(input wanted)I'm doing some research on the safety of inhaling the ingredients we vape

[Adrian Ludvik]

Hoping to make this a sticky. I think this information is valuable. While it's all available somewhere, I've yet to find it all in one place.

I've edited this post because the OP and the title which I cannot change have caused some misunderstanding of what I want this to be about, and that is my fault.


I recently began DIYing ejuice. I use google like a ..... on nickel night and have stumbled across some interesting discussions. I first became intrigued when I found a post about capellas vanilla custard and diacetyl. I hadn't thought about the ingredients in flavorings before and it got me interested in the ingredients in flavorings.

I'm interested in listing ingredients and what they do. I'm personally interested in know effects of over exposure through inhalation. (Not the tiny percentages from vaping.) I started this for me and decided to share in hopes of getting some input.


Here's a link to what I have so far. I will update my info whenever I come across something new. If you share some wisdom please include the URL where you found your information. Also note that I don't know whether the places I found my info are credible sources. I just included the links so people know where I got my information. I am not putting much effort into citing my sources because I did enough of that in college and it's not particularly important.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zVqKbEmn0bAT8w-XdxrN5qA42nwxJusC3RQIICpNJYU/edit?usp=sharing

Later on I'm going to try to dig up what some common ingredients are used in fruit flavors, baked flavors(I'm unsure of which ones use butter flavorings), soda flavors, and whatever else I can think of.

 

[dannyv45]

Most of the links you provide in the document are dead and what does work are based on far larger quantities then what we actually vape. Your research is very basic and I would recommend doing some research right here on the forum. There are some ligit concerns and they have already been discussed right here on the forum in great detail. I applaud your effort but it's all just to basic with no substantiation. If you search right here on the forum using key works such as health risks or key words on the chemicals that concern you there will be pages and pages of threads on these topics.

 

[Adrian Ludvik]

Most of the links you provide in the link are dead and what does work are based on far larger quantities then what we actually vape. You research is flawed and very basic and I would recommend doing some research righ here on the forum. There are some ligit concerns and they have already been discussed right here on the forum in great detail. I applaude your effort but it's all very basic with no substantiation.

1. The links work just fine. Make sure to remove the ().
2. Yes, I stated as you say "based on far larger quantities then what we actually vape." It's in the very first tiny paragraph which puts me under the impression you didn't get past the first 3 words which compile a small portion of the list.
3. I'm always doing research on the forum "right here." There are many posts, most seem pages apart. I'm just trying to put it all together in one place. As I wrote earlier, I'm not interested in discussions of should or shouldn't it be vaped.
4. I mean no offense, but please read more than the title.
5. Please elaborate how my research is flawed and let me know how I can make it better?

 

[williebb123]

scientific research only or its all just hear say , im sure youve read the thousands of pages of hear say on ecf so if your research is more of that then i think we already have plenty but feel free to add to the public landfill it just makes it harder to find the real evidence

 

[Adrian Ludvik]

scientific research only or its all just hear say , im sure youve read the thousands of pages of hear say on ecf so if your research is more of that then i think we already have plenty but feel free to add to the public landfill it just makes it harder to find the real evidence

1. Scientific research will take years. IE, lung and heart disease from smoking.
2. Effects of inhalation of something, even though at a much larger quantity than vaping, is scientific research.
3. What is some real evidence?

 

[dannyv45]

If your going to try to make a point as to why vaping is so unhealthy and want your points to be taken seriously you need to put the time and effort into the claims your making. It just don't fly with me that you are making statements and don't want to put the time into it to substantuate these claims. As you yourself said:

" I don't know whether the places I found my info are credible sources. I just included the links so people know where I got my information. I am not putting much effort into citing my sources because I did enough of that in college."

How am I supposed to perk up and take interest if you yourself have no interest in researching this? It just seems to me you’re not really serious about this whole issue. This issue is not new to me or most of the folks here and I've read far more threads with far more substantial substance then what you've provided. You would have known this if you did the research and may have thought twice about this before half heartedly jumping on the band wagon. You as a new member have to realize that this forum is dedicated to the safe art of DYI and to post right out of the gate on such a topic sounds very detracted. There are many that would like to take away our freedoms of vaping and you would know this by looking at all the legislation out there to ban vaping. So to here threads like this from someone so new make us very suspicious as to your real intentions.

 

[Adrian Ludvik]

If your going to try to make a point as to why vaping is so unhealthy and want your points to be taken seriously you need to put the time and effort into the claims your making. It just don't fly with me that you are making statements and don't want to put the time into it to substantuate these claims. As you yourself said:

" I don't know whether the places I found my info are credible sources. I just included the links so people know where I got my information. I am not putting much effort into citing my sources because I did enough of that in college."

