If you don't care enough to read this...

[Douggro]

The FDA-CTP, with a hand full of Employees, Locked down tobacco regulations in 2009 with restrictions applying to 2007 Specifications.
Since then the FDA -CTP has become a Monster with hundreds of employees, State of the art Facilities and an ever growing Money pit of Funding -to Maintain Status Quo

It seems Clear to me the FDA-CTP was created to Protect US tobacco Companies from Being Shut Down and tobacco Products outright Outlawed in the Face of Public Outrage.

The first paragraph seems to reinforce my statement rather than rebut it. The financial end of it comes down even to the FDA and the funding they receive. That's still a small piece of the puzzle, but not insignificant when viewed holistically.

How the FDA implements the TCA is a shifting compromise of public opinion and activism, the financial interests of the parties involved, and the willingness of the government to allow people to aid in their own demise. There is probably someone squirreled away in the back corner of the OMB who runs cost analyses on tobacco use and determines what's an acceptable cost-to-loss ratio.

 

[crxess]

The first paragraph seems to reinforce my statement rather than rebut it. The financial end of it comes down even to the FDA and the funding they receive. That's still a small piece of the puzzle, but not insignificant when viewed holistically.

How the FDA implements the TCA is a shifting compromise of public opinion and activism, the financial interests of the parties involved, and the willingness of the government to allow people to aid in their own demise. There is probably someone squirreled away in the back corner of the OMB who runs cost analyses on tobacco use and determines what's an acceptable cost-to-loss ratio.

We seem to agree on Government Financial concerns and control measures.

My opening comment was to FDA Outright Banning of Tobacco ............or In my opinion FDA put in place to avoid outright Banning - and they have done an Excellent job of doing just that. Increasing Million$ annually to Avoid upsetting BT bu$ine$$ practices.

It also occurs to me they are Pushing Deeming because it would be impossible to justify another Division start up to Regulate Vaping. Vaping has not proven to be a viable concern to the safety of the public, only a Nuisance to Puritans opposed to interference with their way of life.

 

[sparkky1]

Modified Risk Tobacco Products

 

[Lessifer]

It's about time.

Taking all day. But I'm getting through it.

Tapatyped

I was very happy to see the part you quoted, and it's in there a few times. I had all but given up the hope that someone would point out that deeming as tobacco, and all the automatic regulations that come with it, is the source of the problem.

 

[crxess]

Modified Risk Tobacco Products

I think this page is more enlightening
Section 911 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act - Modified Risk Tobacco Products

 

[sparkky1]

I think this page is more enlightening
Section 911 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act - Modified Risk Tobacco Products

I was hoping you would read sec 911, appropriate number for the section ?

 

[crxess]

I was hoping you would read sec 911, appropriate number for the section ?

I've read so many of those Doc,s I'd like to Puck - on the head of the FDA

However, I wish Every Vaper had read them as early as many of us here did. Maybe they would have gotten involved.

 

[Douggro]

We seem to agree on Government Financial concerns and control measures.

Perhaps, though I don't think that we agree on other matters of debate.

My opening comment was to FDA Outright Banning of Tobacco ............or In my opinion FDA put in place to avoid outright Banning - and they have done an Excellent job of doing just that. Increasing Million$ annually to Avoid upsetting BT bu$ine$$ practices.

We will have to disagree here. IMO, if left to their own devices, the FDA would happily do away with tobacco were it not for the pressures placed on them politically not to do so. In the end, it comes down to the money in play.

It also occurs to me they are Pushing Deeming because it would be impossible to justify another Division start up to Regulate Vaping. Vaping has not proven to be a viable concern to the safety of the public, only a Nuisance to Puritans opposed to interference with their way of life.

Perhaps that cold be part of the equation. Hyperbole-laden rhetoric, sketchy "studies", and the perception that any product which is analogous to smoking and contains nicotine is dangerous is what put e-cigs/vaping products into the Deeming proposal. It was convenient to add them in since the proposal also covers other real tobacco products.

"Yes, yes, yes, I do see that there is a real dilemma here. In that, while it has been government policy to regard policy as a responsibility of Ministers and administration as a responsibility of Officials, the questions of administrative policy can cause confusion between the policy of administration and the administration of policy, especially when responsibility for the administration of the policy of administration conflicts, or overlaps with, responsibility for the policy of the administration of policy." - Sir Humphrey Appleby, Undersecretary of Administrative Affairs, BBC series "Yes, Minister"

 

[WharfRat1976]

Let me get this right...

You refuse to get your opinion other than from a brief sound bite of someone else's opinion.

Yet later, you'll undoubtedly refuse to accept a well known reality... even go as far as to question it based on the watered down sound bites and flawed logic you're willing to put forth less than minimal effort to obtain?

I don't get it. I know you're educated... in science of all things.

Yet you'll refuse to collect the data. Rather rely on interpretation of data from an unqualified source.

Tapatyped

Don't eat the Troll Bait[emoji13]

 

[WharfRat1976]

Near the top of the article:

A vibrant and competitive market with on the order of 100,000 products made and sold by thousands of businesses would be replaced by a hand-picked oligopoly of ten or twenty products from two or three manufacturers (probably the major tobacco companies).

 

[DeAnna2112]

So the norm on this forum is becoming that if you don't agree with someone else's opinion then we resort to the mentality of high schoolers and start throwing around name calling such as troll, antz and so on. This type of behavior reflects badly on us as a community especially when new vapers and non vapers come here and read our discussions.

