information for "what are we missing" thread

[tceight]

greetings all. A long time lurker, and vaping for a couple months. I've been following the 'what are we missing' , 'beta carbolines' and 'WTA' associated threads.

Followers of these threads may be interested in these articles I found, and if so could you repost in the appropriate thread as I am unable to as a new poster.

Science News, may 7 1994
".....When pressing the lever delivered only saltwater, the animals gave themselves about 8 doses a day. But when it delivered 8 micrograms of acetaldehyde per kilogram of body weight ([mu]g/kg) -- the rat equivalent of what a person could receive from smoking one cigarette -- the animals upped their daily intake to some 240 doses. When offered nicotine, the rats gave themselves 90 doses a day. However, when given the choice of a cigarette's worth of nicotine and acetaldehyde, the animals self-administered 400 doses a day."


and this one from Neuropsychopharmacol, 2007

"This review evaluates the presumed contribution of acetaldehyde to tobacco smoke addiction. In rodents, acetaldehyde induces reinforcing effects, and acts in concert with nicotine. Harman and salsolinol, condensation products of acetaldehyde and biogenic amines, may be responsible for the observed reinforcing effect of acetaldehyde. Harman and salsolinol inhibit monoamine oxidase (MAO), and some MAO-inhibitors are known to increase nicotine self-administration and maintain behavioural sensitization to nicotine. Harman is formed in cigarette smoke, and blood harman levels appear to be 2-10 times higher compared to non-smokers. Since harman readily passes the blood-brain barrier and has sufficient MAO-inhibiting potency, it may contribute to the lower MAO-activity observed in the brain of smokers. In contrast, the minor amounts of salsolinol that can be formed in vivo most likely do not contribute to tobacco addiction. Thus, acetaldehyde may increase the addictive potential of tobacco products via the formation of acetaldehyde-biogenic amine adducts in cigarette smoke and/or in vivo, but further research is necessary to substantiate this hypothesis."

This is probably nothing 'new' to the experts out there, but does tend to support the harman alkaloid approach by those experimenting with Passion Flower extracts.
Thanks to all those researching and sharing their results in these areas!

 

[BCB]

OK. I'm a big fan of those threads, too. I posted your info on:

So are we getting it or are we not

and

Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

 

[mustymom]

This looks interesting - can you translate or explain it in a simpler way?

 

[BCB]

If you go to either of those threads you will discover TONS of information. Basically, some PV users found they were still missing "something" and vaping wasn't enough to keep them feeling good or as one person put it "comfortable in my own skin." It is believed that there are other chemicals we've come to need besides nicotine and we still want them and we won't feel good until we get them. Most of these people (including me) have gone to using snus in addition to vaping to get that "something extra." Those two threads are long discussions about this topic. My personal favorite is "So are we getting it or are we not." It's REALLY LONG and worth every single page--like reading a mystery novel. Try it, you'll like it!

 

[BCB]

Oh yeah, I just remembered you can get a good synopsis on blogs by DVap on this forum. He's the chemist who worked so hard to find answers to questions others posed. Read those, too.

 

[CtryBoy]

Simply put cigarette smoke is a chemical soup that no one knows exactly how it all interacts to do its' thing. Apparently this researcher believes acetaldehyde may somehow 'tamper' with our self dosing of nicotine. Maybe thats why I used to smoke almost two packs a day, constantly wanted a cig, but can vape here and there without having to be constantly puffing.

 

[mustymom]

Thank You - I'll head over there now

 

[tceight]

the saline drip was a control, the assumption that rats curiosity would entice them to self dose for no other reason.
= 8 self doses a day,
nicotine by itself caused them to self dose 10 times as often as the control, indicating a pleasurable response and/or addictive potential.
acetaldehyde by itself caused them to self dose almost 3 times as often as the nicotine. (240 times)

acetaldehyde + nicotine = 400 hits/ day, over 4 times the amount as just plain nicotine.

Some research, implies that the acetaldehyde is made into Harman when burned in the cigarette, (which the E-cig would not do), so some people have added the Harman Alkoloids to their E-Juice.
But this study injected the acetaldehyde directly into the bloodstream, indicating that maybe adding it to E-juice would be effective.

I'm one of those people that cannot be satisfied by nicotine alone. I find I vape like mad, sometimes the desire fades, but most often I just get driven to the point where I just need an analogue, and within a half a cigarette, I feel 'fine' again. Vaping has not cut back my tobacco consumption significantly, and higher nic does nothing but make me feel even MORE jittery, and needing a cigarette. I'm generally better off with very low, or NO nic E-juice.

another quote in the article is confirming of this synergistic effect of acetaldehyde with alcohol, again no 'burning' is required.

"Any substance that delivers low levels of acetaldehyde -- below about 30 or 40 [mu]g/kg of body weight -- should be reinforcing," his data indicate. Indeed, as the first product formed during the body's breakdown of alcohol, acetaldehyde may be responsible for the addictive properties leading to alcoholism, he says. DeNoble's report even raises the possibility that acetaldehyde may explain the often observed link between smoking and drinking, adds Herbert D. Kleber of the Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University. "People who try to give up smoking find it hardest when they're drinking," he notes.


This research was done by Phillip Morriss, and they did not want what they found released.
"We were permitted to give talks [outside the company] on nicotine but never on acetaldehyde," DeNoble testified.
By late 1983, he learned that even the lab's reports on nicotine's potential addictiveness proved a threat because of litigation facing Philip Morris. In April -- without warning -- supervisors gave DeNoble a day to shut down his program. Told that the company had no work for researchers of their stature, DeNoble's team were encouraged to find work elsewhere, which they did.
But confidentiality agreements that the researchers signed forbade them from ever discussing their studies at the Richmond lab. The subcommittee got a waiver from Philip Morris so that DeNoble and a coworker could testify."


the rest of the article is here
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n19_v145/ai_15264835/
I can't post the "link" so copy and paste.



What all this means? To me, it means identify the safety and efficacy of adding acetylaldehyde or it's metabolites to e-juice, to see if it satisfies my cravings.

 

[tceight]

OK. I'm a big fan of those threads, too. I posted your info on:

So are we getting it or are we not

and

Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

Thanks BCB!
I misread the posting rules, and assumed wrongly that I could not post. I just can't start NEW threads anywhere else but here.

 

[tceight]

Thanks BCB!
I misread the posting rules, and assumed wrongly that I could not post. I just can't start NEW threads anywhere else but here.

I was wrong about being right. lol
I still can't post.

 

[CaptJay]

well keep replying here - Im a big fan of the subforums in smokeless and nicotine, mainly for the info they have and the help they give people so not many more posts to go before you can copy paste this 'down there' lol

 

[tceight]

From Wiki,

"Acetaldehyde is a probable carcinogen in humans.... "There is sufficient evidence for the carcinogenicity of acetaldehyde (the major metabolite of ethanol) in experimental animals."

but does not indicate at what dosages those effects were observed.

and as
"Acetaldehyde occurs naturally in coffee, bread, and ripe fruit, and is produced by plants as part of their normal metabolism"

and it is also produced by oxidation of ethanol, consumed copiously by so many around the world for centuries, the risks must be taken context.

The simplest adjunct might be to try cutting the juice with 200 proof alcohol, which I have not tried. Has anyone else noticed any difference in satiation from ethanol in their juice?

 

[tceight]

thanks for the words of encouragement CaptJay. I've learned a lot from these forums, and wish to reciprocate with what little I can.