IMPORTANT - email from FDA to a supplier.

[Vapor Pete]

I am not sure if any of you have thought about it or not, but I have an idea. Why don't we start The Church Of True Fog. Part of our worship can be the partaking of the vapor stick. The FDA has no regulation on freedom of religion. If they try to stop us we will have a very strong leg to stand on. Seems to me in these economic times the only people making money are politicians, bankers, c.e.o.s', and churches. I would gladly start the Church Of Truth In Fog if anyone would be interested.

Sorry Mex, my church has already been started and burried in past threads. I'll try to put up the thread below.
My best,
-VP


Ladies and gentleman, I've got it:

While vaping the other night, i was visited by JUICE, an Angel from heaven. She told me that it was my God given directive to start the NICOTINE VAPORIZER RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT.
My name is Vapor Pete, and I am your Vapor Prophet here on earth. As a religious movement, the Government cannot stop us from vaping.
Join now, heres how:

1. send me 1 penny every 5 years for tithing and securing your spot on the movements offical roster.
2. The Vapor Gods requires that we vape to reach Them.
3. NiVaPor... the God we pray to when using nicotine vapor requires that we MUST use e-cigs, e-cigars or e-pipes at least ONCE a day but up to 100 times, to reach Him and receive Holy Spiritual Fullfilment.
4. NonViPor... the God who is reached when using no nicotine vapor, requires us to vape, using ANY FLAVOR vapor, to reach him. You must have started with nicotine vapor, and prayed to NiVaPor prior to reaching NonViPor, or He wont answere any of your prayers.

The Angel "Juice" has told me we must meet at least every 200 years in a place of our choosing, for communion and community VAPOR PRAYER, where we all vape as one to either one of the Gods.

Seriously though, Im only kidding....sort of lol! but read this:

http://www.breakingnewsenglish.com/0...0223-tea-e.doc
Last edited by Vapor Pete; 04-02-2009 at 11:12 AM.

 

[paulhampson]

nicotine addiction is a disease or a condition?

 

[Mex]

Looks like we already have some Preachers that need to be ordained into the Church of Truth In Fog. I see a religious revival on the horizon! Can I get a Amen?

 

[Mex]

Vapor Pete. You said at the end you are "only kidding". I am not. I am dead serious. This is one of the best ways to beat any ban.

 

[Smokingfreely]

There has been a lot of talk on various threads about filing for an NDA on e-liquid. The FDA does regulate NRT products, and therefore does regulate Niccotine, doesn't it? Not that this would be a lot better, but I don't see why the right formulation couldn't file for an ANDA (this would still take a few years.) My reason for making this argument comes from flavor additives supplied by pharmacies. If it's legal to add these flavorings without the need for the NDA, then shouldn't it be legal to add flavorings and food additives to approved niccotine? Therefore, since the FDA has approved liquid inhalant niccotine (ie the niccotine puffer, no idea what the brand name is or orange book listing number,) it seems that one would simply have to file for an ANDA for their niccotine.

This is still not a small task, but much quicker and cheaper than an NDA, and the first company to do it would get first generic exclusivity and would have the law on their side to run off all competitors and establish a monopoly on e-liquid (sort of, whoever holds the NDA for e-puffers would have the right to make an e-liquid too, but would they... I doubt it.)

I don't neccessarily want this to happen, as total lack of competition would make the price of liquid go up, but it seems like there's a good opportunity here, unless I am missing something.

 

[Vapor Pete]

Vapor Pete. You said at the end you are "only kidding". I am not. I am dead serious. This is one of the best ways to beat any ban.

Hey Mex,
No, I said "Im only kidding.... sort of". But in a nut shell, because one cannot just start a religion in order to "save" or protect a cherrished pass-time or habit. Think of the regulatory hurdles to do this. Otherwise, pot would have been legalized decades ago under the religious protection act. We would all be so stoned, fighting a ban on vaping wouldnt matter right now lol! So thats why I said just kidding. You cant start a religion around something that is, at this point, basically illegal. But you are free to start the "Tobacco Cigarette Church of America"...
My best,
-VP

 

[Savantster]

"TOP PRIORITY: GET PRODUCTION OUT OF CHINA AND INTO THE U.S."

Funny how we need to make this "American" if we want it, but all of the big mega-corps are moving jobs out of America hand over fist, and that's "good for us", too.

I tend to agree that we would benefit from getting things here, but this is all belying the real issue.

Americans are still highly puritanical in their thinking.

