I want an answer!

[just-cass]

Well put.

Also, there is a small number of suppliers here that I have heard just enough about -- and/or have the strong sense that the complaints I see are the tip of the iceberg -- that I simply won't try buying from them, or I'm very wary. As soon as I see a vendor respond negatively/poorly to a complaint (or respond as immaturely as the complainer), or delete legitimate complaints, it is a big red flag, IMO.
I believe there's a silent mass of people like me -- those who see this stuff and don't forget it. I'm open to changing my mind, but buyers always have to keep their eyes open.

Cass -- I definitely agree with you on the problems with suppressing negativity. I'm not sure if a Sticky Forum set of posts is the way to go or not. The ground rules sound solid, but I'd be interested to hear what others think. olderthandirt makes a very good case for using the reviews of Suppliers forum -- that's what it is there for.

(Or we need a PV Consumer Protection Agency...vigilante style. Did you shop for our helicopter, matching black jumpsuits, Kevlar corsets and sidearms? )

i am not sure it is the way to go either MP but i am looking at the review section at this moment and already seeing people with legitimate complaints drowned out by others simply saying "well mines fine"...that is not constructive....there are a multidude on the review section if you look at it from that angle

 

[5cardstud]

How else are we the buyers able to know who is safe to buy from if not for these reviews. Plus if people are afraid to post a bad review/experience because of the fear of ridicule from other members then how are we to find out?

 

[GoodDog]

I applaud you for standing up, Cass! Sometimes problems are from the manufacturers but the suppliers defend them because it's their business at stake...the Toyota syndrome? With my complaints I get replys that I should buy from a different supplier. Well what if all the suppliers are defending the manufacturer? Some suppliers don't even tell their customers who the mfgs are for some of their products.

Maybe an "oversight committee" isn't a bad idea. At least the group could gauge how many complaints are coming in about a particular vendor/mfg. Could weekly reports then be posted with the results? Something similar to the Better Business Bureau with an online form we could fill out when we have a complaint???? JAI

 

[just-cass]

I applaud you for standing up, Cass! Sometimes problems are from the manufacturers but the suppliers defend them because it's their business at stake...the Toyota syndrome? With my complaints I get replys that I should buy from a different supplier. Well what if all the suppliers are defending the manufacturer? Some suppliers don't even tell their customers who the mfgs are for some of their products.

Maybe an "oversight committee" isn't a bad idea. At least the group could gauge how many complaints are coming in about a particular vendor/mfg. Could weekly reports then be posted with the results? Something similar to the Better Business Bureau with an online form we could fill out when we have a complaint???? JAI

if it were on the sticky forum gooddog i am the moderator there...i hope people think i am of sound enough mind to oversee anything but i could appoint more moderators if that would be more pleasing to everyone if the post goes ahead?i propose not to delete any questionable threads but move them to be replied to and moved back if they are legitimate...dont want anyone removed without proper analysis of the threads...this is an idea i want to put out there...if there are enough people happy that its a sound idea i will try it...obviously if it becomes a supplier bashing thread(it may seem so obviously but if its truthful and honest and problems are accounted for in a mature manner you gotta call a spade a spade!)it will be removed.

 

[Katmar]

if it were on the sticky forum gooddog i am the moderator there...i hope people think i am of sound enough mind to oversee anything but i could appoint more moderators if that would be more pleasing to everyone if the post goes ahead?i propose not to delete any questionable threads but move them to be replied to and moved back if they are legitimate...dont want anyone removed without proper analysis of the threads...this is an idea i want to put out there...if there are enough people happy that its a sound idea i will try it...obviously if it becomes a supplier bashing thread(it may seem so obviously but if its truthful and honest and problems are accounted for in a mature manner you gotta call a spade a spade!)it will be removed.

I think it can be only good. People deserve to know. It is nauseating how you can get attacked if you are negative about a "great" supplier. I have had my share of it, too. So, I just shut up. Good luck, just-cass.....

 

[kalekona]

hi keyzgirl...im sorry i posted"i want an answer" as i wanted to know how u all felt about it...i guess its a bit intimidating in retrospect.sorry to be misleading...

it was expensive yes.i am not leading this thread up the pathway of berating a supplier so i dont want to comment on the product. i really am not setting out to this end i just want to find out what the general forum thought on this issue or if i was on my own not agreeing with those always saying talk to your supplier when the person clearly had...

my issue was not with shipping....

my issue down to a T is ....why is a faulty product being replaced time and time again with another faulty product instead of one that works?

