question his motives in his involvement in the NM election battle.

Let me also thank Carl for his post.

Please, please, please point out where I have personally advocated on behalf of Big Tobacco (where the vaping community and BT's interests weren't in line, i.e., stopping usage bans or sin taxes) or engaged in subterfuge.

If you want to hate Heartland, that's your right, but please don't resort to attacking me personally.

Edit: You want to know what I could do very easily that would make Big Tobacco (specifically RJR) absolutely adore me and send me all the cash I want? Write an Op Ed / letter to legislators from either the AVA or Heartland that endorses their misguided and anti-competitive e-cig tax bill that is pending in Michigan and will likely be introduced in 2015 in Kentucky, Tennessee, and several other states.

FYI, that's not going to happen, as I have too much integrity to sell out my beliefs on THR to make less money per year than I would if I'd taken a job as a criminal division manager (for significantly less work and zero 3 hour delays in the God forsaken Atlanta Airport).
 
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bigdancehawk

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I fail to see how a ban on eliquid could even be considered constitutionally allowable without also a ban on all forms of tobacco.

Because the courts won't go there. Just because government doesn't ban one product does not mean that it can't ban something else. The government isn't required by the constitution to be consistent in what it elects to ban vs. what it elects not to ban. It is only required to have a "rational basis" for banning whatever it elects to ban. "Rational basis" is a pretty low threshold.
 

bigdancehawk

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I get that, but I don't think its a real worry that bottled liquid will be banned. We have a free market for a reason. Now some companies might want you be able to only buy their products but I don't think that a all out ban is realistic, at least I hope not.



I get it and thanks for your response. I can understand them wanting to protect their customer base and profit but I don't think they have a leg to stand on when it comes to banning bottled liquid.

I could have missed them, but I don't recall ever seeing one of your posts on the News and Campaigning section of this forum. That is where these issues are discussed. It is rare for something like this to find its way to this section or any other section. I would urge you and others who are interested in having a more serious discussion of these issues to hang out in News and Campaigning for a few days.
 

LDS714

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Science denial?
In regards to recent history, I would like to remind you that between roughly the mid 14th century and the mid 19th century, the planet was in the grip of what climatologists refer to as the Little Ice Age (LIA). It is acknowledged that this period included some of the coldest centuries since the end of the Great Ice Age. Worldwide, glaciers grew to their greatest extent in 10,000 years. The annals of European history are replete with well documented episodes of whole villages that had existed for centuries, being overrun by the massively growing glaciers. These glaciers began to recede with the global warming that commenced in the early to mid 19th century and have been receding more or less uniformly to this day. Let me here emphasize an important point, the recession of modern glaciers began at least a full century before the introduction of significant amounts of carbon dioxide to the global atmosphere by the burning of fossil fuels.
Spreading information such as this has been deemed detrimental to those who rely on scare tactics and junk science to come up with increased tax revenue. Please stop before the sheep actually stop thinking they're smarter than everyone else for believing the lies and start looking at the actual facts and the way the data has been made up and manipulated.
 

DC2

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Smart people know that when you go to the negotiating table, you don't go with only demands....you sit down knowing that you must give up something in order to get something.
I think it's fair to say that one side often has to do more "giving up" and does a bit less of the "getting something" part.
In other words, one side is often holding more power than the other for one reason or another.

Assuming you agree that is the case, what would you say governs which side has more power?

Because it seems that compromising is one thing...
But getting that position of power is really the important part...


As for me, I have definitely become more "polarized" as I have gotten older.

I guess that is because it is starting to seem that compromises are becoming more and more about...
Trying to keep from giving up any MORE than has already been given up...

And I want the tide to change, drastically, because I'm not liking the flow at all.
:)
 

VapingTurtle

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Please, please, please point out where I have personally advocated on behalf of Big Tobacco (where the vaping community and BT's interests weren't in line, i.e., stopping usage bans or sin taxes) or engaged in subterfuge.
...

I cannot, and I apologize for my insinuation.

Greg, you would do well for both yourself and your cause to dissociate from Heartland, whose sole function is subterfuge to the benefit of its moneyed sponsorship.
 
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