We allow cigs because they have been around for a very long time. People are "comfortable" with "drug use" when it comes from cigs, and we're comfortable with the highly addictive drug caffeine being all over the place, yet now the FDA wants to make some kind of bone about "nicotine"? .. why? .. because for decades upon decades, nicotine was only available in "dirty modes" of delivery. Now that we have a CLEAN and SAFE delivery method (say, like coffee for caffeine), they are going to take the [unsustainable] position of "drugs are bad in general" stance.

Of course, unless it's a drug the Big Pharma guys want to put on TV and make profits from, like .......

 

[Savantster]

Let's all just face it. We're screwed. No way around it. Like TB said...to make these legitimate it will take a LONG time. I understand everyone wanting to have a voice and make a difference.... but in all practicality, this doesn't look good and we're just going to have to let this take its time passing through the system. Logic doesn't apply. Freedom doesn't apply. What matters is that nicotine is a drug and the regulating bodies are going to do what regulating bodies do. They're going to regulate. I think we all, including myself, need to pull our head out of the clouds and just accept the inevitable. What we should all be talking about is what our plans are when our access to e-juice and supplies are indefinitely cut off. Because I, for one, have not really thought about that very much at all....

Welbutrin (sp)

If you want to quit the disgusting habit of tobacco, if you need to break your nicotine addiction, I recommend trying Welbutrin to break the habit. Somewhere between day 7 and 12 you just don't _want_ a cig, you don't even notice you didn't have one. Then you just need to break the psychological addiction of having that cig at certain times (in the car, after a meal, etc etc).

The problem is we're going after "drugs" in general while also putting drug after drug on TV and saying "nevermind that you might have chronic nose bleeds, you won't be sneezing from dander any more!".

Our society has become psychotic, I think.

 

[Savantster]

"Well a customer said it best to me,"Why would you go through all that? There are no 'Safety Caps on Nicorette gum!? No safety Caps on the Patch!? I mean, I can walk into a Tobacco store and buy a Crack Pipe and a water ....!? So why is this such a problem?""

the patch and gum can't kill a kid in a quick second if they get a hold of them, and they taste nasty so they kid isn't likely to eat 10 patches or 20 pieces of gum.. but if they take one swig of that juice, they die in minutes from nicotine poisoning.

Your basic lack of understanding of the valid concerns of these regulators is why these products will take so long to become allowed to be sold. People looking to make money rarely stop to think of anything else, and that's why the public charges the government with protecting them.

the problem is that the government likes to overstep their bounds, and the ignorant masses tend to let them. Once they realize how far the government has gone, it's very difficult to put the brakes on and back up that beast.

And just because someone is vaping doesn't mean they understand that liquid nicotine is a deadly poison that needs careful handling. Never forget that the average person is pretty stupid.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Our society has become psychotic, I think.

And pharmaceutical dependent. I think it was 1997 when there was a big discussion about allowing pharms to be advertised on tv. The argument that won was people should be more informed about the drugs available so they can encourage their doctors to treat them with these drugs.

Here is an interesting take on the whole issue: Direct-To-Consumer Advertising - for or against? - European Public Health Alliance

 

[Savantster]

Alright, do we have any lawyers here? It's time to bring a suit against the FDA and appeal the decision that it is a "drug delivery device." Damages: The cost of treating lung cancer, emphysema, COPD, etc.

But in all seriousness, I cannot see the FDA managing to defend this position in the court of law.

The problem is, it IS a "drug delivery device"..

so are cigs.. which is why they now get to finally regulate them.

the question has to be posed, and an answer forced, "why is doing a drug inherently bad?"

You can point out all the commercials on TV that "want to make life better", even if they have serious negative side effects. E-cigs "make life better" via chemicals, and there are no substantial negative side effects (other than addiction, but you're also hard pressed to show "addiction is bad" in general, that's a subjective stance, not an objective stance).

In the end, that puritanical streak in our leadership, that vanity and petty drive for "image", is what will keep hurting sane responsible citizens. The desire to protect the ignorant masses from themselves is what destroys the fabric of rights for competent humans.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

The problem is, it IS a "drug delivery device"..

so are cigs.. which is why they now get to finally regulate them.

the question has to be posed, and an answer forced, "why is doing a drug inherently bad?"

You can point out all the commercials on TV that "want to make life better", even if they have serious negative side effects. E-cigs "make life better" via chemicals, and there are no substantial negative side effects (other than addiction, but you're also hard pressed to show "addiction is bad" in general, that's a subjective stance, not an objective stance).

In the end, that puritanical streak in our leadership, that vanity and petty drive for "image", is what will keep hurting sane responsible citizens. The desire to protect the ignorant masses from themselves is what destroys the fabric of rights for competent humans.