I have no dog in this fight but since I deal in retail I just wanted to ask you if you gave any thought to the possibility that the vendor sending you faulty parts is themselves being supplied with faulty parts from their vendor?
It happens. If you believe they are aware all their parts are bad and still sending them out that is one thing- but if they believe they are truly trying to solve your problem and are unaware that everything they send is still bad that is another story all together.

 

[Drozd]

(Or we need a PV Consumer Protection Agency...vigilante style. Did you shop for our helicopter, matching black jumpsuits, Kevlar corsets and sidearms? )

my Vote +1 for the kevlar corsets...mmm girls with guns in corsetry..damn that gives me an idea....to the workshop..

 

[Elendil]

I think this thread is fueling a good discussion. I'd like to make a couple of points from a "Mod" perspective.

1. There is a difference between a product that is faulty and a product that just does not fit the needs of the buyer. Just because a buyer does not "like" a product does not mean it is faulty or defective. This seems to be especially true of the HV units. Believe it or not, not everyone understands the difference.

2. Mods will not just "delete" a negative review. I have not seen this happen. The caveat is that the negative review or experience must be based upon factual statements. The threads that are "so and so is a rip-off artist and a liar" are not tolerated. We will not allow potentially libelous statements to be posted with no supporting evidence. Here are some examples of perfectly acceptable criticisms:

"I had a bad experience with this supplier because I ordered on the 1st and they didn't ship until the 18th and provided no explanation"

"I sent 4 emails over 6 days(NOT 15 minutes) and the supplier did not respond"

"I got the unit and the switch only works half of the time. I've contacted the supplier to get a refund and they have refused"

Think about what you post. Yelling or screaming does not add credibility to your complaint. If anything, it detracts from what you are trying to say.

If you post a negative experience, do not be surprised if people that have had a good experience with a supplier posts in their defense. It is the nature of the beast. We will not tolerate anyone being "attacked" for their negative opinion. Unfortunately, there is no way for the limited # of Mods to read every post on ECF. We rely on you, our members, to bring inappropriate behavior to our attention. If you see a post that is "attacking" someone, then please report it and we will address the situation, if needed.

Please note, just simply disagreeing with someone's opinion is NOT an attack. Most attacks are fairly obvious. However, if you have a question, then report the post.


EDIT: I forgot to add, that the Mods very rarely go into the supplier's individual forums and "moderate". The suppliers themselves act as "moderators" and decide what stays or goes. We only go in when there is a reported violation that clearly violates ECF rules. As a matter of fact, Mods usually do not read any of the threads in the supplier forums, unless we are going in there because we are doing business with them personally or want to read about new products coming down the pike.............


Carry on.................

 

[keyzygirl]

So Cass,you have a problem with a supplier ,yet you want to be in charge of the complain about supplier/sticky forum?You decide whats okay and what is to be deleted?What stops you from becoming one of them?I dont think that sounds fair and mature at all.just my opinion though.Maybe I dont understand.Im not the brightest bulb sometimes.

 

[SmilingSlasher]

I think this thread is fueling a good discussion. I'd like to make a couple of points from a "Mod" perspective.

1. There is a difference between a product that is faulty and a product that just does not fit the needs of the buyer. Just because a buyer does not "like" a product does not mean it is faulty or defective. This seems to be especially true of the HV units. Believe it or not, not everyone understands the difference.

2. Mods will not just "delete" a negative review. I have not seen this happen. The caveat is that the negative review or experience must be based upon factual statements. The threads that are "so and so is a rip-off artist and a liar" are not tolerated. We will not allow potentially libelous statements to be posted with no supporting evidence. Here are some examples of perfectly acceptable criticisms:

"I had a bad experience with this supplier because I ordered on the 1st and they didn't ship until the 18th and provided no explanation"

"I sent 4 emails over 6 days(NOT 15 minutes) and the supplier did not respond"

"I got the unit and the switch only works half of the time. I've contacted the supplier to get a refund and they have refused"

Think about what you post. Yelling or screaming does not add credibility to your complaint. If anything, it detracts from what you are trying to say.

If you post a negative experience, do not be surprised if people that have had a good experience with a supplier posts in their defense. It is the nature of the beast. We will not tolerate anyone being "attacked" for their negative opinion. Unfortunately, there is no way for the limited # of Mods to read every post on ECF. We rely on you, our members, to bring inappropriate behavior to our attention. If you see a post that is "attacking" someone, then please report it and we will address the situation, if needed.

Please note, just simply disagreeing with someone's opinion is NOT an attack. Most attacks are fairly obvious. However, if you have a question, then report the post.


Carry on.................

Nicely Said.






(I expected that you would say something to me for my post. It's nice to see that you DO understand and you were not being "threatening" )

 

[just-cass]

I think this thread is fueling a good discussion. I'd like to make a couple of points from a "Mod" perspective.