How am I supposed to perk up and take interest if you yourself have no interest in researching this? It just seems to me you’re not really serious about this whole issue. This issue is not new to me or most of the folks here and I've read far more threads with far more substantial substance then what you've provided. You would have known this if you did the research and may have thought twice about this before half heartedly jumping on the band wagon. You as a new member have to realize that this forum is dedicated to the safe art of DYI and to post right out of the gate on such a topic sounds very detracted. There are many that would like to take away our freedoms of vaping and you would know this by looking at all the legislation out there to ban vaping. So to here threads like this from someone so new make us very suspicious as to your real intentions.

I'm trying to make a point that vaping is unhealthy? Nope. Also, I wouldn't have used the sources I did if I didn't think they were credible myself. I found the same information in multiple places.

Don't assume a lack of knowledge because I'm new to the forums. I just don't post often and didn't decide to actually sign up to be a member until recently, but I've been reading them for a while now.

I'm just trying to find out what I'm vaping, what it's used for, and what potential it has to harm me. Maybe I thought about making my own tart and sour(or one of the ingredients) from powder/crystal form, or wanted to use menthol crystals and didn't want to mishandle them and wanted to know what would happen if I did. It seems to me that your mindset is that I'm trying to tell people vaping is bad and that is incorrect, I'm rolling the dice with everyone else. It's just information being put together. Not positive or negative information, it's just what you make of it.

If you think listing the effects of inhalation of what you may or may not be vaping but in larger doses is me saying don't use any of it, I just assume everyone is smart enough to realize that we've vaping very small quantities.

At this point I honestly believe you're trolling me 100%. What could my "real intentions" be? Was I hired by the fda to discredit the vape world? Am I trying to scare vapers away as a toke away on my sub ohm mech setup with my DIY juice that contains most of the things I mentioned so it could all be mine maybe?

 

[Exchaner]

I have a dilemma how to evaluate whether vaping is safe or not. Some people claim it is safe unless proven otherwise. Others claim that it is UNSAFE unless proven otherwise. How do you reconcile the two? You can't. Not until actual research is given a chance to do its job. In the meantime when someone tells me that vaping is safe, it goes into one ear, and out the other. When it comes to my health, I take the conservative approach and try to vape less with fewer ingredients. Sometimes I do even flavorless. It's not that bad .... That is my way of dealing with this dilemma.

 

[rowdyplace]

Adrian -

Listen to Danny45.

That man has probably "spilt" more juice than you have ever seen. He is one of the learned ones on this forum and bears listening to! Read his blogs, follow his posts think about what he says and you just may learn a thing or two.

Just my 2¢

 

[DetraMental]

Yeah, Danny's been at this for a spell now and I'm sure you may meet Hoosier who has been at it for a while too. I've been DIY'ing for about 16 months and don't know half of what I need to. If you have something to share by all means do, as simply as possible. Perhaps it's your tone, affect, it's lacking the normal enthusiasm we see with people who take an interest one way or another with vaping. You seem to show neither.

 

[Adrian Ludvik]

Yeah, Danny's been at this for a spell now and I'm sure you may meet Hoosier who has been at it for a while too. I've been DIY'ing for about 16 months and don't know half of what I need to. If you have something to share by all means do, as simply as possible. Perhaps it's your tone, affect, it's lacking the normal enthusiasm we see with people who take an interest one way or another with vaping. You seen to show neither.

I'm very enthusiastic about vaping. I'm constantly trying new things and trying to improve my vape. I doubt many of the things I find are going to stop me from doing something. I'm not limiting what I vape unless I find out for sure vaping something is proven to be bad at the quantities we inhale while vaping.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I'm just trying to satisfy a curiosity. I'm not just trying to find bad things, I'm just trying to find out what the stuff is made of and more. I mean no offense to Danny but I think he missed the point or maybe I misrepresented the topic with my title.

If there's seems to be any lack of enthusiasm, it's towards my research because in reality it's not that important but it is interesting. If any groundbreaking discoveries are made, I'm sure I'll read about it on the forums here. It's just a little research.

 

[crxess]

I for one appreciate good research.
Unfortunately, most of what I keep finding is hearsay and misinterpretation of what someone else has worked on.
This has nothing to do with this Ops post, but:

Partial text from documents clipped and used to Drive home a negative point in exact opposition of the Actual documentation.

Product warnings for Industrial Use taken to the extreme to place fear in the hearts and minds of the common consumer.

