I used AW IMR batteries in a boombox and killed them.

[KiloWatts]

Yes, the subject line says it all.

I was camping last night. We were listening to a boombox that runs on standard non-rechargeable AA batteries. Those died. We didn't have any extra batteries, so I got the bright idea to try my AW IMR 14500s in it. Sure enough, it worked! In fact, it sounded fantastic. Even better than the AAs. Probably due to the extra voltage.

Well, we ran the box for a couple hours and then turned it off. Now, when I try to charge the 14500s, they get extremely hot. They don't work. After pulling them off the charger, they meter at around 0.6V.

Moral of the story: Don't be dumb like me and use 14500s as a substitute for AA batteries.

Perhaps someone here can give a chemical/scientific explanation as to what happened.

 

[JAY73]

WOW!!! If anything i would have thought they would have fried the boombox and ruined the batts. Humph who would have thunk it...
love peace & chicken grease...

 

[Filibuster]

I'm no battery guru, but from what I understand they don't like going much lower than 3.5 volts. If they are down to 0.6, it sounds like you way over discharged them. I'd get some new batteries! Sorry, not so scientific, hopefully someone will be along soon to explain better

 

[cskent]

Those batteries don't have a protection circuit in them so you ran them down way too far. Once you get lower than about 2.8 volts or so you're asking for trouble. The boombox probably has a circuit to keep the voltage constant from the battery source so that your regular alkaline batteries work ok throughout their lifespan. The IMR's went below their safety threshold. Here's a page that somewhat explains things if you read down far enough, Happy Vaper - Canadian Quality Electronic Cigarette ECig E CIG E-CIG/Personal Vaporizers and DIY Smoke Liquid. There's also a lot of good articles on this website, Battery Information Table of Contents, Basic to Advanced.

 

[WillyB]

Those batteries don't have a protection circuit in them so you ran them down way too far. Once you get lower than about 2.8 volts or so you're asking for trouble... There's also a lot of good articles on this website, Battery Information Table of Contents, Basic to Advanced.

From the BatteryU link you provided.

Li-ion batteries contain a protection circuit that shields the battery against abuse.... the voltage of a battery that is already discharged; the protection circuit will eventually cut off between 2.20 and 2.90V/cell.

Then later:

Some battery chargers and analyzers, including those made by Cadex, feature a wake-up feature or “boost” to reactivate and charge batteries that have fallen asleep.

Do not boot lithium-based batteries back to life that have dwelled below 1.5V/cell for a week or longer.

 

[cskent]

The batteries the OP used were IMR's, not Li-ion's, which typically have no protection circuit.

 

[NickZac]

From the BatteryU link you provided.



Then later:

The lithium batteries with protection circuits are usually LiCo, where as IMRs are LiMn.

And I am impressed that the boombox still works...you were feeding the boombox significantly more power than it was probably designed to handle as I assume it was made to take standard Alkaline batteries. And like others noted, the LiMn are 'safer chemistry' batteries and so they do not contain protection circuits that LiCo cells do. This has the one big issue in that an IMR can be overcharged/overdischarged to a level that makes the battery either useless, dangerous, or both. Consequently, care is required when using them (or any lithium battery for that matter).

 

[WillyB]

The lithium batteries with protection circuits are usually LiCo, where as IMRs are LiMn.

They are all Lithium Ion, lithium-based batteries .

 

[NickZac]

They are all Lithium Ion, lithium-based batteries .

I am a little confused...I thought they differed a good bit?

High-Power Cobalt-Based Lithium-ion Battery - Battery University

Lithium Manganese Oxide-Also Lithium Manganate or lithium-ion-manganese-Most safe; lower capacity than Li-cobalt but high specific power and long life.

Lithium Cobalt Oxide-Also Lithium Cobalate or lithium-ion-cobalt..High capacity; for cell phone laptop, camera

 

[Nomoreash]

I am a little confused...I thought they differed a good bit?

High-Power Cobalt-Based Lithium-ion Battery - Battery University

They do differ in chemistry but both are Lithium Based and when discharged below a certain point can't recover and are toast, which is what happened in your boom box. I'm kinda surprised the higher voltage from the batteries didn't fry the electronics in your boom box first though, you were feeding it over twice the amount of output voltage and close to 3x if the batteries were fresh.

