IMR vs. Protected Li-ion

[Cool_Breeze]

I'm considering a Gripper e-cig devcie produced by Smoktech. I have no experience with IRM batteries wich seem to be what is used in the Gripper. I'm comfortable with protected Li-ion batteries and appreciate that they shut down with overcurrent or a short. I do some replacement wick and coil building. I tend not to vape low Ohm sources, but occassionally have accidents with DIY coils.

I know that generally IMR types may be a little shorter than equivalent protected Li-Ions. Length questions 'might' be resolved by flat-top or non-raised button top Li-Ions. I'm not certain, but is typical current liming on protected Li-Ions around 2.5 Amps?

While I understand the high current drain IRMs are capable of, I don't understand their performance under high current circumstances.

When shorted, to IRMs heat up? Is there anyway they shut themselves down?

Cost of batteries and a charging source are factors in my possible decision to move to a Gripper. As well, Ampacity of IMRs is generally lower than that of protected Li-Ions.

If the length and connections are okay, can protected Li-Ions be used in place of IRMs in most devices? Are there concerns other than over-current?

Is short, if one isn't expecting to use low resistance and high current, are there other compelling reasons to go with IRM/High Drain?

 

[DarkAynjil]

I'm considering a Gripper e-cig devcie produced by Smoktech. I have no experience with IRM batteries wich seem to be what is used in the Gripper. I'm comfortable with protected Li-ion batteries and appreciate that they shut down with overcurrent or a short. I do some replacement wick and coil building. I tend not to vape low Ohm sources, but occassionally have accidents with DIY coils.

I know that generally IMR types may be a little shorter than equivalent protected Li-Ions. Length questions 'might' be resolved by flat-top or non-raised button top Li-Ions. I'm not certain, but is typical current liming on protected Li-Ions around 2.5 Amps?

While I understand the high current drain IRMs are capable of, I don't understand their performance under high current circumstances.

When shorted, to IRMs heat up? Is there anyway they shut themselves down?

Cost of batteries and a charging source are factors in my possible decision to move to a Gripper. As well, Ampacity of IMRs is generally lower than that of protected Li-Ions.

If the length and connections are okay, can protected Li-Ions be used in place of IRMs in most devices? Are there concerns other than over-current?

Is short, if one isn't expecting to use low resistance and high current, are there other compelling reasons to go with IRM/High Drain?

Yes, you can generally use protected batteries where you use IMR's, IF you aren't in need of a higher C rating. You generally can't go the other way safely (or at least I wouldn't advise the use of non-protected in a mod designed with protected in mind). IMR's will heat up if shorted - but they use a different chemistry to make them safer. IMR's are LiMN if I remember correctly, and they are less volatile, but are still capable of harm. Using protected batteries in the gripper should present no issues, other than hitting the current limit of the protected battery's protection circuit. Another option may be a drop-in protection circuit, or fuse. If you look about on the internet, you can find them for mods and flashlights.

 

[hificat101]

When shorted, to IRMs heat up? Is there anyway they shut themselves down?

Certainly not coming from a scientist (but maybe one will chime in), but I think because IMR's are designed to be able to supply much more current, they won't be inclined to go runaway thermal. For that reason, they are considered "safe chemistry", but probably "safer chemistry" would be a more accurate phrase.

Having said that, I think you'll find that most regulators have some form of protection in them, and will shut down in an over current type situation. So with using an IMR in this case you'll get some protection from the battery's chemistry, then additional protection built into the regulator.

I think you'll be fine, but I'd double check on any protection in the mod, but I bet it's there. Smoktech is starting to get pretty good with this. I just discovered that they are using collapsable hot springs in the Bolt.

 

[txtumbleweed]

The protected Lion batteries are too long for the Gripper. They are setup to use IMR's with them and I use IMR's in all of my VV devices. They hold a charge much longer than the higher mah Lion batteries. The Panasonic CGR18650 batteries are supposedly the best but the AW 18650's work good too.

 

[L7D4N]

The IMR's are a safe chemistry, so in the event of thermal runaway, they will vent *without flame*. It will get SUPER hot really quick, but the end result will not cause any physical harm other than possible burns, but with a general Li-On battery, thermal runaway would occur and flames would be generated by the failure. I refuse to use Li-On's for that specific fact, as you can never know when or if it will happen, even as unlikely as it is.