Arbitrary Law suits won on sympathy of a Jury rather than documented fact of fault.
i.e. 10yrs standing in front of a microwave 2x per day while making popcorn - Diacetyl - which has never been proven to be a hazardd outside of the manufacturing environment.

Not saying anything is or is not safe. Simply saying FACTS on any concern are what I am interested in, not speculation or assumption.

 

[Exchaner]

scientific research only or its all just hear say , im sure youve read the thousands of pages of hear say on ecf so if your research is more of that then i think we already have plenty but feel free to add to the public landfill it just makes it harder to find the real evidence

I agree but it would be great if we had a single source that identifies which flavors might be unsafe. Those are usually flavors on which at least some research has been attempted. As to the rest, we can take the info with a grain of salt ... IMHO we should be encouraging the OP.

 

[dannyv45]

If there's seems to be any lack of enthusiasm, it's towards my research because in reality it's not that important but it is interesting. If any groundbreaking discoveries are made, I'm sure I'll read about it on the forums here. It's just a little research.

I actually appreciate your enthusiasm as far as wanting to know everything about what is put into your body and the subject is important. We all want to know what's safe and what's not. I just think your jumping the gun wanting to list what's wrong with vaping and wanting to have it as a sticky (As you hope might happen). You need to research and have a more sold foundation on the subject. Right now I don't think you have enough credible information so your coming off as an alarmist and I really don't think that was your intention. At this stage to start an open dialouge maybe a comparison as to whats good vs whats bad about vaping would be received better then what's just bad about vaping. Now that's a topic I think everyone can participate in.

 

[Racehorse]

If any groundbreaking discoveries are made

You use the word "research" but I think what you mean you are doing is aggregating all the information you've found and putting it in one place?

Because to me, "research" means you worked with a group of scientists, with degrees and experience doing proper testing, it was done in a lab, and there are outcomes that are provable and repeatable, and then the study is peer-reviewed.

No offense to anyone here, like Danny or Hoosier, they are great mixers and DIYers, but I don't think either holds a biochemistry degree and neither have been the lead researchers on any peer reviewed studies.

Dr. Farsalino's did a recent study, probably based on his suspicions that certain ingredients in eliquid present risks, and the risks are avoidable. Right now, that is the only study I know of that quantified the amounts of diacetyl/diketones in eliquid, though the eliquid was from different mystery vendors, but apparently covered enough territory to be valid. Over 70% contained that stuff.

So, based on that, I don't vape it.

If it is enough for a pro-vaping doctor and researcher to call something a possible "inhalation risk"---- then that is good enough for me.

 

[Adrian Ludvik]

I actually appreciate your enthusiasm as far as wanting to know everything about what is put into your body and the subject is important. We all want to know what's safe and what's not. I just think your jumping the gun wanting to list what's wrong with vaping and wanting to have it as a sticky (As you hope might happen). You need to research and have a more sold foundation on the subject. Right now I don't think you have enough credible information so your coming off as an alarmest and I really don't think that was your intention.

I can see how I it may come off as me being an alarmist. I'm not not trying to list what's wrong with vaping, I just think the one part everyone seems to focus one is somewhat relevant.

Tart and sour is one example. From what I understand it it uses 3 ingredients and some water. I was considering trying using these ingredients individually in their pure form to test their effects on flavor. Looking back at it now, I should have added their purpose to my drive file. It's a work in progress. I am a bit scatter-minded at times and jump from ingredient to ingredient as I add more without adding all of the information I should. Hell, sometimes I think sentences and forget to type them, and sometimes I'll accidentally repeat.

I've said it before, but I assume it's common knowledge that any knowledge of the effects of anything we're inhaling pertains to much larger amounts that what we're vaping. One way I look at it is that the body has it's methods of letting us know something is hurting us most of the time. Cigarettes for example made me wake up congested, would hurt my throat, and all kinds of stuff. The worst I've gotten from vaping is that I think I'm currently experiencing vapors tongue.

Danny, I'm going to go over my drive doc probably tomorrow afternoon. I encourage you to take another look the day after, and I hope I can change your mind about my intentions. After reading over it again, I see how you could get the wrong impression. It's a work in progress.

Also, while you seem to be paying attention to this thread and seem to have a good deal of experience in DIY juices I could use a little advice. I've done a bit of searching on what people use to make their fruit flavors pop and was wondering what you recommend. I can't tell if maybe I need to add some sort of salt flavor, or sweetener, or something sour.

 

[Boletus]

Adrain, what you wish to accomplish is a worthwhile goal, but the fact is that there is just not enough real (verifiable) information out there. For example, did you know that some e-juice contains the chemical that is responsible for more deaths by inhalation than any other single substance? That's right, you may be exposing your lungs to WATER! OK, that is a pretty silly example, but that is exactly the kind of hype that is out there clouding the water and making real research by laymen such as you and I extremely difficult. And nothing about that statement is false, either.