While I agree with a majority of your opinion, I do need to clarify fact here. The tobacco cigarette is not a drug delivery device, by law or definition. (in reality, that may be different) Will it be if S.579 gets passed and signed into law by the Pres? Yes. This all began in 1994 when the then acting director of the FDA made a pretty good case as to why it should be. Statement on Nicotine-Containing Cigarettes by David A. Kessler, M.D. It is really an interesting read.

As of today, the FDA does not have control over nicotine. In a letter response to Steph2323, even Tobacco Free Kids acknowledges that the FDA doesn't have control over nicotine and TFK feels they should.

 

[Savantster]

"Now the FDA gets to decide that nicotine addiction is a disease? Huh? Does that mean that I have a disease? I think I have another disease too. I am addicted to coffee. Crazy."


not crazy, true.

In fact, that's the only leg they have to stand on is that they classify addiction as disease. Alcoholism is a disease because it causes damage to you and your family in ways that are not natural by the introduction of some foreign thing. The biggest problem is that nicotine (by itself) does NOT cause any problems. And no one is fired up over caffeine addiction, or chocolate addiction, or adrenaline addictions, etc etc.

Humans have been using chemicals to enhance their life experiences ever since chemicals have been around (hint, that means we _always_ have, because _everything_ has a chemical context, and most of those "interact" with our biology).

The problem we have is, no one wants to be SANE or RATIONAL when discussing these issues.

 

[Savantster]

"I also feel that the personal vaporizer manufacturers in China will not feel a great loss of our business. They have no desire to try and tangle with the FDA here in the US, that's why their responses have been weak at best. The factories will just be refitted and they'll still be sending whatever else they end up manufacturing, here in the US. The ones that don't refit will still have their colossal market in China itself."


correct.. China is 1.3 billion people, we're 0.3 billion.. and China is the worlds largest tobacco market, so switching people to e-cigs there means locking in a much bigger market for the time being.

The problem comes back to the idea that Americans aren't supposed to "do drugs" [unless big-pharma/tobacco/alcohol profits].

Eventually our leaders will wake up, but that might take a few years and a few more bumps out of Congress.

 

[Savantster]

While I agree with a majority of your opinion, I do need to clarify fact here. The tobacco cigarette is not a drug delivery device, by law or definition. (in reality, that may be different) Will it be if S.579 gets passed and signed into law by the Pres? Yes. This all began in 1994 when the then acting director of the FDA made a pretty good case as to why it should be. Statement on Nicotine-Containing Cigarettes by David A. Kessler, M.D. It is really an interesting read.

As of today, the FDA does not have control over nicotine. In a letter response to Steph2323, even Tobacco Free Kids acknowledges that the FDA doesn't have control over nicotine and TFK feels they should.

But that's exactly the point, for all these years our legislators have been pretending that tobacco _wasn't_ about nicotine delivery, but that is patently absurd.

Additionally, the _only_ reason to "regulate tobacco" is because of the deadly side effects caused by breathing in burnt carbon based plants.. If they want to "clean the air" for bystanders, and try to mitigate the level of poisons put in people's bodies, that's one thing..

which brings us to point 2. Nicotine is a "safe drug" when used in "proper doses" such as the amounts received through "smoking" or "vaporizing". It _has_ been tested, it _is_ a well known drug, and it is _not_ dangerous. Addictive, yes (and the New Zealand study points out the MAOI properties of tobacco smoke that might reinforce the addiciton that might not exist in vaped stuff), but if it's non-destructive and non-dangerous (in proper doses), then the government has no business telling people they can't use it. They can "regulate" it to make sure it "stays safe", but prohibition makes no sense.

We're seeing what happens when you have a society that is incapable of rational thought or being able to apply reason and logic to their lives. We're seeing what a consumer-based society is _supposed_ to be like, letting the folks taking in the money decide what makes sense to their business model, not what makes sense from a citizen standpoint.

The land of the Free has turned into the land of the Sheep. It makes me sad, espeically at times like this when I can live a better life in a harmless manner but the ruling elite don't like that idea, so I will be forced to get my dopamine fix from other venues.. perhaps like by BUYING STUFF I don't need, but getting something new triggers much of the same brain-chemistry-responses as getting something shiny and new... hence, more money for them, more debt for me, and my fix helps destroy my life.. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Savantster]

By the way, from what I understand, 3 Congress members use e-cigs today. We need to find out who they are, and make them explain to Congress how they feed their addiction without destroying their bodies now, and how it makes no sense to victimize citizens to put more money in the pockets of big tobacco so they can ruin more lives for profit.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

But that's exactly the point, for all these years our legislators have been pretending that tobacco _wasn't_ about nicotine delivery, but that is patently absurd.