I don't preach this or expect others to do the same, it's just a personal preference, and I only use a Pro-Vari, so there isn't a need for an Li-On battery in my house. I also purchased a Pila IBC and Xtar WP2 chargers so I could make sure the batteries are charged in a proper manner without overcharging them or be flaky, as this is the number one cause for battery issues. Just make sure you follow safe habits and know what you're dealing with, and you'll likely never encounter an issue.

 

[DarkAynjil]

Just make sure you follow safe habits and know what you're dealing with,

Amen. That applies to everything. There is a lot to read about Lion batteries. Take the time to read it all - you'll be glad you did.

 

[Switched]

Certainly not coming from a scientist (but maybe one will chime in), but I think because IMR's are designed to be able to supply much more current, they won't be inclined to go runaway thermal. For that reason, they are considered "safe chemistry", but probably "safer chemistry" would be a more accurate phrase.

Having said that, I think you'll find that most regulators have some form of protection in them, and will shut down in an over current type situation. So with using an IMR in this case you'll get some protection from the battery's chemistry, then additional protection built into the regulator.

I think you'll be fine, but I'd double check on any protection in the mod, but I bet it's there. Smoktech is starting to get pretty good with this. I just discovered that they are using collapsable hot springs in the Bolt.

... see post #5

 

[Switched]

The IMR's are a safe chemistry, so in the event of thermal runaway, they will vent *without flame*. It will get SUPER hot really quick, but the end result will not cause any physical harm other than possible burns, but with a general Li-On battery, thermal runaway would occur and flames would be generated by the failure. I refuse to use Li-On's for that specific fact, as you can never know when or if it will happen, even as unlikely as it is.

I don't preach this or expect others to do the same, it's just a personal preference, and I only use a Pro-Vari, so there isn't a need for an Li-On battery in my house. I also purchased a Pila IBC and Xtar WP2 chargers so I could make sure the batteries are charged in a proper manner without overcharging them or be flaky, as this is the number one cause for battery issues. Just make sure you follow safe habits and know what you're dealing with, and you'll likely never encounter an issue.

Absolutely!

 

[WillyB]

The protected Lion batteries are too long for the Gripper. They are setup to use IMR's with them and I use IMR's in all of my VV devices. They hold a charge much longer than the higher mah Lion batteries. The Panasonic CGR18650 batteries are supposedly the best but the AW 18650's work good too.

Interesting, for my larger cell, series VV devices I always go for the mAh, I have no need for high drain mAh challenged cells.

It is also interesting that "use IMR's in all of my VV devices" yet follow that with a a recommendation for "the Panasonic CGR18650" which is an not an IMR/LiMn2O4 cell, nor does Panasonic ever refer to it as such.

 

[ninfreak]

i will always use imrs.... i tried my hardest to blow up an aw imr and couldn't do it, i have had protected batteries blow up on me, personally i dont find protecteds have enough umph to handle what we vapers throw at them with our devices. you cant trust a 1 cent strip to save you from battery meltdown, ill play safe with a safer chemistry. people are ignorant to the fact that protecteds are so dangerous. they think that having them protected means they are safer than something that is unprotected. they are protected because they need to be!

on the note of the panasonic cell, it is icr which is along the same lines as an imr just slightly different chemistry. panasonic are great cells. aw imr's are relabled panasonics, so panasonic makes both of these chemistries

 

[L7D4N]

^ that's it, and Panasonic does state these to be an "IMR Hybrid" regarding it's chemistry. I've used those Panasonics and they do run good, but take a much longer time to charge compared to the AW IMR's, even on the Pila IBC.

I have 14 AW IMR's, and I use them for 6 months in which I throw them away. I don't mind going through $30 worth of batteries every 6 months.

 

[txtumbleweed]

Interesting, for my larger cell, series VV devices I always go for the mAh, I have no need for high drain mAh challenged cells.

It is also interesting that "use IMR's in all of my VV devices" yet follow that with a a recommendation for "the Panasonic CGR18650" which is an not an IMR/LiMn2O4 cell, nor does Panasonic ever refer to it as such.

I'm not a battery expert but these people are and they say they are IMR.

Callies Kustoms 3100mAh 18650 Panasonic Batteries

2250 IMR 1mm Top
These are the new standard in which to judge all other IMR's! What are the advantages of IMR vs standard lithium ion batteries?
Longer Life over typical Lithium Ion batteries
Higher output. Up to 10 amps continuous discharge
IMR is considered a safer technology, less chance of explosions
Much less voltage sag so your lights stay bright longer
Many people have been asking if these really are IMR batteries. This is a direct quote from a Panasonic Press Release :
"Panasonic has introduced a new high rate lithium ion cell CGR18650CH. The cell’s Nickel Manganese-based cathode material delivers higher discharge rates and better energy density and voltage than comparative cells. CGR18650CH cells are suitable for multi-cell applications."
So the short answer is Yes they are IMR.