Don't we want others to stick around and read and learn more about vaping and all the issues that surround it instead of being turned off and walking away because of the level of intolerance among ourselves and immaturity displayed towards each other?

 

[DavidOck]

Near the top of the article:

A vibrant and competitive market with on the order of 100,000 products made and sold by thousands of businesses would be replaced by a hand-picked oligopoly of ten or twenty products from two or three manufacturers (probably the major tobacco companies).

And does anyone see that as just probably? Or trust them to keep the juice unadulterated?

 

[seahawkin]

Super long read, but worth it. Thanks for posting.

 

[WharfRat1976]

We seem to agree on Government Financial concerns and control measures.

My opening comment was to FDA Outright Banning of Tobacco ............or In my opinion FDA put in place to avoid outright Banning - and they have done an Excellent job of doing just that. Increasing Million$ annually to Avoid upsetting BT bu$ine$$ practices.

It also occurs to me they are Pushing Deeming because it would be impossible to justify another Division start up to Regulate Vaping. Vaping has not proven to be a viable concern to the safety of the public, only a Nuisance to Puritans opposed to interference with their way of life.

The article addresses the notion that the FDA has not really thought any of this through. It contemplates over and over that enforcement would be impossible and that the creation of black markets will begin immediately becoming unstoppable.

 

[DC2]

There is probably someone squirreled away in the back corner of the OMB who runs cost analyses on tobacco use and determines what's an acceptable cost-to-loss ratio.

There is probably a whole staff of folks squirreled away at the FDA...
Trying to determine how the FDA will be perceived if they move forward with this sham...

And the only way to tip those scales is to become more informed as vapers...
And then educate everyone that surrounds us, especially those that care about us...

Or maybe science.
If the mainstream media would care to report the science in a fair and balanced way.

Oh wait, that train left the station a long time ago, and got derailed.
Many millions of sheep died in the process.

 

[Douggro]

So the norm on this forum is becoming that if you don't agree with someone else's opinion then we resort to the mentality of high schoolers and start throwing around name calling such as troll, antz and so on. This type of behavior reflects badly on us as a community especially when new vapers and non vapers come here and read our discussions.

Don't we want others to stick around and read and learn more about vaping and all the issues that surround it instead of being turned off and walking away because of the level of intolerance among ourselves and immaturity displayed towards each other?

Any time you pull in a large cross-section of society and begin discussing topics, there is going to be dissent and differing opinions. Certain things, like the First Amendment, protect our rights to voice opinions - as obnoxious and inflaming as they may be - which often devolves into name-calling and other pedantic activities. Intolerance is nothing new in the human condition, nor is it going away any time soon.

As I like to say, if you're going to play in the Big Kids Sandbox, be prepared to get sand in your shorts.

 

[Douggro]

The article addresses the notion that the FDA has not really thought any of this through. It contemplates over and over that enforcement would be impossible and that the creation of black markets will begin immediately becoming unstoppable.

I'm sure this notion was raised by @beckdg earlier. Objectively, it is a very reasonable conclusion. The deeming inclusion is a reactive policy on the behalf of the pressures coming from sources outside the FDA offices.

 

[DC2]

The deeming inclusion is a reactive policy on the behalf of the pressures coming from sources outside the FDA offices.

Without question, and well documented through the course of vaping history.

You can start with the alphabet "non-profits" urging the FDA to take action way back when.
And then you had the FDA react to that by trying to declare them drug delivery devices.

This led to customs seizures, and the Sottera vs the FDA case.
Judge Leon shut down the FDA and forced them to change to their next tactic.

Thus the deeming regulations.

Then we have the "Band Of Senators" that write letter after letter.
Urging the FDA to save our precious children.

Now the manufactured science, and the mainstream media that propagates it.

Never mind the behind-the-scenes influence of Big Pharma, the WHO, and Big Tobacco.

And let's not forget the State Attorneys General and their letters.
Can't let all that MSA money go up in vapor.

 

[beckdg]

So the norm on this forum is becoming that if you don't agree with someone else's opinion then we resort to the mentality of high schoolers and start throwing around name calling such as troll, antz and so on. This type of behavior reflects badly on us as a community especially when new vapers and non vapers come here and read our discussions.

Don't we want others to stick around and read and learn more about vaping and all the issues that surround it instead of being turned off and walking away because of the level of intolerance among ourselves and immaturity displayed towards each other?

So...

By masking it as taking the high road...

What exactly do you expect to accomplish by calling a portion of the user base rude and immature?

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

Without question, and well documented through the course of vaping history.

You can start with the alphabet "non-profits" urging the FDA to take action way back when.
And then you had the FDA react to that by trying to declare them drug delivery devices.

This led to customs seizures, and the Sottera vs the FDA case.
Judge Leon shut down the FDA and forced them to change to their next tactic.

Thus the deeming regulations.

Then we have the "Band Of Senators" that write letter after letter.
Urging the FDA to save our precious children.

Now the manufactured science, and the mainstream media that propagates it.

Never mind the behind-the-scenes influence of Big Pharma, the WHO, and Big Tobacco.

And let's not forget the State Attorneys General and their letters.
Can't let all that MSA money go up in vapor.

Ur forgetting nearly every alphabet govt agency that signed the letter to the pres.

Tapatyped