1. There is a difference between a product that is faulty and a product that just does not fit the needs of the buyer. Just because a buyer does not "like" a product does not mean it is faulty or defective. This seems to be especially true of the HV units. Believe it or not, not everyone understands the difference.

2. Mods will not just "delete" a negative review. I have not seen this happen. The caveat is that the negative review or experience must be based upon factual statements. The threads that are "so and so is a rip-off artist and a liar" are not tolerated. We will not allow potentially libelous statements to be posted with no supporting evidence. Here are some examples of perfectly acceptable criticisms:

"I had a bad experience with this supplier because I ordered on the 1st and they didn't ship until the 18th and provided no explanation"

"I sent 4 emails over 6 days(NOT 15 minutes) and the supplier did not respond"

"I got the unit and the switch only works half of the time. I've contacted the supplier to get a refund and they have refused"

Think about what you post. Yelling or screaming does not add credibility to your complaint. If anything, it detracts from what you are trying to say.

If you post a negative experience, do not be surprised if people that have had a good experience with a supplier posts in their defense. It is the nature of the beast. We will not tolerate anyone being "attacked" for their negative opinion. Unfortunately, there is no way for the limited # of Mods to read every post on ECF. We rely on you, our members, to bring inappropriate behavior to our attention. If you see a post that is "attacking" someone, then please report it and we will address the situation, if needed.

Please note, just simply disagreeing with someone's opinion is NOT an attack. Most attacks are fairly obvious. However, if you have a question, then report the post.


Carry on.................

elendil you make some very good points here...having been pming alot of members on this issue who agree it is a good idea to "try out" a thread at leats in the sticky forum and see where we go from there...i will use elendils example with his permission as a starting point of a way to decide whether you feel you should post or not.

It will be a STRICTLY moderated thread so for those who disagree with this do not post...and for those of you who have very strong disagreement to this pm me and i will think twice on it...in about an hour i will open the thread up having carefully written instructions to be read by all before posting. if you have any further suggestions for rules or leniency of such rules please pm me and i will alter them accordingly to suit everyone here...

i wanna just say too that i dont view it as my forum or my thread...it is merely a springboard for all of the ECF members to utilise and gain knowledge and "avoid the mistakes of older members".i have my own viewpoint on things but i will never criticise another for theirs...this is not a personal agenda although i am having my issues...i just want to help others here in the same boat.

 

[nightowl]

I think a place where people can't get shouted down would be good for all. I've seen 2 posts today saying that 1 thread or another is unnecessary. 1 of them even imploring mods to remove it. And that one was actually a positive post about a company that someone else disagreed with so it would help both suppliers and buyers. So long as the post are polite and detail the individuals experience rather than generalizations and name calling.

 

[just-cass]

So Cass,you have a problem with a supplier ,yet you want to be in charge of the complain about supplier/sticky forum?You decide whats okay and what is to be deleted?What stops you from becoming one of them?I dont think that sounds fair and mature at all.just my opinion though.Maybe I dont understand.Im not the brightest bulb sometimes.

You may disagree with some of the things I've said or you may agree wholeheartedly...yes i do have an issue which is my driving force for this...i am passionate about the sticky forum and passionate about protecting members who have a point to make. I am passionate about new members who come to this site and want honest information in a concise, easy to reach way(as alot get lost in all that goes on here on a daily basis).

There is nothing wrong with being passionate and wanting to help? Even if I had no issue today I may have one tomorrow, another moderator may have no issues and discover one along the way...Am i going to use the thread for my own benefit?no, i am not going to even post on it.

I am hoping that most members who post will be honest and trustworthy....and i am hoping if any deletions need to be made it will be because a member posted a reply by mistake. I am writing up the rules of the thread as we speak and have stipulated that any thread that is questionable will be left there for 24hrs and the member will be pmd to respond, and if their post is relevant it will stay....only replies to posts will be deleted immediately...

If you would like to be part of the "decision on posts" committee id be happy to have one and happy to converse with you daily on any irrelevant posts....as i said this is not about me...merely a springboard for others...

i hope i have answered your question in full. If you have any other questions about me moderating it im happy to hear what you have to say?

and if anyone else is in total disagreement to this thread it can be closed as easily as it can be opened! : o)

edit: just to note if the thread goes ahead it will be transparent for all to see.i will make full explanations of deleted threads.

 

[just-cass]

This thread is for members who have had ongoing issues with a supplier who are unhappy with their products and would like to explain why. This thread is NOT for discussions or hearsay and ONLY for factual clearly presented information.

