I'd like a definitive answer once and for all: do amps matter?
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Parallel coils are not dimensionally the same as single wire coils. Close but not quite identical. Coil pitch and total leg length both change when parallel coils are used. Parallel coils (2 wire for example) have 4 legs, this is an increase in dimensions.
I didn't realize we were playing that loose with dimensional equality. I use parallel coils quite often, its a far better way of decreasing ohms and increasing surface area than using larger diameter wire. It is very satisfying to wrap a perfect parallel coil on mesh.
Presuming parallel coils are the route we are speaking of in which to lower ohms and they are wound into similar yet not identical coils, sure (lower ohm will be the outcome). Identical coil dimensions though will always be very similar, that's an unavoidable fact.
In the previous posts here there is a comparison between parallel mounting of two coils and series mounting of two coils, that's not the same as what I was describing at all. The difference is glaringly obvious, mounting methods. Mounted similarly results in a rather different outcome.
Maurice
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I think what they are saying (if they don't mind my rephrasing) is that amperage is not an independent variable. The build affects resistance, thus impacting all the other variables (besides ohms and amps, we have volts...the derived watts...and the watts per cubic mm)
So if you're saying that watt per cubic mm are similar across different builds and give similar results, IDK, since there's things like thermal lag in thicker wire. But if you discard that, maybe.
But who among us can measure all that when building different setups anyway? That's a lot of experimental physics to measure accruately just to come up with builds that are done by hand and tend to vary a lot anyway.
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Sounds like you're a bit confused on what parallel and series resistance is.
Parallel
Series
Both use identical single wire coils but they end in very different resistance values. Take a look at the two Steam Engine examples posted earlier in the thread.
You are confused, I did look at your two steam engine examples, and of course they are spot on (a) parallel coil is different than parallel coil(s), steam engine is not set up to calculate (a) parallel coil.
(A) parallel coil is similar to a coil made from twisted wire, except the wire is not twisted, the wire(s) run parallel to each other.
Parallel mounting of two identical coils is a completely different thing. I know this, you know this, and that's all great.
When watts mm^2 in contact with e-liquid are equivilant between two builds with all other factors being equal (volume in the atty, airflow, juice transport through the wick, wick density, etc.) the vape experience should be fairly equal.
Maurice
So you basically said everything is equal, so they are similar.
Yeah, but then you'd have two identical builds. Otherwise, something else is different. Unless you discount thermal lag and surface area of the coil wire.
So what are the things that aren't identical????????????
(Sorry, confused).
Yes I am confused how parallel coils when wrapped at the same time around the same wick are different then parallel coils wrapped separately. What differences would Steam Engine have to account for?
They are dimensionally the same as series coils, however.
The build does not have to change resistance, you can build two radically different coils of the same resistance.
The best way to describe the difference is this, a drill typically has multiple cuts spiraling down the rod, you'll notice the increased angularity of those cuts most if you take a similarly sized screw which has just one continuous cut spiraling down the length of the screw.
Or if you prefer, imagine the angle of each wrap in an open coil vs a contact coil, they are vastly different. A parallel coil simply fills the gaps with additional coils.
A single wire coil has less angularity than a parallel coil, and the angularity on a parallel coil increases as the number of wire it is comprised of increases. This effect both shortens the length of each wire in the coil and increases the leg mass.
Steam engine does not figure for this increased angularity or the shortened wire lengths. Steam engine assumes when you select parallel that you are speaking about single wire coils mounted in parallel.
The confusion is in terminology that is not very individual.
For example:
You can mount two parallel two wire coils in parallel or in series just as you can mount two single wire coils in parallel or series.
The argument I put forward is that two coils can't have differing resistance if they are dimensionally the same, and this is true. When you measure each coil in a parallel mounted two single wire build in their unmounted state (let's say they measure 1 ohm) and again in their mounted configuration (now 0.5 ohms) your measuring total resistance of a build not each coil, the resistance coils resistance has not changed.
A parallel coil can take up approximately the same space as a single coil, it will however measure out to have lower resistance, how much lower depends on how many wires make up the parallel coil. All the while providing nearly the same contact surface area as a single wire coil. That said, just because the contact surface area is nearly the same does not mean the two coil configurations are dimensionally the same, they are very different.
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Now to the topic of this whole thread, heat alone does not fully define the vape experience, attypops points out thermal lag (how long it takes to bring the coil up to temperature), ramp time can be very different between coils that deliver similar watts mm^2 if the mass of the build differs. Wick the same coil with cotton and then wick with cable to see how the total build mass effects ramp time. The difference is very noticeable and will hugely effect the quantity of power needed to achieve a similar quantity of vapor.