And so, yeah, most of us are pretty burned out by that sort of nonsense and just want to vape in peace. With that said, there are certainly chemicals that are more harmful than others, and there is probably more info about that topic in this forum than anywhere else, since most of us do care to one degree or another, but tracking it all down and sorting the wheat from the chaff and then trying to determine the relative danger of each substance will require hundreds, if not thousands of hours of tedious, probably depressing effort. So if you don't get scores of volunteers lined up to work on your project, do not take it personally, or assume that others have an agenda beyond finding the best vape and helping people new to this get the essential information.

I submit a quote for your consideration:
"It is the dose that makes the poison."
Paracelsus

Once you can post here that you have dedicated 1,432 hours to finding all of the potentially harmful substances used in e-juice and have quantified the risks for varying amounts of each substance, alone and in combinations, we will all applaud you, and then start picking apart your work. Or maybe you will be content to just vape on and wait to see what is left to worry about after the FDA has put its hamfisted hands firmly into our lives. The list will probably be a lot shorter then, and may be limited to chewing on a stick instead of smoking.

 

[dannyv45]

I can see how I it may come off as me being an alarmist. I'm not not trying to list what's wrong with vaping, I just think the one part everyone seems to focus one is somewhat relevant.

Tart and sour is one example. From what I understand it it uses 3 ingredients and some water. I was considering trying using these ingredients individually in their pure form to test their effects on flavor. Looking back at it now, I should have added their purpose to my drive file. It's a work in progress. I am a bit scatter-minded at times and jump from ingredient to ingredient as I add more without adding all of the information I should. Hell, sometimes I think sentences and forget to type them, and sometimes I'll accidentally repeat.

I've said it before, but I assume it's common knowledge that any knowledge of the effects of anything we're inhaling pertains to much larger amounts that what we're vaping. One way I look at it is that the body has it's methods of letting us know something is hurting us most of the time. Cigarettes for example made me wake up congested, would hurt my throat, and all kinds of stuff. The worst I've gotten from vaping is that I think I'm currently experiencing vapors tongue.

Danny, I'm going to go over my drive doc probably tomorrow afternoon. I encourage you to take another look the day after, and I hope I can change your mind about my intentions. After reading over it again, I see how you could get the wrong impression. It's a work in progress.

Also, while you seem to be paying attention to this thread and seem to have a good deal of experience in DIY juices I could use a little advice. I've done a bit of searching on what people use to make their fruit flavors pop and was wondering what you recommend. I can't tell if maybe I need to add some sort of salt flavor, or sweetener, or something sour.

I'm not so sure you should be undertaking a document like that at such an early stage in your DYI carrier. Give yourself a chance to learn before jumping head first into the fire. The research your doing now is fine as a personal resource but does not really work for a public resource. When I started I had pages and pages of "how to" notes as well as notes on pitfalls, dangers and common mistakes. I did not start dispensing my advice until I was absolutely sure it was correct. I experimented and through failure and success I established what works and what don't. Only then did I give advice, always stating that this is what works for me and may not be suitable to all tastes and techniques. I only published blogs what worked for me and what was getting repetitious to answer live in the forums.

To answer your question as to what makes a juice pop. Regardless of whether it's a fruit, desert candy etc... It all depends on the flavorings and an understanding of additives which you can read in my blogs. But honestly what I found works the best is a good flavor. Not all flavorings are created equal. Some are weak some are strong some taste real some taste artificial some taste nothing like whats described on the label or manufactures description. My best advice is not to add additives to make it pop but try different manufactures flavorings such as TFA, Hangsen, Inawera, Flavor west, Capella, Loranne etc. The real secret to a good mix is finding a good flavoring manufacturer and sticking with it. I myself use Hangsen and inawera as my primary flavorings and sometimes use TFA as flavor notes and that's about it. There are threads dedicated to these flavorings and that would be a good place to start some research.

 

[dannyv45]

No offense to anyone here, like Danny or Hoosier, they are great mixers and DIYers, but I don't think either holds a biochemistry degree and neither have been the lead researchers on any peer reviewed studies.

Absolutely no offence taken. I'm not a chemist I'm just an average Joe that has lots of experience.

 

[Dunder Mifflin]

Here is a list of studies all in one place. Hope this helps.The Ultimate List of E-Cig Studies: Are E-Cigs Actually Safe? *Updated 2/16/14 » onVaping
Also, here is another study, http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2458-14-18.pdf
And here are a bunch more, http://ovalok.org/?page_id=186