Protected Li-ion have circuitry to keep them from being discharged to low and even getting low enough to trip the batteries circuit is considered to be to low of a discharge for the battery by many. IMRs don't have that protection and depend on the electronics circuitry for low voltage cut of or the user to keep an eye on the voltage so it doesn't get to low. Your boom box basically sucked them dry.

 

[Algernon]

Perhaps someone here can give a chemical/scientific explanation as to what happened.

You put high-performance, 3.7v batteries in place of 1.5v AA batteries which resulted in an over-discharge which completely ruined the batteries.

No idea what made you think that was a good idea.

 

[DaveP]

The cutoff circuitry is in your ecig, not your battery. The boombox ran them until they were completely drained and that's the death knell for Lithium batteries. As most said, it's a wonder that the boom box didn't fry something with more than double voltage applied.

Li-ion batteries are lithium cobalt chemistry. IMR batts are lithium manganese chemistry. Yes, they all use lithium, but in mixes with other chemicals. IMR's don't need protection circuits because they can withstand higher internal temps without blowing up due to thermal runaway.

 

[NickZac]

They do differ in chemistry but both are Lithium Based and when discharged below a certain point can't recover and are toast, which is what happened in your boom box. I'm kinda surprised the higher voltage from the batteries didn't fry the electronics in your boom box first though, you were feeding it over twice the amount of output voltage and close to 3x if the batteries were fresh.

Protected Li-ion have circuitry to keep them from being discharged to low and even getting low enough to trip the batteries circuit is considered to be to low of a discharge for the battery by many. IMRs don't have that protection and depend on the electronics circuitry for low voltage cut of or the user to keep an eye on the voltage so it doesn't get to low. Your boom box basically sucked them dry.

My point was that if they were LiCo ICRs then they would have cut off around mid 2-ish instead of continuing to a complete drain due to the built in circuitry...I may have worded it poorly tho...sorry about that! But even if they were protected and cut off as designed, I would personally discard them given they have been used in a fashion that they were never intended for, and so no one here can say how the batteries may be impacted down the road and if their safety is compromised or not.

 

[o0StatiK]

Usually it has to do with the DC output of the batteries. I'm pretty sure the voltage was too high for the boombox to handle when it came to drainage.

 

[Rocketman]

OP:
you don't stack those 14500s in a PV do you

 

[grabeard]

So now I have a question. I bought 6 18500 Trustfire Li-ion 1800mah batteries that all arrived DOA. I charged all 6 and only 2 worked at all. One of them died after 1 use. They won't even make my Provari flicker. So what's up with these? They all have protection circuits.

They do differ in chemistry but both are Lithium Based and when discharged below a certain point can't recover and are toast, which is what happened in your boom box. I'm kinda surprised the higher voltage from the batteries didn't fry the electronics in your boom box first though, you were feeding it over twice the amount of output voltage and close to 3x if the batteries were fresh.

Protected Li-ion have circuitry to keep them from being discharged to low and even getting low enough to trip the batteries circuit is considered to be to low of a discharge for the battery by many. IMRs don't have that protection and depend on the electronics circuitry for low voltage cut of or the user to keep an eye on the voltage so it doesn't get to low. Your boom box basically sucked them dry.

 

[NickZac]

So now I have a question. I bought 6 18500 Trustfire Li-ion 1800mah batteries that all arrived DOA. I charged all 6 and only 2 worked at all. One of them died after 1 use. They won't even make my Provari flicker. So what's up with these? They all have protection circuits.

The Provari will not function with most protected batteries, especially the Trustfires which aren't of very high quality to begin with. The Trustfires do not supply sufficient amperage to power it more than at its lowest settings. The Provari overdraws power and then the protection circuit on the protected battery cuts off. If they are not charging at all, then they may have had a storage voltage so low that they went into 'sleep' mode. That would mean that either the protection circuit failed to cut off, they sat for a stupidly long time, or there was a manufacturing issue. Or they just may be bad batteries from the start, or have bad protection circuits to begin with, which isn't unheard of.

You need a LiMn cell to power the Provari at all settings, which is called an IMR battery. As of right now, the 2 IMR batteries shown to work flawlessly in the Provari are the AW and Panasonic IMRs. Others may exist but Provari advises the AW IMRs only, but it sounds as if they will soon also advise the Panasonic IMRs, which other makes like Super-T have recently spoke highly of, as have other users.