I do know the Panasonic 18650 batteries hold a charge longer than my higher mah rated protected lion batteries.

 

[Rader2146]

on the note of the panasonic cell, it is icr which is along the same lines as an imr just slightly different chemistry. panasonic are great cells. aw imr's are relabled panasonics, so panasonic makes both of these chemistries

ICR and IMR not "along the same lines" and the CGR18650CH is certainly not ICR. The typical protected (not safe chemistry) Li-Ion batteries are ICR. Please check your info.

Where are you getting your info for the source of AW's raw cells?

 

[DaveP]

If you must use Li-ion do it in a single battery configuration, not in a stacked config. Most of the Li-ions that turned into rockets and bombs were in stacked battery devices. Even flashlights that use multiple li-ion cells experience this with catastrophic results caused by stacked batteries with varying charge levels. One battery reverse discharges into the other when you press the button and complete the circuit. This results in high heat and catastrophic failure.

IMR high drain batteries have high C-ratings and can take short excursions into the 10 amp or higher range without failure. Li-ion can't stand the heat generated by sudden high current and they self destruct in thermal meltdown with venting of flames. If the vent isn't sufficient on an Li-ion battery, explosion follows in a matter of seconds.

 

[ninfreak]

i apologize for the icr...just woke up lol....as far as the relabled panasonic's for aw cells its a very well known fact on ecf and flashlight forums. aw brand is a one man army in china. he takes the best cells(battery makers sell different grades of the same cells) and relables them. he uses panasonic and sanyo cells depending on the cell size and chemistry.

 

[Rader2146]

Many people have been asking if these really are IMR batteries. This is a direct quote from a Panasonic Press Release.:
"Panasonic.has introduced a new high rate lithium ion cell CGR18650CH. The cell’s Nickel Manganese-based cathode material delivers higher discharge rates and better energy density and voltage than comparative cells. CGR18650CH cells are suitable for multi-cell applications."
So the short answer is Yes they are IMR.

Callie's is wrong, and it's pretty sad that the still have this on their site when the information is readily available. The IMR's that we are all used to, aka Lithium Manganese Oxide, aka LiMn2O4, contains no Nickel. With the CGR18650 sporting a Nickel-Manganese cathode, the better fit (but still an assumption since Panasonic isnt big on stating the chemistry) is Lithium Nickle Manganese Cobalt Oxide; LiNiMnCoO2.

 

[ninfreak]

even rtd vapor lists those cells as imr..... just looked. http://rtdvapor.com/Panasonic-IMR-CGR18650CH-Button-Top-CGR18650CH-BT.htm

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Are there different considerations in battery chargers for the IMR and Protected Li-Ions? I notice that Orbatronics offered charger profides up to 1 amp per channel.

 

[L7D4N]

As far as I know it's safe for 1 amp charging, but the new Xtar SP2 has a 2 amp charging ability. I do not know if this high of a charge is recommended or not, I've never gone above 1 amp.

Also, Orbtronic lists the following for the CGR18650CH:

CGR18650CH Panasonic 18650 Li-Mn-Li-ion CGR18650CH High Drain 10A Rechargeable IMR Hybrid Battery Cell

======================
About New Panasonic PSS technology- Solid Solution technology:

How to achieve an ideal balance between high capacity, and high safety in one Lithium based 18650 battery cell?

Panasonic has developed a new Solid Solution technology by mixing the high capacity characteristics of the Li-ion chemistry [cobalt based] cells, and high safety of the LiMn2O4 [manganese based] Lithium based batteries.
======================

I agree with Rader that these are not IMR's by chemistry, but that's why I referred to them as a "Hybrid". I'm not a chemist, so I cannot comment on the validity of safety regarding these, but I've never had one go thermal.

Based on my research and experience, I'll stick with my good ol' AW IMR's, because I know their charging habits, when they're about to go out, and what a new battery and 6 month old battery charges and holds voltage at. It's all personal preference and experience.

 

[WillyB]

^ that's it, and Panasonic does state these to be an "IMR Hybrid" regarding it's chemistry.

They do? Post a link.

I'm not a battery expert but these people are and they say they are IMR.

Callies Kustoms 3100mAh 18650 Panasonic Batteries

And neither is the T-Shirt printer you linked to who saw the word manganese in a press release and declared it a LiMn2O4 cell, which it is not.