So to be more precise, watts mm^2 if equal will produce a similar vape experience only if the heat produced by those watts is expended equally on heating e-liquid over the duration power is applied to the coil. An increase in mass will increase the time and quantity of power needed to reach and maintain operating temperature. A decrease in mass will hasten the time and lessen the power needed to reach and maintain operating temperature. This is in terms of mAh consumed to bring the build up to temperature and keep it there. Once at operating temperature performance should be similar assuming the same quantity of e-liquid is being heated over a similar surface area, although power expenditure will differ between a build with lots of mass and one with little mass.
So: watts mm^2, and mass of the build, are factors in both how long it takes to achieve vaporization temperature and how much power is required to maintain that temperature.
Amps (so long as the coil build does not cause the batteries Amp limit to be exceeded) do not directly effect the vape experience.
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The whole parallel coil thing was a side conversation
Maurice
Incorrect!
Parallel coil
Single wire coils mounted parallel
Parallel 2 wire coils mounted parallel, sleeper style. (Not a very good build it's a bit late, and I will never fire this or suggest it be replicated)
Maurice
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Two separate coils in parallel (typical dual coils) are what we are talking about, and were clearly illustrated earlier in the thread. Your image is another way of doing it that would have exactly the same resistance as two separate coils in parallel, yet deliver a somewhat different vape, proving yet again that it's build and not amperage/power.
Let's make this simple. In your example in this picture carefully unscrew the black coil from the red one. Don't disturb the pitch or spacing or angularity of each coil. Now you have two separate coils, one black one red with the same coil spacing. They are the same coils except not nested together, what changed to make them different? Absolutely nothing.
We aren't talking about typical dual coils, you and I are talking about how a parallel coil is not dimensionally similar to a single wire coil that fits the same area.
Your argument is flawed, as a build is altered its characteristics change, each change will demand more or less power to be delivered because of an increase or decrease in heating surface area and/or mass heated. Both build and power are interdependent, that's why folks love regulated mods, so they can manage the power aspect as well as they can manage the build.
What matters is that sufficient heat is produced to elevate the e-liquid temperature to its vaporization point in a reasonable span of time.
All builds are limited by the batteries capabilities.
Yes you are correct.
Correct again, they are exactly the same diameter and each coil would be the exact same length, no change.
I agree, let's be simple.
Each space represented by brackets is 9.5mm^3 and the number inside represents watts available to heat that area.
Parallel [ 6w ] , 0.631 w/mm^3
Parallel taken apart to serve two spaces [ 3w ]0.315 w/mm^3 [ 3w ] , 0.315 w/mm^3
See the difference?
Maurice
The amps are completely irrelevant because they aren't doing anything. The resistance is a fixed measurement, and the voltage is pushed from the power source. Those two arrive you to the wattage measurement. The pull of amperage by the load is a byproduct of the other measurements.
An example: I have a glass of water. I raise the glass up 45 degrees to take a drink. The driving forces are gravity pushing the water(i.e. voltage) and the friction of the water on the glass(resistance). The speed the water flows out of the glass(amperage) is nothing more than a function of the driving forces.
An example: I have a glass of water. I raise the glass up 45 degrees to take a drink. The driving forces are gravity pushing the water(i.e. voltage) and the friction of the water on the glass(resistance). The speed the water flows out of the glass(amperage) is nothing more than a function of the driving forces.
The amps are relevant if battery safety is of any concern. The amp limit is the ultimate determining factor in the builds limits. While I can't see pushing the limits of a 30 A battery people are doing just that. So if the question do amps matter is asking if more amp limit would effect the quality of the vape, the answer would be yes because your ability to extend the build beyond a former amp limits boundaries would then exist, assuming similar 3.7V batteries charged to 4.2V of course.
Maurice
Maurice
Dude, you joined the conversation after it was established what we were talking about, you don't get to say what it's about. Not that your example doesn't also prove my point.
You say my argument is flawed then say the exact same thing.
You seem to be missing the point of the thread. The OP asked whether amperage per se affects vape. The answer is no. You might want to re-read the OP and the examples given.
While you are right it's irrelevant, it's not simply because it's a byproduct. You could also consider the question to be whether resistance affects vape per se and the answer is also no.
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Yeah, but you put other qualifiers on it besides ohms. You said same mm^2 (you mean cubic though). If it covers the same surface area, and it's the same ohms it is basically the same coil.
And if it's the same ohms, and at the same watts, it's ALSO by definition at the same amps and same volts.
I did what now? Are you sure you're responding to the right person?
What I'm saying is that you guys are arguing about some theoretical thing that's probably impossible.
If you vary something, you change the other characteristics. All the variables are interdependent.
If you have the same ohms, and same watts, the other values (volts, amps) are the same. If you change something, say amps, the other values change too.
If you vary something, you change the other characteristics. All the variables are interdependent.
If you have the same ohms, and same watts, the other values (volts, amps) are the same. If you change something, say amps, the other values change too.
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