 

[WillyB]

The Provari will not function with most protected batteries, especially the Trustfires which aren't of very high quality to begin with. The Trustfires do not supply sufficient amperage to power it more than at its lowest settings.

You need a LiMn cell to power the Provari at all settings, which is called an IMR battery. As of right now, the 2 IMR batteries shown to work flawlessly in the Provari are the AW and Panasonic IMRs. Others may exist but Provari advises the AW IMRs only, but it sounds as if they will soon also advise the Panasonic IMRs, which other makes like Super-T have recently spoke highly of, as have other users.

The AW IMR1600 is indeed an IMR/ LiMn2O4. The Panasonic you are calling an IMR is not, it uses a different chemistry.

I also luv the "especially the Trustfires which aren't of very high quality to begin with" and "do not supply sufficient amperage".

Here's a test of the new TF3000 flame.

If you take a look at SuperT's high drain Panasonic 2.5A test it manages about 1800mAh at the 3.3V mark. This TF @ a 3A drain, 20% more, manages about 2100mAh. That's a nice looking 5A test also.

I don't know about a ProVari, but in these two tests it's the Panasonic that can't keep up with the TrustFire which is providing more mAh and at a higher drain to boot.

 

[grabeard]

I have 4 IMR 18650's that "pop" instantly when I put them in my provari. They are all brand new. There is nothing wrong with my provari because the only batteries that will power it are some year old trustfire 3000 mah 18650's.

The Provari will not function with most protected batteries, especially the Trustfires which aren't of very high quality to begin with. The Trustfires do not supply sufficient amperage to power it more than at its lowest settings. The Provari overdraws power and then the protection circuit on the protected battery cuts off. If they are not charging at all, then they may have had a storage voltage so low that they went into 'sleep' mode. That would mean that either the protection circuit failed to cut off, they sat for a stupidly long time, or there was a manufacturing issue. Or they just may be bad batteries from the start, or have bad protection circuits to begin with, which isn't unheard of.

You need a LiMn cell to power the Provari at all settings, which is called an IMR battery. As of right now, the 2 IMR batteries shown to work flawlessly in the Provari are the AW and Panasonic IMRs. Others may exist but Provari advises the AW IMRs only, but it sounds as if they will soon also advise the Panasonic IMRs, which other makes like Super-T have recently spoke highly of, as have other users.

 

[NickZac]

The AW IMR1600 is indeed an IMR/ LiMn2O4. The Panasonic you are calling an IMR is not, it uses a different chemistry.

I also luv the "especially the Trustfires which aren't of very high quality to begin with" and "do not supply sufficient amperage".

Here's a test of the new TF3000 flame.

If you take a look at SuperT's high drain Panasonic 2.5A test it manages about 1800mAh at the 3.3V mark. This TF @ a 3A drain, 20% more, manages about 2100mAh. That's a nice looking 5A test also.

I don't know about a ProVari, but in these two tests it's the Panasonic that can't keep up with the TrustFire which is providing more mAh and at a higher drain to boot.

The Panasonic isn't a LiMn IMR??? I was under the impression it is a 'hybrid cell', but still a LiMn2O4. Does it have cobalt?
Super-T and others refer to it as an "IMR".
CGR18650CH Panasonic 18650 Li-Mn-Li-ion CGR18650CH High Drain 10A Rechargeable IMR Hybrid Battery Cell

Super-T calls it an "IMR"
Super T Manufacturing, Innovative manufacturer of electronic cigarette products.

Like the AW, the Panasonic functions the Provari without issue...I can say that first hand. Although the chart you posted would mean that it should power the Provari. My 2400 mah Trustfires will not at higher voltages. So why is that? Is that related to the 'boost circuitry' that the unit has? According to Provari, Trustfires should not be used with the Provari, and they will not function correctly.

We only recommend using the AW red high drain batteries because these cells have enough output current to handle the demands that the ProVari needs. While the trustfires and others with a button top will work, it's when you get into pulling more power those protected IC batteries will shutdown.

As far as Trustfire quality, I guess that is more an opinion. I've based mine on consumer reviews, so how someone interprets quality is perhaps subjective, and for that I apologize for my previous blanket statement.