The following rules apply to this thread, if you do not adhere strictly to the rules your thread will be deleted*,**:

1. You MUST NOT enter into any libelous conversation about the supplier. Please give valid,concise,factual references to any points you make.

2. This is not a discussion thread. You may only post once every 7 days to prevent spam and trolls.(you may of course edit/retract your existing post)

3. You may only post once about a particular issue.

4. You must not reply to other members threads. This is designed to be a thread where members can speak openly and freely about their VALID problems with a supplier. Discussions are held in the general and review forums.**

5. Please do not post hearsay or anything others have told you. Just your own experience.

6. Please do not post because you "dont like" the product/supplier. This thread is for faulty/defective products only and the suppliers who sell them. If you are unsure please read this:

Mods will not just "delete" a negative review. The negative review or experience must be based upon factual statements. The threads that are "so and so is a rip-off artist and a liar" are not tolerated. We will not allow potentially libelous statements to be posted with no supporting evidence. Here are some examples of perfectly acceptable criticisms:

"I had a bad experience with this supplier because I ordered on the 1st and they didn't ship until the 18th and provided no explanation"

"I sent 4 emails over 6 days(NOT 15 minutes) and the supplier did not respond"

"I got the unit and the switch only works half of the time. I've contacted the supplier to get a refund and they have refused"

Think about what you post. Yelling or screaming does not add credibility to your complaint. If anything, it detracts from what you are trying to say.

PLEASE NOTE: This thread is a tool and can be used in a positive or a negative way. Think about the supplier you are about to write about. If you feel there is another way to correspond with them and resolve an issue this is your first port of call, ask youself have you given the supplier every effort to respond and deal with your issue?

*You will be pm'd first to notify you that your post will be deleted and you must respond within 24hrs if you think your thread is still valid.

**ALL posts that are a "response" to anothers thread will be removed without notification.

 

[keyzygirl]

Agreed.I get it now!

 

[just-cass]

thanks for understanding keyzgirl..if at any point you or any other member has an issue with me i am just a pm away and here every day(before you're even out of your beds for those in US haha)...If i make a mistake i am human...and i know you're all here too to make sure i dont thanks guys....thread going live in 5 , 4 , 3 , 2 , ....(ok gimme a minute to set it up!!!) please post proposed changes to rules here and i will alter accordingly

 

[JLeigh]

I think a place where people can't get shouted down would be good for all. I've seen 2 posts today saying that 1 thread or another is unnecessary. 1 of them even imploring mods to remove it. And that one was actually a positive post about a company that someone else disagreed with so it would help both suppliers and buyers. So long as the post are polite and detail the individuals experience rather than generalizations and name calling.

Agreed. It really, really annoys me to no end when someone posts a legitimate complaint and they get jumped on by 47 people. If a supplier can't take the heat of public complaints, then they probably shouldn't have an open forum. And those who jump all over a complaint thread should realize that all they are doing is giving the business they are trying to defend a bad image.

 

[Taryn]

I personally would rather base my buying decisions on a thread that allows for responses. Quieting those who would ask for more information or disagree with the posters position will allow people to vent but are very one sided.

I read the post 420 is referring to and my honest and unbiased (I do not know him or the supplier he was having issues with) leaves me feeling that the supplier horribly failed to provide proper customer service. I would not buy from this supplier. Though emotional this post WAS helpful and clearly showed what can happen when things go wrong. Customer service is always easy when things go right!

What you are proposing is an interesting social experiment that I will enjoy watching, but seems to show very little purpose than allowing people to vent one side of an issue and leaves a big opening for trolls to bash unfairly. I would love to see 420 do a post with his experiences in the review section, where it is out of control of the supplier he has issues with.

 

[just-cass]

The thread is now live...there is a link to the forum in my signature...you can find it in the social group section under the name the "sticky" forum...

i really hope this will be a useful informative truthful thread...please prove me right guys...

im not gonna say....jump in and post on this one...think long and hard and then make a decision whether or not to....

i think the tides are changing already though...this post has shaken things up a bit and im already seeing people being more thoughtful in responses to members problems...hope the change for the better is here to stay : o)

 

[HappyCamper]

You may disagree with some of the things I've said or you may agree wholeheartedly...yes i do have an issue which is my driving force for this...i am passionate about the sticky forum and passionate about protecting members who have a point to make. I am passionate about new members who come to this site and want honest information in a concise, easy to reach way(as alot get lost in all that goes on here on a daily basis).

snipped and bolded by me...

I agree with this. Thank you cass.
As a newbie, I am pretty sure this will be most helpful... us noobs have no idea what we are doing!
Seriously, I found this forum before I ordered my first PV, I cannot be thankful enough for all of the people who help out the newbies!