Additionally, the _only_ reason to "regulate tobacco" is because of the deadly side effects caused by breathing in burnt carbon based plants.. If they want to "clean the air" for bystanders, and try to mitigate the level of poisons put in people's bodies, that's one thing..

which brings us to point 2. Nicotine is a "safe drug" when used in "proper doses" such as the amounts received through "smoking" or "vaporizing". It _has_ been tested, it _is_ a well known drug, and it is _not_ dangerous. Addictive, yes (and the New Zealand study points out the MAOI properties of tobacco smoke that might reinforce the addiciton that might not exist in vaped stuff), but if it's non-destructive and non-dangerous (in proper doses), then the government has no business telling people they can't use it. They can "regulate" it to make sure it "stays safe", but prohibition makes no sense.

We're seeing what happens when you have a society that is incapable of rational thought or being able to apply reason and logic to their lives. We're seeing what a consumer-based society is _supposed_ to be like, letting the folks taking in the money decide what makes sense to their business model, not what makes sense from a citizen standpoint.

The land of the Free has turned into the land of the Sheep. It makes me sad, espeically at times like this when I can live a better life in a harmless manner but the ruling elite don't like that idea, so I will be forced to get my dopamine fix from other venues.. perhaps like by BUYING STUFF I don't need, but getting something new triggers much of the same brain-chemistry-responses as getting something shiny and new... hence, more money for them, more debt for me, and my fix helps destroy my life.. Yeah, that makes sense.

I am right there with you my friend. I see all aspects of your disgust for the current situation in the US and I argue the same points relentlessly through many of my posts.

But historically, tobacco wasn't used for delivery of nicotine. It was used for incense in religious applications. Where it became a real issue is the manipulation of the nicotine to make it stronger than what the original plant offers. Many who switch to natural tobacco products and roll their own, find that to be an easy step towards reducing nicotine intake, and thus decreasing their need for nicotine. I have had many "roll your owns" purchase the low nicotine solutions and come back the next time around saying they don't need the nicotine at all as the low was still too high. It is very intriguing.

But with your idea here, is it possible that the cigarette is a drug delivery device when it comes to the additives? Many, including myself, are reporting that the first few weeks off of tobacco find a withdraw to something other than nicotine. And since those withdraw symptoms have subsided for me, I have noticed that I can smoke on no-nicotine almost all day long, needing only to smoke a cig or two worth of low nic in the evening via my ecig.

This leads me to believe that nicotine is not the drug that should be of concern, but the additives. Which also leads me to believe that if manufacturers are using organic methods of withdrawing the nicotine from the plant ie: boiling, vs the pharmaceutical way by using chemical extraction, then the nicotine in our ecigs IS a tobacco product and therefor does not fall into the pharmaceutical realm at all. Sure, ecig users would have to get used to less nicotine, but I am confident that there is a market for people who are looking for a more "organic" and "cleaner" way to take their nicotine.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

By the way, from what I understand, 3 Congress members use e-cigs today. We need to find out who they are, and make them explain to Congress how they feed their addiction without destroying their bodies now, and how it makes no sense to victimize citizens to put more money in the pockets of big tobacco so they can ruin more lives for profit.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...essionals-politicians-who-support-vaping.html

 

[Chevron07]

Lacey,

I'm really beginning to think that someone, somewhere has figured out that e-cigs are going to prove that it's not the nicotine, but the other additives that we have be addicted to. During the first week of smoking e-cigs, I had "nic-fit" rages and considered upping the nic in my e-cig. Instead, I just smoked it more and shortly I could feel that I was getting too much nic. I then cut it with VG, giving me the fullness and fun of smoking, with even less nic. After getting sick last night, and putting down my e-cig, I really don't feel like I need to pick it back up. I really don't think that I was addicted to the nic.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Lacey,

I'm really beginning to think that someone, somewhere has figured out that e-cigs are going to prove that it's not the nicotine, but the other additives that we have be addicted to. During the first week of smoking e-cigs, I had "nic-fit" rages and considered upping the nic in my e-cig. Instead, I just smoked it more and shortly I could feel that I was getting too much nic. I then cut it with VG, giving me the fullness and fun of smoking, with even less nic. After getting sick last night, and putting down my e-cig, I really don't feel like I need to pick it back up. I really don't think that I was addicted to the nic.

It's crazy the stuff you start to learn about your so called "addiction" when you strip out all of the other stuff. I remember when I was full tilt tobacco cigs, it didn't matter what I was sick with or how sick I was, I would suffer through a cigarette because I had too. I recently got sick (thanks to a bug brought home from daycare) and after three days in bed realized that I hadn't had the urge to smoke the entire time. I was shocked. There are days where I smoke my ecig all day long because I want to and days where I barely touch it at all. I was routine with the tobacco.